Stop the Ray bashing already!

[EJPLAYA]

When Andre Miller abuses Ray, I think its fair to say Celtics got problems. And that $18 mil exp contract is a worse alot when so many teams are pushing hard to get under the cap for 2010 free agency.

If you want to bash someone who has played terrible D in this stretch bash PP. Bash Rondo much of the time. Bash Perk for taking himself out of the game committing stupid needless fouls. Don't bash the only guy other than KG (and House)  who brings it always. I guarantee you that TA wouldn't have made that 3!

Seriously? Rondo is practically the only player on our team right now that consistently "brings it" at every game. How can you honestly say that House, who is playing horrible right now, is playing harder than those guys (Rondo/Pierce)?

Yes seriously. Rondo brings it offensively 90% of the time. Many nights though on defense he doesn't. If you want to point fingers at someone allowing their man to blow past them you better point them at him as well. His typical "poke from behind" defense is maddening because it causes the rest of the defense to break down. At least Ray is doing it at times because his legs are old. Rondo is just playing lazy defense. If you refuse to see that you're just giving him a pass because he does so many other things well.

  Who keeps point guards in front of them all the time without using hand checks and with those pgs running past picks on almost every play? Right now he's probably the odds on favorite for first team all-nba defensive team.

Certainly not Rondo. I'd take him doing it more often than not. He definitely plays poke from behind more than he doesn't. He also has a bad habit of leaving his guy to roam the passing lanes often turning his back on his man and having no idea where he is. This results in a lot of wide open shots. (see Kidd's threes on him the other night) This bad habit results in some steals no doubt, but they overlook the damage it does when he doesn't get it which is most of the time. He very well may get that award due to steals, however I would sure love for him to do it because guys couldn't get by him.

Main point though is you can't rip Ray for not staying in front of his man part of the time and not do the same to Rondo. He gets blown past just as much as Ray does. 

[Onslaught]

Ray is better than KG this year. We going to trade him too?

[snively]

Ray is better than KG this year. We going to trade him too?

When KG has been able to get on the court he's been much more productive than Ray.

[Smitty77]

Following up on Roy's facts, Ray has an Effiency Rating of 4 and 2 in his last two games.  That is horrendous, not matter how attached you are to Ray Ray.

[BASS_THUMPER]

i like ray cause i know he got it in him...he has proven it many times..

[BballTim]

Certainly not Rondo. I'd take him doing it more often than not. He definitely plays poke from behind more than he doesn't. He also has a bad habit of leaving his guy to roam the passing lanes often turning his back on his man and having no idea where he is. This results in a lot of wide open shots. (see Kidd's threes on him the other night) This bad habit results in some steals no doubt, but they overlook the damage it does when he doesn't get it which is most of the time. He very well may get that award due to steals, however I would sure love for him to do it because guys couldn't get by him.

Main point though is you can't rip Ray for not staying in front of his man part of the time and not do the same to Rondo. He gets blown past just as much as Ray does. 

  Are you so sure that Doc tells Rondo to stay with his man and to stay out of the passing lanes? And most of the time when Rondo's man gets by him it's by using a pick. Ray just gets beat straight up. I didn't see the entire game last night but when I saw Rondo on Miller they were usually sending someone over to set a pick to get Miller free. When Ray was on him Portland was just clearing out that area to let Miller take Ray 1v1.

[Onslaught]

Following up on Roy's facts, Ray has an Effiency Rating of 4 and 2 in his last two games.  That is horrendous, not matter how attached you are to Ray Ray.

We're just going to judge him on the last two games? What about that 3 last night? Would we win without it?

Ray is better than KG this year. We going to trade him too?

When KG has been able to get on the court he's been much more productive than Ray.

That's not very often the last two years.

[Bankshot]

I bet Doc will be the only one surprised when Ray is burned out come  playoff time.

[Smitty77]

Onslaught,

I will very gladly go on the entire year if you would like.  Ray has a 14.27 Efficiency Rating for the ENTIRE year, which puts him at 94th in the league.

He is also shooting a career low from 3-point land.  That is his marquee shot and that is NOT a good sign for me.

Smitty77

[EJPLAYA]

Certainly not Rondo. I'd take him doing it more often than not. He definitely plays poke from behind more than he doesn't. He also has a bad habit of leaving his guy to roam the passing lanes often turning his back on his man and having no idea where he is. This results in a lot of wide open shots. (see Kidd's threes on him the other night) This bad habit results in some steals no doubt, but they overlook the damage it does when he doesn't get it which is most of the time. He very well may get that award due to steals, however I would sure love for him to do it because guys couldn't get by him.

Main point though is you can't rip Ray for not staying in front of his man part of the time and not do the same to Rondo. He gets blown past just as much as Ray does. 

  Are you so sure that Doc tells Rondo to stay with his man and to stay out of the passing lanes? And most of the time when Rondo's man gets by him it's by using a pick. Ray just gets beat straight up. I didn't see the entire game last night but when I saw Rondo on Miller they were usually sending someone over to set a pick to get Miller free. When Ray was on him Portland was just clearing out that area to let Miller take Ray 1v1.

Have you really ever had ANY coach tell you not to stay between your man and the basket?! Come on. Rondo is cheating on defense in the lanes. No one would say turning your back on your man and having no clue where he is on the floor is a good thing. Rondo is a gambler. Sometimes it works. Just as often if not more often it doesn't. That's another reason he gets a lot of those long rebounds as he is out in no man's land. I think Doc realizes Rondo is hard headed and figures he'll take the good with the bad and hopefully Rondo will get better over time.

As far as the picks go. Rondo makes almost NO attempt ever to fight through a pick so if you are trying to give an example of good defense that wouldn't be a great one. It is an example of him being lazy on defense not an excuse for him getting blown past. And considering Rondo can't try and poke the ball out from behind you know that isn't what I am referring to.

[BballTim]

Certainly not Rondo. I'd take him doing it more often than not. He definitely plays poke from behind more than he doesn't. He also has a bad habit of leaving his guy to roam the passing lanes often turning his back on his man and having no idea where he is. This results in a lot of wide open shots. (see Kidd's threes on him the other night) This bad habit results in some steals no doubt, but they overlook the damage it does when he doesn't get it which is most of the time. He very well may get that award due to steals, however I would sure love for him to do it because guys couldn't get by him.

Main point though is you can't rip Ray for not staying in front of his man part of the time and not do the same to Rondo. He gets blown past just as much as Ray does. 

  Are you so sure that Doc tells Rondo to stay with his man and to stay out of the passing lanes? And most of the time when Rondo's man gets by him it's by using a pick. Ray just gets beat straight up. I didn't see the entire game last night but when I saw Rondo on Miller they were usually sending someone over to set a pick to get Miller free. When Ray was on him Portland was just clearing out that area to let Miller take Ray 1v1.

Have you really ever had ANY coach tell you not to stay between your man and the basket?! Come on. Rondo is cheating on defense in the lanes. No one would say turning your back on your man and having no clue where he is on the floor is a good thing. Rondo is a gambler. Sometimes it works. Just as often if not more often it doesn't. That's another reason he gets a lot of those long rebounds as he is out in no man's land. I think Doc realizes Rondo is hard headed and figures he'll take the good with the bad and hopefully Rondo will get better over time.

  Again, though, are you saying that you know for sure that Doc doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lanes?

As far as the picks go. Rondo makes almost NO attempt ever to fight through a pick so if you are trying to give an example of good defense that wouldn't be a great one. It is an example of him being lazy on defense not an excuse for him getting blown past. And considering Rondo can't try and poke the ball out from behind you know that isn't what I am referring to.

   If someone's dribbling around the perimeter you can fight through the pick and get back to your man. If someone's cutting across the lane without the ball you can fight through the pick and get back to your man. If someone's driving to the hoop and goes past a pick what player in the game can fight through that pick and get back in front of his man in the 2-3 steps it takes that player to get to the rim? Honestly, which players do you see that can do it on a regular basis, because I'll take a closer look at their games.

  Does, for instance, Ray? I'd guess not. And are you avoiding the main point that I was making? When Rondo was on Miller they were often using picks to get Miller free of Rondo. When Ray was on Miller they were clearing out the side because Miller *didn't need* a pick to get past Ray. If you're watching that happen and coming to the conclusion that Ray is as good at keeping his man in front of him as Rondo then I completely disagree.

[EJPLAYA]

Certainly not Rondo. I'd take him doing it more often than not. He definitely plays poke from behind more than he doesn't. He also has a bad habit of leaving his guy to roam the passing lanes often turning his back on his man and having no idea where he is. This results in a lot of wide open shots. (see Kidd's threes on him the other night) This bad habit results in some steals no doubt, but they overlook the damage it does when he doesn't get it which is most of the time. He very well may get that award due to steals, however I would sure love for him to do it because guys couldn't get by him.

Main point though is you can't rip Ray for not staying in front of his man part of the time and not do the same to Rondo. He gets blown past just as much as Ray does. 

  Are you so sure that Doc tells Rondo to stay with his man and to stay out of the passing lanes? And most of the time when Rondo's man gets by him it's by using a pick. Ray just gets beat straight up. I didn't see the entire game last night but when I saw Rondo on Miller they were usually sending someone over to set a pick to get Miller free. When Ray was on him Portland was just clearing out that area to let Miller take Ray 1v1.

Have you really ever had ANY coach tell you not to stay between your man and the basket?! Come on. Rondo is cheating on defense in the lanes. No one would say turning your back on your man and having no clue where he is on the floor is a good thing. Rondo is a gambler. Sometimes it works. Just as often if not more often it doesn't. That's another reason he gets a lot of those long rebounds as he is out in no man's land. I think Doc realizes Rondo is hard headed and figures he'll take the good with the bad and hopefully Rondo will get better over time.

  Again, though, are you saying that you know for sure that Doc doesn't want Rondo to cheat into the passing lanes?

As far as the picks go. Rondo makes almost NO attempt ever to fight through a pick so if you are trying to give an example of good defense that wouldn't be a great one. It is an example of him being lazy on defense not an excuse for him getting blown past. And considering Rondo can't try and poke the ball out from behind you know that isn't what I am referring to.

   If someone's dribbling around the perimeter you can fight through the pick and get back to your man. If someone's cutting across the lane without the ball you can fight through the pick and get back to your man. If someone's driving to the hoop and goes past a pick what player in the game can fight through that pick and get back in front of his man in the 2-3 steps it takes that player to get to the rim? Honestly, which players do you see that can do it on a regular basis, because I'll take a closer look at their games.

  Does, for instance, Ray? I'd guess not. And are you avoiding the main point that I was making? When Rondo was on Miller they were often using picks to get Miller free of Rondo. When Ray was on Miller they were clearing out the side because Miller *didn't need* a pick to get past Ray. If you're watching that happen and coming to the conclusion that Ray is as good at keeping his man in front of him as Rondo then I completely disagree.

Now you're just trying to avoid the questions and twist what I said BBALL TIM. What I said was that Ray is getting bashed on here because he has old legs and isn't as good at staying in front of his man like he once was. (not that he was ever a defensive player of the year or anything in his prime) My comment was that Ray gives it 100% every game and does a fair job of it against quicker guards (often PG's like Miller) and we shouldn't be picking on the guy. Rondo on the other hand has the physical ability to stay in front of his man but instead chooses to play lazy defense gambling for steals. If anyone should get picked on it is him because he often breaks down the entire defense when he gambles and misses or turns his back on his man.

Of course Doc wants him cheating a bit in his lanes to disrupt. Just a bit though. That wasn't what I said Doc doesn't like. He can't like him refusing to fight through a pick, making a solid attempt to keep his man in front of him playing good "feet" defense, or turning his back on his guy leaving him wide open for shots. Rondo has so many great parts of his game that it is easy to overlook. If he would solve this one problem, which is about attitude and discipline, he would be up there in the discussion of very best PG's in the league vs. the next level tier of guys.

Key Point: When everyone else on the team brings the effort, intensity, and desire that Ray does each game we can then start picking on his deficiencies. 

[Chief]

Ray Allen is the NBA Ladanion Tomlinson. Great one year, ok the next, then it goes downhill. Old age catches everyone, in every sport.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Stop being a blog and discussing things!

The fact that this thread has heated arguments shows that it's not an easy 1-sided argument that the original poster thinks it is.

While I don't think Ray should be bashed, I think there are some valid points that should be made:

-Ray can't create his own shot anymore.  For someone making $19.7 million / year, that's extremely overpaid.

-Ray's defense against high caliber players is AWFUL.  Whoever brought up the point that average statistics are misleading is dead-on!  Against the SG's in the playoffs Ray will be a major liability.

-Ray may bring it 100% every game, but he sure as heck doesn't bring it 100% every play.  There are hordes of plays where he doesn't box out and just stands there, he doesn't chase after loose balls, and he doesn't follow his shot.

The Celtics are quickly getting old and it's showing.  The biggest discussion topic is the team this year.  The second biggest is how to make the transition period.  It's fitting then to have major discussions on Ray because he has the ability to play the biggest role in that transition. 

[Jon]

Two quick things:

1) For all the talk of Ray being a poor defender, I'd like to know exactly who people think is going to be a better defender at the 2 spot.  This league is absolutely full of shooting guards who can score, but how many of them actually make any attempt at playing defense?  Outside of Kobe, D-Wade, and Manu Ginoboli, very few.  Ray actually is one of the better defenders simply because he tries.  I'm shocked how many people on this board take zero consideration into defense when they want to bring matadors like Amare Stoudemire in here who have never been part of anything close to a title contender because they play zero defense.  Related to that, what exactly quantifies a valuable player to some people?  That he looks good on your fantasy team? 

2) This notion that the C's aren't athletic enough to compete is only partially true.  I admit there's some truth to that.  I think that's why we struggled with Atlanta even two years ago.  I think that was also something to do with our size, something that Rasheed and Sheldon help with.  But I also think people are really underestimating the Celtics' motivation right now.  Management's decision to rest anyone on the team who even has the slightest bit of pain has sent a pretty clear message to the players that winning in the regular season isn't a priority.  Thus, it's little wonder they're not kicking butt like they used to.