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Refuting the Excuses
« on: January 21, 2010, 02:22:14 AM »

Offline jadams5214

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The Celtics are playing terrible basketball in recent weeks, there is no arguing that fact - however the reasons for their poor play have caused much debate.  Let's take a logical look at what is wrong with this team ---

Excuse #1 - KG is out and other assorted injuries. There is no denying KG is a vital piece to the Celtic's championship aspirations.  He is an emotional leader, defensive stalwart, improves the offensive ball movement and plays with a fire that is unmatched.  However the team did play well for the most part without KG last year.  They actually were an improved team offensively for stretches of games which helped them overcome his absence on the defensive side of the ball.  They wound up losing a tough 7 game series to the eventual NBA finalist Orlando Magic.  So it's obvious the C's can win without KG they just aren't doing so right now.  Mediocre teams crumble due to injuries, good teams play well despite them like Portland and Houston, CHAMPIONSHIP teams overcome injuries and figure out ways to win with the talent and coaching that they still possess.  People seem to forget that the Celtics still have 2 Hall of Famers and an All Star caliber point guard in their lineup which should be more than enough to win games consistently.

Excuse #2 - Fatigue.  The Celtics are a veteran team.  They have several older players that have been forced to play too many minutes in certain games.  They have struggled mightily when playing back to back games or several games without much rest inbetween.  However they recently had a nice 3 days break before the Dallas game.  The C's proceeded to come out strong before collapsing in the second half despite Dallas being the tired team.  Then tonight after another day off the Celtics once again were dominated after halftime even though it was only their 2nd game in the past 6 days.

Excuse #3 - the Refs, playing young athletic teams and other various excuses.  The refs have been more than fair for the most part.  Against Dallas the C's were the beneficiary of several calls and tonight against Detroit the refs were definitely not a factor.  Playing young, athletic teams can cause the C's trouble but I don't think Detroit falls into that category.

Now that the excuses are out of the way let's examine the REAL reasons for the Celtic's recent struggles ---

Rebounding - The C's are constantly beaten for crucial rebounds, giving the opposing team multiple chances to score.  The rebounding margin isn't always the telling stat, it's when those rebounds occur.  Tonight the Pistons scored several baskets after having 2 or 3 chances.  Possessions like that often wind up being big momentum changers and tonight's offensive rebounds for the Pistons definitely changed the course of the game.  The rebounding issue has been persistent with this team and has shown no signs of improvement.

Turnovers -  The Celtics turn the ball over at an alarming rate. They have veteran players who should know better but wind up committing key turnovers night after night.  Ray and Paul quite often turn the ball over when trying to dribble through defenders instead of passing.  Perk travels or throws the ball away several times per game.  The C's routinely lose the turnover battle and once again that leads to easy buckets for the opposing team.

Lack of Focus/Consistent effort -  There is no other way to explain the numerous 2nd half collapses (usually 3rd quarter) this team has had.  They consistently get big leads over a well played half but give them up with spurts of terrible basketball.  The C's lose focus after getting leads and give other teams confidence when failing to close out the game.  The C's also have begun to miss free throws at an alarming rate which plays right into the lack of focus angle.

Coaching/Leadership - Doc is a well respected coach admired by his peers and players for the most part.  Lately though he has failed miserably in getting through to this team.  He has failed to get the message across to his team about playing hard for 48 minutes.  To see the C's constantly turning the ball over, not getting rebounds, losing big leads, playing lethargic 3rd quarters --- and not being able to do anything about it has to fall on Doc's shoulders at least on some level.  If Doc can't get through what about the Captain Paul Pierce.  He likes to talk about being an elite player and always says the right things about what the team needs to do and how poorly they are playing.  But nothing changes despite the words --- as the Captain and a veteran leader shouldn't Pierce be able to get this team back on track?

The Boston Celtics are struggling mightily and there is no escaping that fact.  Not sure what the answer is but something has to change.  This team won plenty of games last year without KG.  They are a veteran team that is used to dealing with injuries/fatigue and everything else.

Losing back to back games against the Clippers and Warriors were the early signs.  As was blowing a big lead at home against Philly.  The two recent losses to the Hawks seemed to erode the C's confidence.  Losing to the Bulls at home was alarming as they had won only 3 road games all year.  Losing to a Maverick team that had lost 3 of 4 games and playing back to back road games was tough to take.  Losing tonight against a Detroit team more decimated by injuries than the Celtics and that had lost 14 of 17 games is inexcusable.

This Celtic team now has more home losses than they did all of last year.  They can no longer put teams away consistently even when getting big leads.  Teams no longer fear playing against the Celtics, even the dregs of the NBA now feel a win is possible against this once feared team.

The Boston Celtics need to start playing better basketball now before it's too late.  With KG coming back the team needs to regroup and get back to basics.  Instead of whining about injuries, fatigue, the refs or whatever else can be thought of, the C's need to step up and start playing like the NBA Championship caliber team they are so willing to describe themselves as.

The time for excuses is OVER...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 10:00:04 AM by Redz »

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2010, 02:34:53 AM »

Offline anotherbanner

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Well put.

I agree 100%.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 02:52:41 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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I agree as well.

The rebounding and the 3rd quarter collapses bother me the most.

The turnovers are par for the course with this team; it was an issue last year, and the year before that.  We've managed to win despite it before.

Rebounding, though, shouldn't be this bad considering who we have. There are really no excuses for it.

The 3rd quarter collapses are really troubling.  I remember in '08 feeling confident that the Celtics could win big games by virtue of strong 3rd quarter efforts.  If the Celtics could gain a lead in the 3rd quarter with a strong effort, they had a really good chance of winning.  Now, I feel like it doesn't matter how big our lead is at half, we're liable to squander most of it in a third quarter collapse.  We can't afford that kind of play in big games.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 03:12:05 AM »

Offline Tai

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It's kinda like this.

You know how FLCeltsFan always lists the keys to winning each game in her pre-game posts?

The Celtics have probably done all (if even that) of them for only a half, and then do none of them in the 3rd quarter, and maybe a little in the 4th but it's too late by then.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 04:13:05 AM »

Offline dlpin

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I agree with most of what you've said.

But the KG thing is definitely not an excuse, and the numbers are there to prove it.

Win-loss record don't tell you the whole story. Last year with Garnett our point differential was +9.7, without him 3.8. In other words, him alone was responsible for a 5.9 point swing n games. But even that doesn't tell you everything: we went 18-7 without him, but only 8-5 against playoff teams, and that includes a meaningless game against the wizards, a buzzer beater against the sixers and an OT win against Miami.

This season, our point differential with KG was 9.5. In the games that we were missing only KG (and not pierce) the point differential is -0.6. But, again, that doesnt tell the whole story: in the games we were only missing KG from the starting line up we are 3-5. But that includes games against 7 current playoff teams, and only 2 against non playoff teams. That is, we are facing much tougher opponents now than we were last year without KG.


In other words, yes, we are worse than last year without KG, but only negligibly so. Our point differential without KG this year is only 4 points worse than last year, despite a much tougher schedule, Pierce recovering from an injury, and 3 games without Sheed in the bench.

So missing KG is certainly a huge issue, and not an excuse. A much bigger issue than we realized last year because we were playing a much easier schedule without him.

Which is why, at this point, I am not panicking. If in mid february we are still struggling or KG is still out, then Ill panic.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 07:21:15 AM by dlpin »

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 05:59:49 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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Funny thing, three of those thing can be directly linked to KG.



Rebounding - KG has been the Celtics best rebounder.


Leadership - KG is this teams leader.


Focus - It is KG energy and leadership that could right the focus issue.




Now the team is the team on the floor right now.  Someone else needs to step up and lead this team till KG gets back.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 06:19:21 AM »

Offline drza44

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Most of what you've said.

But the KG thing is definitely not an excuse, and the numbers are there to prove it.

Win-loss record don't tell you the whole story. Last year with Garnett our point differential was +9.7, without him 3.8. In other words, him alone was responsible for a 5.9 point swing n games. But even that doesn't tell you everything: we went 18-7 without him, but only 8-5 against playoff teams, and that includes a meaningless game against the wizards, a buzzer beater against the sixers and an OT win against Miami.

This season, our point differential with KG was 9.5. In the games that we were missing only KG (and not pierce) the point differential is -0.6. But, again, that doesnt tell the whole story: in the games we were only missing KG from the starting line up we are 3-5. But that includes games against 7 games against current playoff teams, and only 2 against non playoff teams. That is, we are facing much tougher opponents now than we were last year without KG.


In other words, yes, we are worse than last year without KG, but only negligibly so. Our point differential without KG this year is only 4 points worse than last year, despite a much tougher schedule, Pierce recovering from an injury, and 3 games without Sheed in the bench.

So missing KG is certainly a huge issue, and not an excuse. A much bigger issue than we realized last year because we were playing a much easier schedule without him.

Which is why, at this point, I am not panicking. If in mid february we are still struggling or KG is still out, then Ill panic.

TP.  I've been considering a Vegas analogy for the Celtics without KG, and how some have reacted to how the team does without him. 

2007-08: KG misses 11 games, team goes 9 - 2.  This was like the guy that goes to Vegas for the very first time, sits down at a blackjack table for and gets a few hot chutes, then leaves an hour later up a few hundred bucks.  This guy goes away thinking "this gambling thing is easy", never considering that he only played for a very short time and may have just been lucky (7 of those 9 wins were against teams that averaged less than 25 wins that year).

2008-09: KG essentially misses a third of the season, team wins about 2/3 of its regular season games without him (but score margin drops from ~10 (elite) to ~4 (just-above-average), then team goes 7 - 7 in playoffs with a score margin of 0 and loses in the 2nd round.  This is that same guy going back to Vegas a year later, playing a marathon game of blackjack for 10 hours with some ups and downs before eventually losing his money.  Instead of focusing on the loss, he keeps telling his friends how he almost won some money and still believes that ultimately he can still beat the blackjack odds the next time.  (A lot like I keep reading people on here saying "we almost beat the Magic" without really focusing on the fact that it was in the second round...and we didn't win...against a team that got donkey-kicked in the Finals...by a team that we had donkey-kicked the year before...)

2009-10: KG misses 10 games at a time when some other players are also ouchy and the schedule is fairly rough.  The team looks like garbage and has currently lost 4 of their last 6 games (and 7 of last 11).  This is the Vegas guy finally getting slapped by the downside of blackjack, he sits down confident and the cards just shred him.  He loses hand after hand, and gets up venting about how awful things are, how he must have been cheated, how he's never playing blackjack again.  He can't understand why this is happening, because after all in the last two years when he gambled he either did well or at least well enough to convince himself that he had the game mastered...how could it be so bad this time around?

All along, the guy just didn't consider that Blackjack odds favor the house...just slightly, not so much that the house will win EVERY hand.  Sometimes, if you play short periods and get lucky, you can actually take the house.  But if you keep playing, eventually the house wins.  And sometimes, the house wins VICIOUSLY to make up for those previous hot spells. 

Same way, Celtics without KG are just playing with bad odds.  Not awful odds...they don't turn into the Nets without him, but in the end they are just a slightly-above-average team without him.  And just like they had some success, they're also going to have some failures.  But the great thing is, knock on wood, he comes back this week.  When he's on the court, suddenly the odds are stacked back in our favor.  Suddenly we're winning more than 80% of the time, and it's not a fluke because we've seen it for 3 straight years now.  Just like before, even with our full team together you will have some cold spells or bad hands every so often, but this time we'd be the ones with the odds in our favor.  If our whole starting 5 is healthy, then WE'RE the house.

And of course, the house wins in the end.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 06:19:33 AM »

Offline makaveli

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Funny thing, three of those thing can be directly linked to KG.



Rebounding - KG has been the Celtics best rebounder.


Leadership - KG is this teams leader.


Focus - It is KG energy and leadership that could right the focus issue.




Now the team is the team on the floor right now.  Someone else needs to step up and lead this team till KG gets back.
Perk has been our best rebounder, I would rank KG right up there with Rondo and Pierce
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2010, 07:03:37 AM »

Offline Jeff

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good post - I don't agree with every point, but you brought up a lot of good points
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"Know what I pray for? The strength to change what I can, the inability to accept what I can't, and the incapacity to tell the difference." - Calvin (Bill Watterson)

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2010, 08:00:06 AM »

Offline 2short

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good post!
there was a point last night when 'sheed was the only c near defensive (defensive) board with 4 pistons around him
he kept the ball alive a few times but pistons ended up with offensive rebound
-in that amount of time no celtic near went to box out or even go for ball

if i'm doc or kg for that matter i'm replaying that section with a stop watch and showing up each player
gut check time for the vets!

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2010, 08:18:47 AM »

Offline housecall

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At this point i think KG needs to send a message to some others like we saw Glen Davis(tears) on the frontpage.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #11 on: January 21, 2010, 08:29:41 AM »

Online slamtheking

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good post!
there was a point last night when 'sheed was the only c near defensive (defensive) board with 4 pistons around him
he kept the ball alive a few times but pistons ended up with offensive rebound
-in that amount of time no celtic near went to box out or even go for ball

if i'm doc or kg for that matter i'm replaying that section with a stop watch and showing up each player
gut check time for the vets!
excellent point.  I was noticing similar situations several times last night and in the recent stretch of games-->multiple opposition players crashing the boards and only 1 or 2 C's on the defensive glass.  rondo, Ray and PP are all taking off without the rebound being secured and essentially turning their man loose on the offensive board.  I'll trade off a couple of fast buckets for securing a lot more rebounds. 

On the flip side, no one on the C's is going to the offensive glass on a regular basis except BBD or Shelden.  Occasionally Rondo and TA but C's are constantly conceding the rebounds to the other team just to get back on D.  I understand the need to be back on D but having someone in the paint to either get the rebound or pressure the outlet pass can work wonders.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2010, 09:14:44 AM »

Offline GreenFaith1819

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Good Post, Jadams.

I certainly don't have Green-Tinted glasses on to the point where I cannot agree with most of your points.

My thing is: What is the solution? I know that none of us here are in the decision-making process, but what can we realistically think will happen?

Fire Doc? After all, this team appears to be in a similar situation as New Orleans...I stress similar, because NOH also counts itself as a up and coming contender. And if we fire Doc who can we realistically bring in?

As for me, I say No to firing Doc.

Do we do a Major Trade? And if so are we prepared for more rocky games while this "Major Trade" settles in?

I certainly agree with KG or no KG...this team played well without him last year...it's truly baffling to me. It is as if we've lost our fire. KG will certainly bring that back, but what has happened to Perk and Rondo stepping up in leadership roles like they did last year in the playoffs?

Someone mentioned that ATL took our confidence. May be some validity to that, but I wouldn't gloat if I were ATL. Until they beat us (or ORL or CLE) in a seven game series I cannot call them contenders.

In some games the Refs had a hand....and this point leads me to Sheed:

A few threads place some blame on Sheed...say he's coasting right now. I just don't know. The man did in fact state when we got him in July that he was not the same...not as much lift, not as good in the post, etc. Seems like age-related stuff if you ask me.

In the end, I still firmly believe that Sheed is and will be a big plus for us..even more so than Bill Walton back in the day. Bill was awesome don't get me wrong - but only for a season, due to injuries. We have Sheed to spell our Bigs for next two yrs.

Which leads me to another point - is this team better with Scal starting and bringing Sheed in? Just a thought.

Initially I believed that Doc was happy with him shooting the threes, but when he was not hitting them then that became an issue. Sheed is certainly good in stretches though, like the last Toronto game.

Rebounding has been mentioned here - I certainly agree. Funny thing is that rebounding is all about desire. It appears that at times the Celtics don't want it.

Again good post Jadams. I don't want you or anyone else here to believe that I am not as concerned as you all are - it's just that I really believe a light is at the end of the tunnel - and it's not a train.

And that light doesn't involve firing Doc or doing a major trade.

This team needs its desire back, and it's beyond KG. They need to get back to playing Celtics Ball. True Celtics Ball allowed us to impose our Will on opponents, no matter who they were..and regardless of who we had.

I vividly remember game 4 of 2007-2008 Finals...it just looked to me that at one point the Celtics collectively made up their minds that they were going to TAKE that game from LA...and they did. Their body language showed it.

This same swagger and confidence was present after KG went down last year..and into the playoffs.

They need to get that back - regardless of KG.

Just venting here, people. I slept off this game last night, but the bitter taste is still there.

But I still believe that Banner 18 is coming to us in June 2010.

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #13 on: January 21, 2010, 09:23:53 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

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KG alone will not fix the problems this team has

Re: Refuting the EXCUSES
« Reply #14 on: January 21, 2010, 09:25:38 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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KG alone will not fix the problems this team has


No.



But the hope has to be that his leadership leads some of the other players to get back to playing the type of ball we expect.