Author Topic: Which two Celtics would you keep?  (Read 9951 times)

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Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2010, 07:59:25 AM »

Offline Slugger

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Atlanta -- JJ + Smith
Boston -- Rondo + Garnett
Charlotte -- Henderson + Brown
Chicago -- Rose + Noah
Cleveland -- Bron + Varejao
Dallas -- Dirk + Marion
Denver -- Melo + Nene
Detroit -- Daye + Stuckey
Golden State -- Randolph + Curry
Houston -- Yao + Scola
Indiana -- Granger + Hibbert
LA Clippers -- Griffin + Gordon
LA Lakers -- Kobe + Gasol
Memphis -- Gasol + Thabeet (Gay or Thabeet? Tough one)
Miami -- Wade + Beasley
Milwaukee -- Bogut + Jennings
Minnesota -- Love + Big Al
New Orleans -- Paul + Collison
New Jersey -- Lopez + Harris
New York -- Gallinari + Chandler
Oklahoma -- Durant + Westbrook
Orlando -- Dwight + Pietrus (Ryan Anderson or Pietrus?)
Philadelphia -- Iggy + Young
Phoenix -- Nash + Amare
Portland -- Oden + Roy
Sacramento -- Tyreke + Thompson
San Antonio -- Duncan + Ginobili
Toronto -- Bosh + Calderon
Utah -- Deron + Boozer
Washington -- Haywood + Miller

Nice list, Who. TP as usual.

Couple of queries on your selections though.

Firstly, concerning the Bobcats you have listed the 2 Rooks over a vet borderline all-star in Gerald Wallace?

Next, you have Shaun Marion ahead of Jason 'the Jet" Terry for Dallas.

For the Pistons you have listed Austin Daye.  WHO?

Gallinari and Chandler ahead of David Lee.

And do you really think that Portland would take Oden over Aldridge?

Love to hear your reasons.

Cheers

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2010, 08:12:54 AM »

Offline RJ87

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pierce and rondo

Yup.

As much as I love KG, he's not gettin any younger and those knees are becoming looming question marks.

I'd also hate to see Perk go, but PP is still the face of the Celtics.
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C: Kristaps Porzingis/Bobby Portis/James Wiseman

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2010, 09:50:03 AM »

Offline Eja117

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For the purposes of the game I find Pierce and Rondo to be the most difficult to replace.  I thought about Perk for a while because it's nice to have one of the top 5 defensive centers in the league, but fantasy bball has taught me it's not THAT hard to find a center that averages something like 10/10 and 2 blks. Finding one that is as young as Perk with major playoff experience is something different, but I bet he'll be available to draft in the 3rd round or so.....wait a second.   He makes almost no money whatsoever.

Rondo still can't shoot and a ton of excellent pgs just joined the league.

Hmmm. I could keep Perk, try to draft Rondo in the first round....but Rondo makes no money too.

OOOOOOOHHHHHhhhhhh.  Loneliness and 100 tacos and this thread are a dangerous combination


Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2010, 10:02:38 AM »

Kiorrik

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For the purposes of the game I find Pierce and Rondo to be the most difficult to replace.  I thought about Perk for a while because it's nice to have one of the top 5 defensive centers in the league, but fantasy bball has taught me it's not THAT hard to find a center that averages something like 10/10 and 2 blks. Finding one that is as young as Perk with major playoff experience is something different, but I bet he'll be available to draft in the 3rd round or so.....wait a second.   He makes almost no money whatsoever.

Rondo still can't shoot and a ton of excellent pgs just joined the league.

Hmmm. I could keep Perk, try to draft Rondo in the first round....but Rondo makes no money too.

OOOOOOOHHHHHhhhhhh.  Loneliness and 100 tacos and this thread are a dangerous combination


100 tacos + any situation = lethal.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2010, 10:44:59 AM »

Offline P2

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Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2010, 10:53:59 AM »

Offline scoop

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Atlanta -- JJ + Smith
Boston -- Rondo + Garnett
Charlotte -- Henderson + Brown
Chicago -- Rose + Noah
Cleveland -- Bron + Varejao
Dallas -- Dirk + Marion
Denver -- Melo + Nene
Detroit -- Daye + Stuckey
Golden State -- Randolph + Curry
Houston -- Yao + Scola
Indiana -- Granger + Hibbert
LA Clippers -- Griffin + Gordon
LA Lakers -- Kobe + Gasol
Memphis -- Gasol + Thabeet (Gay or Thabeet? Tough one)
Miami -- Wade + Beasley
Milwaukee -- Bogut + Jennings
Minnesota -- Love + Big Al
New Orleans -- Paul + Collison
New Jersey -- Lopez + Harris
New York -- Gallinari + Chandler
Oklahoma -- Durant + Westbrook
Orlando -- Dwight + Pietrus (Ryan Anderson or Pietrus?)
Philadelphia -- Iggy + Young
Phoenix -- Nash + Amare
Portland -- Oden + Roy
Sacramento -- Tyreke + Thompson
San Antonio -- Duncan + Ginobili
Toronto -- Bosh + Calderon
Utah -- Deron + Boozer
Washington -- Haywood + Miller

Nice list, Who. TP as usual.

Couple of queries on your selections though.

Firstly, concerning the Bobcats you have listed the 2 Rooks over a vet borderline all-star in Gerald Wallace?

Next, you have Shaun Marion ahead of Jason 'the Jet" Terry for Dallas.

For the Pistons you have listed Austin Daye.  WHO?

Gallinari and Chandler ahead of David Lee.

And do you really think that Portland would take Oden over Aldridge?

Love to hear your reasons.

Cheers

Yeps, excellent list.

I'm not sure what to do about Charlotte. They're in a mess for the future so they probably should seize this opportunity to bottom out and start over and I like Brown a lot, so I could go this way. I'd also consider retaining Felton.

Dallas - I'm not sure what to do. I'd probably go with Dirk and Beaubois. Or a smaller contract like Howard or Dampier.

Detroit - They need to get rid of Prince, Hamilton and Villanueva, so it makes sense to build for the future. Stuckey and Daye/Jerebko/Bynum for me.

Houston - Yao + Landry

Indiana - Hibbert is very good on the offensive end, but a massive liability defensively and rebounding wise. Difficult to pick anyone else over him though.

New Jersey - I'd pick Courtney Lee over Harris.

New York - Lee + Gallinari.

Orlando - Anderson/Gortat/Bass over Pietrus.

Philadephia - Easily Speights + Iguodala for me.

Portland - I'm convinced Pritchard would protect Oden over anyone else besides Roy. Too much potential.

Sacramento - Tough choice between Casspi and Thompson.

Toronto - Not sure what to do. Hedo, Bargnani, Calderon and Jack are all bad contracts in my view. Bosh and DeRozan/Johnson, I guess.  

Washington - No interest in protecting Miller. Haywood and a small contract like McGuire or Young.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2010, 10:54:27 AM »

Offline Who

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Firstly, concerning the Bobcats you have listed the 2 Rooks over a vet borderline all-star in Gerald Wallace?

Next, you have Shaun Marion ahead of Jason 'the Jet" Terry for Dallas.

For the Pistons you have listed Austin Daye.  WHO?

Gallinari and Chandler ahead of David Lee.

And do you really think that Portland would take Oden over Aldridge?

Love to hear your reasons.

Cheers
Charlotte

Gerald Wallace was touch and go. I could just as easily be convinced to put him in instead of Gerald Henderson. The idea was just to clear as many contracts as possible and start with a blank slate.

Gerald Wallace is playing excellent basketball on that Bobcats at the moment but I'm still unsure of how effective Gerald Wallace would be on a very good-to-elite team. He wouldn't have the touches, play calls, isolations, or shot attempts that he gets in Charlotte. So lower scoring. Also, his current rebounding stats are also wholly deceiving because the amount of time he's playing at PF this season + the amount of time he's playing alongside a non-rebounding big (Diaw) in small ball lineups. So the rebounding would drop back to normal levels (above average for SF) too. Those two losses in contributions would dramatically alter his effectiveness.

Still, he'd be a good player who make a large contribution defensively + good contributions on the glass and offensively (as a slasher). A very good player who is close, a notch or two below, to being an All-Star but not nearly as productive as player we see in Charlotte this season. I'm not sure whether keeping that player or gaining that cap space is the best option but I decided to go with the cap space.

Create a blank slate and start from scratch ... which the Bobcats should be doing.

New York

The 2010 free agency plan is still their best way forward (LeBron, Wade, Bosh not available through this draft idea). Wilson Chandler and Gallinari are both rookie scale contracts and allow the Knicks to have maximum flexibility. So the Knicks can sign two max contracts + take a few more low priced prospects in this make-believe-draft.

With no Jeffries or Curry on the books, the Knicks could maybe keep Lee + Gallinari and still have enough money for two max contracts. You'd have to do out the math to be sure. I think you'd likely find better options by going with Gallinari + Chandler + low priced picks in the draft (non-protected high first round picks on other teams, build a true supporting cast on the cheap).

Dallas

I would absolutely love to see Jason Terry play the point guard position alongside a playmaking a wing. The role Mo Williams gets to play in Cleveland. He's a superb shooter, does an excellent job executing the offense, a good scorer and a good defender. He is a very good player in that type of situation. A near All-Star.

However, I'm not anywhere near as big a fan of his game when he's the best playmaker on the team (like he was before Kidd arrived when starting at PG for Dallas) or when he's playing as a two guard. I think his lack of size, defense and rebounding negate a lot of his offensive value as a two guard. And, his lack of ability as a creator limits his value as a point guard when there's nobody else in the lineup who brings that ability. It makes it too easy for the opposition, a top defensive team, to contain your team's offense.

Since that playmaker isn't on the Mavs roster and isn't likely to be available in the draft (Stephen Jackson? Not really, maybe Hedo Turkoglu though), I don't think Jason Terry is that valuable a pick. Paul Pierce would fit the bill but I doubt he lasts long enough in the draft for the Mavs to select him.

Anyway, the rest of the team -- Josh Howard has declined considerably as a rebounder and defender. His shot selection and scoring efficiency have also gotten worse. So I ruled him out as the second pick behind Dirk. Kidd was ruled out due to his age. That only left Shawn Marion. A Marion + Dirk forward duo is an interesting combination to build around due to their talents + flexibility lineup wise (Dirk at C + Marion at PF in small ball lineups, or, Dirk at PF and Marion at SF in bigger lineups).

Portland

I'd say it's 50-50 between who Kevin Pritchard would actually chose ... but I think Greg Oden is already the superior player vs Aldridge. His phenomenal rebounding + very good and still improving defensive game + his highly efficient, good, and still developing offensive game are extremely valuable.

Greg Oden gives a team a backbone. Some steel. A guy who can control a game defensively + on the glass. That combined with Brandon Roy's offensive brilliance is an excellent combination to build around.

Detroit

I didn't want to keep any of Detroit's overpriced contracts -- Prince, Rip, Gordon, Villanueva, Maxiell -- and the best two prospects left on their squad after that are Stuckey and Daye so I went with them.

Overall

Gerald Wallace is the only one there that I could go either way on. Similar to Thabeet or Gay in Memphis (don't want to pay Gay, not a fan of Mayo as a SG, Conley disappointing). Or the Orlando situation (Lewis, Nelson, Pietrus, Vince, or Ryan Anderson) where I could easily end up picking any of those five players.

Actually, maybe OJ Mayo and build around him at the point. I'd like that. So Mayo + Gasol or Thabeet for Memphis.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2010, 11:00:18 AM by Who »

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2010, 10:59:10 AM »

Offline Who

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Dallas - I'm not sure what to do. I'd probably go with Dirk and Beaubois. Or a smaller contract like Howard or Dampier.
Oh, Beaubois, I completely overlooked him.

He'd be my second choice for the Mavericks along with Dirk. Good defender with excellent defensive potential + explosive scorer/shooter. Very nice prospect.

I hope Dallas go back to starting him alongside Jason Kidd. I thought that was a more interesting backcourt duo than Barea + Kidd.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2010, 11:15:23 AM »

Offline Who

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Indiana - Hibbert is very good on the offensive end, but a massive liability defensively and rebounding wise. Difficult to pick anyone else over him though.
The lesser of other evils ... that's why I selected him too.

Maybe Brandon Rush? Or Hansbrough?

I think Brandon Rush may have been the better choice there. Defense, rebounding, some shooting ability. More useful in the long term than a flawed player like Hibbert. Yeah, I'll change Rush to be second pick.

Houston - Yao + Landry
I went with Luis Scola because I think the present tense is more important than the future with Yao Ming.

Carl Landry was next on my list. He has more value long term than Scola or anyone else on the Rockets.

New Jersey - I'd pick Courtney Lee over Harris.
I'm not a big fan of Devin Harris at all ... but Lee's subpar play this season has shook me. I was expecting him to be a 15-17 point per game scorer on a horrible offensive team like the Nets. Plus his usual brand of defense.

I'm thinking Harris is the safer choice. He'll start playing quality defense again once he's surrounded by better players. Worst case, he goes back to the Devin Harris we saw in Dallas. Best case, the Nets find a playmaker on the wing to offset his inabilities as a floor general.

The other name I was contemplating was Terrence Williams but I haven't seen enough of him this season (Nets have been too ugly to watch past the first quarter far too often this season) to select him over Harris.


Philadephia - Easily Speights + Iguodala for me.

Speights has the offensive game + the rebounding. Thaddeus Young brings more defense + excellent transition play.

Do you think Speights will ever become a good defender? That's the only thing holding me back from picking him ahead of Young.

Toronto - Not sure what to do. Hedo, Bargnani, Calderon and Jack are all bad contracts in my view. Bosh and DeRozan/Johnson, I guess.  
DeRozan would be a very good pick. More upside than Calderon.

I went with Calderon because I think the Raps could acquire a bunch of defenders/rebounders + another scorer in the draft. Use more of a structured offense to take advantage of Calderon's decision making ability + hide his lack of creativity. I think that type of a roster could become a dangerous side very quickly. Good chance to build a 50+ team straight away, maybe even a contender.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #39 on: January 10, 2010, 02:46:56 PM »

Offline Eja117

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For the purposes of the game I find Pierce and Rondo to be the most difficult to replace.  I thought about Perk for a while because it's nice to have one of the top 5 defensive centers in the league, but fantasy bball has taught me it's not THAT hard to find a center that averages something like 10/10 and 2 blks. Finding one that is as young as Perk with major playoff experience is something different, but I bet he'll be available to draft in the 3rd round or so.....wait a second.   He makes almost no money whatsoever.

Rondo still can't shoot and a ton of excellent pgs just joined the league.

Hmmm. I could keep Perk, try to draft Rondo in the first round....but Rondo makes no money too.

OOOOOOOHHHHHhhhhhh.  Loneliness and 100 tacos and this thread are a dangerous combination


100 tacos + any situation = lethal.
Unless you own a Taco Bell

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #40 on: January 10, 2010, 04:01:42 PM »

Kiorrik

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Unless you own a Taco Bell
...

Great. I just ate, but now I feel like taco's.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2010, 09:08:26 AM »

Offline slamtheking

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I think you have to go Rondo and Perk.  They're young, talented and less money than the big 3 who are nearing the end of their careers.

Based on the premise, it'll be easier to fill in the 2, 3 and 4 positions since the good 1's and 5's will be retained by their teams.  Plenty of good wings and PFs to pick from at least in the 1st round and probably still a very good selection in round 2 as well. 

The interesting concept is how expiring deals would come into play at the end of the year. 
* Ray's contract is up so he's no longer a high-priced vet.  Is he now a more-desired commodity since he's probably got another couple of years left in him and can be negotiated at an appropriate salary range for his remaining skills? 
* PP is now an expiring deal but an expensive one.  Would he get picked in the 1st round?  Maybe not, a lot of money tied up in a aging vet but if he doesn't work out, it frees up a lot of money immediately.
* KG probably lasts until round 2 since he's owed a lot of money and has some health issues.

By keeping Rondo and Perk, C's will have a shot at also getting back one of their big 3, if not 2 of them (PP [and possibly KG] would probably still be on the board for them to pick in round 1 and Ray will probably be around for round 3.  The question is, would the C's want to rebuild what they currently have or go young and get a younger player that can grow with Rondo and Perk.


Personally, I'd go the younger route and build a team that would contend for 6-8 years based on Rondo/Perk and a couple of young up-and-comers in rounds 1 and 2.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2010, 05:58:11 PM »

Offline scoop

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The lesser of other evils ... that's why I selected him too.

Maybe Brandon Rush? Or Hansbrough?

I think Brandon Rush may have been the better choice there. Defense, rebounding, some shooting ability. More useful in the long term than a flawed player like Hibbert. Yeah, I'll change Rush to be second pick.

I'm not sure, difficult decision.

Hansbrough can be a good scoring role-player once he learns to finish plays and starts hitting the jumper. Surprisingly decent rebounding and defence (stronger body than I thought). Solid 3rd big at least, unless he never learns to finish.

Rush is very passive offensively and more streaky as a shooter than I expected him to be. His defence is also inconsistent, he's often lazy fighting picks. Useful player though and if he becomes a more accurate shooter he'll probably become the more valuable of the three.

Hibbert needs to be paired with a defensive/rebounding big. Pretty much like Smits with Davis. The game has changed since Rik Smits days though, Hibbert would still be a defensive liability and not someone you can play +30 minutes every game.

Though decision, none of them is a quality starter but they'll probably stay around as modest starters/top rotation players for many years. I don't think one can go much wrong (or right) with any pick.


Houston - Yao + Landry
I went with Luis Scola because I think the present tense is more important than the future with Yao Ming.

Carl Landry was next on my list. He has more value long term than Scola or anyone else on the Rockets.[/quote]

Yes, Scola is an equally good pick.

New Jersey - I'd pick Courtney Lee over Harris.
I'm not a big fan of Devin Harris at all ... but Lee's subpar play this season has shook me. I was expecting him to be a 15-17 point per game scorer on a horrible offensive team like the Nets. Plus his usual brand of defense.

I'm thinking Harris is the safer choice. He'll start playing quality defense again once he's surrounded by better players. Worst case, he goes back to the Devin Harris we saw in Dallas. Best case, the Nets find a playmaker on the wing to offset his inabilities as a floor general.

The other name I was contemplating was Terrence Williams but I haven't seen enough of him this season (Nets have been too ugly to watch past the first quarter far too often this season) to select him over Harris.[/quote]

Agreed, the Nets were actually enjoyable to watch when they were decimated with injuries under Frank but their level of play has been deteriorating ever since.

IMO Lee is playing okay but in a huge shooting slump. I think he'll improve in due time though - part of it will correct itself. Then he's suffering from trying to create his shot off the dribble too much, he needs a better playmaker to play off.


Philadephia - Easily Speights + Iguodala for me.

Speights has the offensive game + the rebounding. Thaddeus Young brings more defense + excellent transition play.

Do you think Speights will ever become a good defender? That's the only thing holding me back from picking him ahead of Young.[/quote]

Good no, but I think he'll be decent. Has great tools for it, needs coaching and to pick up his intensity. Young is an equally good pick, but it'd force me to find good outside shooting from the PG/PF spots.

DeRozan would be a very good pick. More upside than Calderon.

I went with Calderon because I think the Raps could acquire a bunch of defenders/rebounders + another scorer in the draft. Use more of a structured offense to take advantage of Calderon's decision making ability + hide his lack of creativity. I think that type of a roster could become a dangerous side very quickly. Good chance to build a 50+ team straight away, maybe even a contender.

Fair enough, with the right personnel surrounding him Calderon can become a very productive point-guard. But I'm not sure if you can add those type of 2 ways wing players in this draft.

Re: Which two Celtics would you keep?
« Reply #43 on: January 11, 2010, 10:54:24 PM »

Offline ManchesterCelticsFan

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I would keep Rondo and Perkins because of their youth and playing the two hardest positions to find good/quality/potential-all-star players. 2 years ago it would be KG/PP no doubt even if you want to take the 2009-2010 version of Rondo and Perkins and compare them to the 2007-2008 KG/PP. The difference now is the window is 2 years (this year and next) versus 4 years, combined with KG's nagging knee injury and the possibility that he may never be healthy enough play a full season and in the playoffs again and the fact that we already got 1 championship out of this group. KG even when healthy may never be the same.