Injuries ... A Mixed Blessing In Disguise?

[Bahku]

While enjoying tonight's game from the comfort of my favorite recliner, (and watching the blizzard raging mercilessly outside my window), I began thinking of what a great boost it was to the deep bench players, (and even the rest), to dig in and win a game without the assistance of two "superstars", one of the best PG's in the game, and a formiddable new addition in 'Quis.

Yes, the Raptors are not an "elite" team as such, but they have proven to give us troubles at times, even while our missing three starters were healthy and on the floor, and they have some really great weapons offensively in Bosh, Bargnani and Turkoglu. Let's face it, without Pierce, KG, Rondo, and 'Quis, any team in the NBA can beat us, if playing their best, (while we're not).

I also began thinking about late in the regular season, when Doc may want to rest the starters some and yet also want the best record possible to insure a home-court advantage. The experience and minutes that the deep-bench guys are getting now, could end up being priceless later on, when we may need production from them that's even more important than the present situation.

What if, (God forbid), one of the starters goes down during the playoffs? This experience now could be just what they need to feel better about being put in a similar situation down the road ... successes now could be the seed planted in their brains that gives them an extra boost of confidence later, when there may be much more on the line.

Even the team as a whole benefits from extra confidence on the bench ... it's contagious, and to know that they can come through when called upon, can only be a good thing, team-wise and individually. There's also the consideration of giving KG and Paul a little time off ... this may also be a help late in the season, and may give them a bit more longevity in keeping their legs under them, and a bit more staying-power in the playoffs.

So while I was once feeling quite sorry for myself about the missing players and the current situation, I now have begun to see that this may truly be a blessing-in-disguise ... and a big one at that. Wow ... could it be possible that, despite all my efforts to the contrary, I'm finally becoming an optimist? Go figure.

[wdleehi]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

[nickagneta]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Gotta agree.

History shows that many injuries can be overcome in the short term or one game but that over the long term talent levels out and when Pierce, Rondo, Daniels and KG aren't playing, there's a heck of a lot less talent on the court.

Glad to see the team win one for the injured guys. Be nice to see happen one more time against Miami. There after, I want the regulars because otherwise, things could get ugly.

[Bahku]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Well, that's certainly the "half-empty" outlook, but it is what it is, and I still think there's much positive to be achieved here, despite the injuries.

[wdleehi]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Well, that's certainly the "half-empty" outlook, but it is what it is, and I still think there's much positive to be achieved here, despite the injuries.

The only good thing that come out of this is the games missed will give the older Celtics fresher legs through the playoffs and the trade bait players will do something that tricks another GM (I am looking at you Wallace) into thinking they are good.

[Bahku]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Gotta agree.

History shows that many injuries can be overcome in the short term or one game but that over the long term talent levels out and when Pierce, Rondo, Daniels and KG aren't playing, there's a heck of a lot less talent on the court.

Glad to see the team win one for the injured guys. Be nice to see happen one more time against Miami. There after, I want the regulars because otherwise, things could get ugly.

Where did I say I didn't "want the regulars"? That's not what I said or even inferred ... I mean, come on, you honestly think I'm happy about not having Paul, KG and Rondo?!? I'm saying that there is nothing we can do about it, but we CAN focus on the positives to be gained from a negative situation. We can sit back and say "Oh, isn't this terrible ... we're nothing until they come back" or we can see that the bench players can take up the slack and win a game, get some valuable experience and confidence in the process, and get some chemistry going with the starters that remain. Sorry, but there is plenty positive to be had here, and I personally see no point of just focusing on the negatives that we're missing three starters. Of COURSE we want them back as soon as possible, but in the mean-time, let's make the most of a tough situation!

[Bahku]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Well, that's certainly the "half-empty" outlook, but it is what it is, and I still think there's much positive to be achieved here, despite the injuries.

The only good thing that come out of this is the games missed will give the older Celtics fresher legs through the playoffs and the trade bait players will do something that tricks another GM (I am looking at you Wallace) into thinking they are good.

U-huh ... guess I'll stay positive, thanks.   

[nickagneta]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Gotta agree.

History shows that many injuries can be overcome in the short term or one game but that over the long term talent levels out and when Pierce, Rondo, Daniels and KG aren't playing, there's a heck of a lot less talent on the court.

Glad to see the team win one for the injured guys. Be nice to see happen one more time against Miami. There after, I want the regulars because otherwise, things could get ugly.

Where did I say I didn't "want the regulars"? That's not what I said or even inferred ... I mean, come on, you honestly think I'm happy about not having Paul, KG and Rondo?!? I'm saying that there is nothing we can do about it, but we CAN focus on the positives to be gained from a negative situation. We can sit back and say "Oh, isn't this terrible ... we're nothing until they come back" or we can see that the bench players can take up the slack and win a game, get some valuable experience and confidence in the process, and get some chemistry going with the starters that remain. Sorry, but there is plenty positive to be had here, and I personally see no point of just focusing on the negatives that we're missing three starters. Of COURSE we want them back as soon as possible, but in the mean-time, let's make the most of a tough situation!

Gee what spawned this?

Did you jump down wdleehi's throat when he disagreed with you?

As a matter of fact, I didn't comment directly on a single thing you said.

All I said is I agree with wdleehi that I don't see injuries as being a blessing in disguise. That too many injuries might be overcome for a short time but that eventually it will lead to worse things and that I would be happy when the guys aren't injured.

I didn't say you didn't want them back. I didn't infer you didn't want them back. I didn't even mention you or THINK OF YOU OR ANYTHING YOU WROTE when I typed that.

Is it good to look for good in bad situations? Well of course it is!! I just never see such things as blessings in disguise when it comes to injuries or people being hurt. I see them as obstacles to overcome. Tough times to get past as well as can be. That's all.

WOW!!!

[Bahku]

No.


When guys got hurt in the past and allowed player to show that they were NBA level players or higher, that was almost good.



This is not good.  Too many guys out.  A lot of players that will have to be worked back in. 

Gotta agree.

History shows that many injuries can be overcome in the short term or one game but that over the long term talent levels out and when Pierce, Rondo, Daniels and KG aren't playing, there's a heck of a lot less talent on the court.

Glad to see the team win one for the injured guys. Be nice to see happen one more time against Miami. There after, I want the regulars because otherwise, things could get ugly.

Where did I say I didn't "want the regulars"? That's not what I said or even inferred ... I mean, come on, you honestly think I'm happy about not having Paul, KG and Rondo?!? I'm saying that there is nothing we can do about it, but we CAN focus on the positives to be gained from a negative situation. We can sit back and say "Oh, isn't this terrible ... we're nothing until they come back" or we can see that the bench players can take up the slack and win a game, get some valuable experience and confidence in the process, and get some chemistry going with the starters that remain. Sorry, but there is plenty positive to be had here, and I personally see no point of just focusing on the negatives that we're missing three starters. Of COURSE we want them back as soon as possible, but in the mean-time, let's make the most of a tough situation!

Gee what spawned this?

Did you jump down wdleehi's throat when he disagreed with you?

As a matter of fact, I didn't comment directly on a single thing you said.

All I said is I agree with wdleehi that I don't see injuries as being a blessing in disguise. That too many injuries might be overcome for a short time but that eventually it will lead to worse things and that I would be happy when the guys aren't injured.

I didn't say you didn't want them back. I didn't infer you didn't want them back. I didn't even mention you or THINK OF YOU OR ANYTHING YOU WROTE when I typed that.

Is it good to look for good in bad situations? Well of course it is!! I just never see such things as blessings in disguise when it comes to injuries or people being hurt. I see them as obstacles to overcome. Tough times to get past as well as can be. That's all.

WOW!!!

What "spawned this"? Uh, let's see ... maybe that what I said in my OP was completely misinterpreted to mean that I think it's good that we're without our starters? What I said was that there's much good that can come from it, not that I like it this way. We have no choice, they're out, but I am one who believes nothing happens without a positive purpose, and that it's better this happens now than right before the playoffs, or during the playoffs. If you'll take a moment to notice, I quoted BOTH of you, not just YOU, so my reply was to BOTH, OK? And since when was a reply jumping down your throat? Please don't over-react just cuz it's ME.

[dasandruler]

No question mark: blessing in disguise.  Now if the only tickets for the game you can score are the upcoming 2 or 3 then: No franklin way!....we'll get destroyed...yaddayaha...starters ASAP---Its only a blessing because Doc is a stubborn dude.  Tryin to get him to put in the bench is like trying to get big sheed off the 3pt line.  I know most are nervous nances w/o the big 2.5, but this is the only way to force their azz to be good pups and take their medicine.  Lets go doc--I wanna see da bench earn that money, and Im still luvn it.

[twinbree]

TP for a positive. I agree. Injuries are never good but sometimes the silver lining to be found is the improved play and confidence of the guys who have to play a bigger role in the meantime. And hopefully that keeps teams from rushing back injured players when the reserves are doing well.

[Who]

No, I don't think so. Injuries can have a silver lining by giving younger players an opportunity to show they belong but I don't think that's happening, or will happen, here for Boston.

(1) The Celtics main rotation players are all veterans -- Eddie House, Marquis Daniels, Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis. The starting five. And to a lesser degree Scalabrine + Tony Allen. They've all been around the block and know what they're capable of.

(2) The remaining players aren't good enough to justify a rotation spot. JR Giddens, Bill Walker, Lestor Hudson.

(3) And, on a different note, Shelden Williams, who is better off in a limited role where better players hide his flaws. So, he doesn't benefit from increased minutes + touches.

I don't see any upside for the Celtics bench players here. Normally, injuries do create a great opportunity for players but not in this case.

[Bahku]

No, I don't think so. Injuries can have a silver lining by giving younger players an opportunity to show they belong but I don't think that's happening, or will happen, here for Boston.

(1) The Celtics main rotation players are all veterans -- Eddie House, Marquis Daniels, Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis. The starting five. And to a lesser degree Scalabrine + Tony Allen. They've all been around the block and know what they're capable of.

So veterans who've "been around the block" can't benefit from additional time on the court? I think the coaches and the players themselves would disagree with that quite vehemently. To say that the bench players, whether veterans or rookies, can't benefit from court-time, especially the pressure and expectations of an actual game, is a bit short-sighted, to say the least. ANY player or coach will tell you that the more game-time experienced the better ... otherwise what you're insinuating here is that "veterans" know it ALL, and as such can't benefit from additional in-game court time. Sorry, but EVERY player benefits from extra time on the court, whether they're veterans, rookies, or the best player in the world. 

(2) The remaining players aren't good enough to justify a rotation spot. JR Giddens, Bill Walker, Lestor Hudson.

Well, that's just your opinion, and it doesn't hold much water, because obviously Doc, Danny, Thibs, and the rest of the coaching staff think they're good enough, or they wouldn't be on the team or IN the rotation whatsoever. Frankly, I see abilities and promise in each of them, and value the chance to see how they perform on the "big stage" ... and a few-minutes-here-and-there is no way to make a fair assessment of anyone's abilities. So I think I'll stick with the Celtics' coaching staff's view of their potential and my own opinion for now.

(3) And, on a different note, Shelden Williams, who is better off in a limited role where better players hide his flaws. So, he doesn't benefit from increased minutes + touches.

Huh? Where better players hide his flaws?!? That sounds like the guy is a complete detriment, where the only good he can contribute is to NOT contribute! He's had some VERY productive showings so far in BBD's stead, and while I agree he's still a bit of a question mark, he is CERTAINLY as productive as a Scalabrine, (I would argue much MORE so), and has more potential for the future on this team. Doc has a great deal of confidence in Shel, so again, I'll stick with the team's assessment ... I mean how can anyone NOT benefit from extra touches?!? That just makes no sense.

I don't see any upside for the Celtics bench players here. Normally, injuries do create a great opportunity for players but not in this case.

How can more playing time, more experience, more time interacting with the other players in a real game, more court time, more running of the plays under the coach's game-time eye and guidance, more experience under the glare of the media, be anything BUT an "upside"? Sorry, but I just don't get that at ALL. In every sport on the face of this big earth, the most important thing is EXPERIENCE ... any coach or player will tell you, all the skills and training in the world do not and never could compare to actual experience in a game. So please explain to me: How can more game-time experience have NO UPSIDE?

[Who]

Prospects

Tier One -- Jarameo Davidson or Roko Ukic -- incapable of being a useful rotation player + not capable of being insurance for an injured rotation player + have some potential to improve and one day become a serviceable NBA player.

Tier Two -- Kyle Weaver or Donte Greene or Taj Gibson  -- a young player who is capable of showing himself to be a borderline rotation player + good insurance for the main rotation.

Tier Three -- JJ Hickson or Darren Collison -- a good young player who is capable of being a role player, an important one, for his team if given an opportunity.

Tier Four -- Jerryd Bayless -- a very good young prospect who hasn't been given the opportunity to play yet. If given the opportunity this young player could become a key cog in his team.

Celtics Youngsters

JR Giddens + Bill Walker + Lestor Hudson are all in that first tier. They're not capable of being rotation players in the NBA. They're not capable of being good insurance for the rotation. They are all decent prospects who are capable of becoming good insurance players, and may be capable of becoming solid rotation players, in the future, but not the near future.

Playing time will bring great benefits to these players once they're able to play at a higher level and prove themselves more so out there on the court. So next year rather than this year.

Veterans

Tier One -- Martell Webster -- a veteran who hasn't been given enough of an opportunity to show his full range of skills. In this case, his talents as a scorer. The extra responsibility + touches + play calls + shot attempts are a great opportunity for this type of veteran. Also true for a defensive stopper who hasn't gotten to matchup against top offensive players consistently yet.

Tier Two -- Marcin Gortat -- a very talented bench player who is capable of a lot more but hasn't been given the minutes to show that yet. Needs an extended run in the team playing increased minutes (12-15 to 27-32 minutes).

Tier Three -- Jason Williams or Jamaal Tinsley or a Devin Brown type -- a player who formerly was a good rotation player but has had a tough time with injuries or whatnot. An opportunity could show that he still belongs in the NBA, or not, as the cases may be.

Tier Four --Aaron Brooks or a Carlos Arroyo type (Jarrett Jack) -- a playmaking perimeter player who plays much better with the ball in his hands. Spending more time on the ball instead of always having to pass off to superior players (McGrady, Artest, Yao in Brooks case) gives the role player a great opportunity to show off how good he could be if he had the ball in his hands that much.

Tier Five -- Jared Dudley -- a decent role player who needs more minutes to show that he can keep his performance up at a high level consistently in increased minutes + against superior opposition.

Celtics Veterans

Eddie House + Brian Scalabrine -- veterans who have carved out their niche in the NBA already

Rasheed Wallace -- Former All-Star who was a main player on every team he's been on for the last decade.

None of these players will benefit from increased roles. It's already clear who they are and what they're capable of. The next four are somewhat debatable but I don't think they'll benefit either:

Tony Allen + Marquis Daniels -- Veterans who have played in several different situations + given several different types of good opportunities to show their abilities. It's already clear what their respective strengths + weaknesses are and what they're capable of contributing to a team.

Shelden Williams -- a solid borderline rotation player who has serious strengths + weaknesses which dramatically alter his effectiveness depending on opposition + role within his own team. Does his best work when alongside talented offensive players (complementary role) and versatile defensive players (avoid matchups where he's a liability).

Glen Davis -- BBD is the type of bench player who could benefit greatly from increased minutes + touches but he already received that type of opportunity last season. I think it's too soon after that to expect Davis to do much more than what he's already shown. Last season, I loved seeing Davis + Powe get an opportunity to play more minutes and show off their skills.

Summary

Anyway, that's a rough guideline for the type of young players + role players who I think we would see good benefits from increased playing time + larger roles. Players who would benefit from the opportunity and consequently help improve their team.

I don't think the Celtics current bench players fit into those categories ... but it all depends on how highly you rate their young prospects + how highly you rate Williams + whether you think TA/Marquis/BBD can show more than they already have in past or recent opportunities. My views on that are fairly clear.

Like I said, normally when injuries happen I'm very excited about seeing what up and coming + less renowned role players are capable of doing with this type of injury. I just don't think there's a benefit for the Celtics in this specific case due to the players who are getting this opportunity.

[clover]

No, I don't think so. Injuries can have a silver lining by giving younger players an opportunity to show they belong but I don't think that's happening, or will happen, here for Boston.

(1) The Celtics main rotation players are all veterans -- Eddie House, Marquis Daniels, Rasheed Wallace, Glen Davis. The starting five. And to a lesser degree Scalabrine + Tony Allen. They've all been around the block and know what they're capable of.

(2) The remaining players aren't good enough to justify a rotation spot. JR Giddens, Bill Walker, Lestor Hudson.

(3) And, on a different note, Shelden Williams, who is better off in a limited role where better players hide his flaws. So, he doesn't benefit from increased minutes + touches.

I don't see any upside for the Celtics bench players here. Normally, injuries do create a great opportunity for players but not in this case.

Going on what we've seen so far this season, what are the chances that everyone's suddenly healthy at once for the playoffs?  That we don't have to go deeper than the 9-man rotation penciled in at the start of the season?

I think you're just plain wrong about Hudson.  I think he's in the rotation by the playoffs.

And Shelden and the other guys--assuming JR particularly is still here for the playoffs--of course benefit from mid-season time in games if they might be called into duty in the playoffs.