Author Topic: Walker, William?  (Read 10917 times)

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Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2010, 11:29:46 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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It is much more simple and straightforward than people suggest. walker did not play because he is coming back from an injury and was sent to the dleague to rehabilitate and get minutes, He only came back because of the Pierce injury and is probably way off integrating into the rotation unlike Giddens who has been fit and with the team.

Both Giddens and walker should not be written off and should be developed they have got some good basic abilities and I actually like Walker to succeed more than Giddens. That does not mean he was ready for the Toronto game.


Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

To me, it doesn't matter.  This is win now mode.  If you can't help the team win this season, then you should be replaced with someone who can.

  I disagree with this philosophy. With a 15 man roster there's room for 3-4 projects that you hope could develop into rotation players later in the year or in future years. Using the 15th roster spot on some washed up player based on the slight chance he can help the team in the playoffs seems kind of short sighted.

If there where high potential players, yes.

But when the three players are low in the rotation potential players, what's the point? 
High potential players?  since when would high-potential players be that low on a roster?  

There's nothing wrong with having developing players in the 13-15 slots on a roster, even if they aren't projected to be all-stars.  If the C's could get these 3 kids to develop into solid bench players to replace the expiring deals this year, all the better.  Granted Giddens is one of those expiring deals at this point but if Hudson, Walker and Giddens were able to develop their games to replace House, Scal and TA for next year, all the better for the C's.  Less $ against the luxury tax and players that have been exposed to and learning Doc's system so there's less of a learning curve than there would be if FA's were brought in.  

It used to happen all the time.

But the point is why use three roster spaces on guys that might one day become a 10th man?  How hard is it to sign a 10th man in the NBA?  Very easy.  It getting the top 6 or 7 spots filled that is hard.

So why not replace some of them (it is ok to have one non playable players) with guys that can be counted on for spot duty. 

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2010, 02:44:11 PM »

Offline Induna

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What I don't understand is what is so hard to accept that Walker isn't better than Giddens at this point. I mean all we have to go off is the evidence:

- Giddens has been with the team all year, Walker hasn't
- Giddens hasn't been demoted to the minor league, Walker has
- Giddens was given the start, Walker wasn't
- Giddens played, Walker didn't
- Ainge and Doc when interviewed earlier in the year said that Giddens had surged ahead of Walker on the depth chart and that Walker hadn't progressed

If Doc and Ainge said that, Walker was hurt, Walker was in the minor league, and Giddens got to play and start, what other conclusions are we supposed to come to exactly? Could all the excuses that bdm860 made for Walker be true? Probably not. Could one of them be true? Possibly. But given the evidence isn't it a lot more logical to assume that Walker isn't showing enough to the front office and head coach to warrant misplacing Giddens out of the game rotation yesterday? I think it is and apparently a lot of other here do too.



I must have missed the interview where Doc and Danny said Giddens had surged ahead of Walker. Was that during his injury? I think Walker is better than Giddens from what I have seen of them both in limited minutes. Giddens just doesn not seem to have as natural a feel for the game or the confidence Walker has with the ball in his hands. You seem to be basing your assessment on one game

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2010, 02:54:00 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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What I don't understand is what is so hard to accept that Walker isn't better than Giddens at this point. I mean all we have to go off is the evidence:

- Giddens has been with the team all year, Walker hasn't
- Giddens hasn't been demoted to the minor league, Walker has
- Giddens was given the start, Walker wasn't
- Giddens played, Walker didn't
- Ainge and Doc when interviewed earlier in the year said that Giddens had surged ahead of Walker on the depth chart and that Walker hadn't progressed

If Doc and Ainge said that, Walker was hurt, Walker was in the minor league, and Giddens got to play and start, what other conclusions are we supposed to come to exactly? Could all the excuses that bdm860 made for Walker be true? Probably not. Could one of them be true? Possibly. But given the evidence isn't it a lot more logical to assume that Walker isn't showing enough to the front office and head coach to warrant misplacing Giddens out of the game rotation yesterday? I think it is and apparently a lot of other here do too.



I must have missed the interview where Doc and Danny said Giddens had surged ahead of Walker. Was that during his injury? I think Walker is better than Giddens from what I have seen of them both in limited minutes. Giddens just doesn not seem to have as natural a feel for the game or the confidence Walker has with the ball in his hands. You seem to be basing your assessment on one game
How can you say that when part of the proof I provided had to do with stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with the game the other night? I will go so far as to say that I saw all the Celtics Summer league games and Walker was clueless and Giddens showed a definite grasp of defense yet seemed off on the offensive end. Giddens was better then. What I have seen from Giddens this year isn't much but he is definitely trying to make strides fitting into a role and not doing to much, which is exactly what Walker did all last year and because of this often mistimed put back dunks instead of just boxing out and making sure to get the offensive rebound, dribbling into a crowd instead of making the extra pass and played the passing lanes on defensive and got caught on backdoor plays a lot.

Add ALL that to the facts from that game, the facts from this year so far and what Ainge and Doc said and it's pretty easy to see that Walker isn't as good as Giddens in the front office's minds right now. Especially given the fact they have spoken their mind on the subject publicly and have done nothing publicly to make anyone think that they have changed their minds.

A lot more went into my opinion than one game.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2010, 03:29:33 PM »

Offline BballTim

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It is much more simple and straightforward than people suggest. walker did not play because he is coming back from an injury and was sent to the dleague to rehabilitate and get minutes, He only came back because of the Pierce injury and is probably way off integrating into the rotation unlike Giddens who has been fit and with the team.

Both Giddens and walker should not be written off and should be developed they have got some good basic abilities and I actually like Walker to succeed more than Giddens. That does not mean he was ready for the Toronto game.


Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

To me, it doesn't matter.  This is win now mode.  If you can't help the team win this season, then you should be replaced with someone who can.

  I disagree with this philosophy. With a 15 man roster there's room for 3-4 projects that you hope could develop into rotation players later in the year or in future years. Using the 15th roster spot on some washed up player based on the slight chance he can help the team in the playoffs seems kind of short sighted.

If there where high potential players, yes.

But when the three players are low in the rotation potential players, what's the point? 
High potential players?  since when would high-potential players be that low on a roster?  

There's nothing wrong with having developing players in the 13-15 slots on a roster, even if they aren't projected to be all-stars.  If the C's could get these 3 kids to develop into solid bench players to replace the expiring deals this year, all the better.  Granted Giddens is one of those expiring deals at this point but if Hudson, Walker and Giddens were able to develop their games to replace House, Scal and TA for next year, all the better for the C's.  Less $ against the luxury tax and players that have been exposed to and learning Doc's system so there's less of a learning curve than there would be if FA's were brought in.  

It used to happen all the time.

But the point is why use three roster spaces on guys that might one day become a 10th man?  How hard is it to sign a 10th man in the NBA?  Very easy.  It getting the top 6 or 7 spots filled that is hard.

So why not replace some of them (it is ok to have one non playable players) with guys that can be counted on for spot duty. 

  It's easy to sign those players but they'll cost you a couple of million a pop. Plus it's possible that one of the inexperienced players will turn into a regular rotation player in a couple of years. It's even possible that by the end of the year Hudson will be able to give you more than Lue would. 3-4 regular rotation guys (Sheed, Baby, Daniels and House) with 3 guys that can give you minutes in a pinch (Scal, TA, Shelden) is enough. If you're at the point where you're looking for a contribution from players 13-15 you're screwed to begin with.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2010, 08:06:00 PM »

Offline Induna

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What I don't understand is what is so hard to accept that Walker isn't better than Giddens at this point. I mean all we have to go off is the evidence:

- Giddens has been with the team all year, Walker hasn't
- Giddens hasn't been demoted to the minor league, Walker has
- Giddens was given the start, Walker wasn't
- Giddens played, Walker didn't
- Ainge and Doc when interviewed earlier in the year said that Giddens had surged ahead of Walker on the depth chart and that Walker hadn't progressed

If Doc and Ainge said that, Walker was hurt, Walker was in the minor league, and Giddens got to play and start, what other conclusions are we supposed to come to exactly? Could all the excuses that bdm860 made for Walker be true? Probably not. Could one of them be true? Possibly. But given the evidence isn't it a lot more logical to assume that Walker isn't showing enough to the front office and head coach to warrant misplacing Giddens out of the game rotation yesterday? I think it is and apparently a lot of other here do too.



I must have missed the interview where Doc and Danny said Giddens had surged ahead of Walker. Was that during his injury? I think Walker is better than Giddens from what I have seen of them both in limited minutes. Giddens just doesn not seem to have as natural a feel for the game or the confidence Walker has with the ball in his hands. You seem to be basing your assessment on one game
How can you say that when part of the proof I provided had to do with stuff that had absolutely nothing to do with the game the other night? I will go so far as to say that I saw all the Celtics Summer league games and Walker was clueless and Giddens showed a definite grasp of defense yet seemed off on the offensive end. Giddens was better then. What I have seen from Giddens this year isn't much but he is definitely trying to make strides fitting into a role and not doing to much, which is exactly what Walker did all last year and because of this often mistimed put back dunks instead of just boxing out and making sure to get the offensive rebound, dribbling into a crowd instead of making the extra pass and played the passing lanes on defensive and got caught on backdoor plays a lot.

Add ALL that to the facts from that game, the facts from this year so far and what Ainge and Doc said and it's pretty easy to see that Walker isn't as good as Giddens in the front office's minds right now. Especially given the fact they have spoken their mind on the subject publicly and have done nothing publicly to make anyone think that they have changed their minds.

A lot more went into my opinion than one game.

My point was that we have only reallly seen Giddens in on game and  he was just so so.. we best agree to disagree

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2010, 09:00:03 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I must have missed the interview where Doc and Danny said Giddens had surged ahead of Walker.

  Honestly, if you check out some of their quotes from the offseason I'm pretty sure you'll see that they said exactly that.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2010, 09:09:12 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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The "hype machine" has gotten fired up over the years with various young guys the Celtics had carried on their roster.  Bill Walker seems to be the latest flavor out there.

Being enamored with youth and potential can be a dangerous thing.

IMO, this team is a veteran-ladden, championship caliber squad.  People may complain of the likes of Brian Scalabrine & Tony Allen being out there but the fact of the matter is that these guys have years of NBA experience to their credit.  That counts for something on the court and experience is especially beneficial when you're playing on a championship caliber team.  When you're playing at that level, its not the time to be screwing around and experimenting with guys who are 14th or 15th on your roster.  That's done on lottery bound teams and teams looking to rebuild. 

People can say that they've seen Bill Walker light it up in Red Claws game or whatever but that doesn't remotely translate to being plugged into any relevant playing time on a World Championship contender like these Boston Celtics.  You can argue that Scal and Allen are garbage but they've been in the wars and know the system.  That's why Doc is handing them the playing time and not the Bill Walkers of the world. 

I don't think Doc or Danny is "keeping him" down or anything.  Simply, when you're playing for a title, you don't start screwing around and seeing what your "14th player" can do.  There's a time and a place for that but this is neither.


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Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2010, 09:11:43 PM »

Offline Edgar

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The "hype machine" has gotten fired up over the years with various young guys the Celtics had carried on their roster.  Bill Walker seems to be the latest flavor out there.

Being enamored with youth and potential can be a dangerous thing.

IMO, this team is a veteran-ladden, championship caliber squad.  People may complain of the likes of Brian Scalabrine & Tony Allen being out there but the fact of the matter is that these guys have years of NBA experience to their credit.  That counts for something on the court and experience is especially beneficial when you're playing on a championship caliber team.  When you're playing at that level, its not the time to be screwing around and experimenting with guys who are 14th or 15th on your roster.  That's done on lottery bound teams and teams looking to rebuild. 

People can say that they've seen Bill Walker light it up in Red Claws game or whatever but that doesn't remotely translate to being plugged into any relevant playing time on a World Championship contender like these Boston Celtics.  You can argue that Scal and Allen are garbage but they've been in the wars and know the system.  That's why Doc isn't handing them the playing time and not the Bill Walkers of the world. 

I don't think Doc or Danny is "keeping him" down or anything.  Simply, when you're playing for a title, you don't start screwing around and seeing what your "14th player" can do.  There's a time and a place for that but this is neither.



the barman is always right

even if i still think scal stinks..
and just to add , do you realize now rondo is in his 3rd season and perk is a full time vet now what 7 or 8.... thats something
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Nice to be back!

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2010, 10:36:26 PM »

Offline ManUp

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Bill Walker is a hacker.

That's probably why he can't sniff the floor.

He plays defense in a way that it's almost impossible for refs to overlook the foul.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2010, 11:55:59 PM »

Offline Trifecta

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The "hype machine" has gotten fired up over the years with various young guys the Celtics had carried on their roster.  Bill Walker seems to be the latest flavor out there.

Being enamored with youth and potential can be a dangerous thing.

IMO, this team is a veteran-ladden, championship caliber squad.  People may complain of the likes of Brian Scalabrine & Tony Allen being out there but the fact of the matter is that these guys have years of NBA experience to their credit.  That counts for something on the court and experience is especially beneficial when you're playing on a championship caliber team.  When you're playing at that level, its not the time to be screwing around and experimenting with guys who are 14th or 15th on your roster.  That's done on lottery bound teams and teams looking to rebuild. 

People can say that they've seen Bill Walker light it up in Red Claws game or whatever but that doesn't remotely translate to being plugged into any relevant playing time on a World Championship contender like these Boston Celtics.  You can argue that Scal and Allen are garbage but they've been in the wars and know the system.  That's why Doc is handing them the playing time and not the Bill Walkers of the world. 

I don't think Doc or Danny is "keeping him" down or anything.  Simply, when you're playing for a title, you don't start screwing around and seeing what your "14th player" can do.  There's a time and a place for that but this is neither.
Let me just say I agree with pretty much everything you just said here. I just think that many people are under the impression that they should atleast get a little playing time under the current injury situation. Which I don't blame them for. I for one would like to see a little playing time for Bill Walker. Not extensive minutes in any way, just at least a couple minutes here and there. A DNP is kind of rediculous under these circumstances. He(Walker)must be doing or have done something to warrant a firm benching.
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Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #55 on: January 05, 2010, 07:50:29 AM »

Offline scoop

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The "hype machine" has gotten fired up over the years with various young guys the Celtics had carried on their roster.  Bill Walker seems to be the latest flavor out there.

Being enamored with youth and potential can be a dangerous thing.

IMO, this team is a veteran-ladden, championship caliber squad.  People may complain of the likes of Brian Scalabrine & Tony Allen being out there but the fact of the matter is that these guys have years of NBA experience to their credit.  That counts for something on the court and experience is especially beneficial when you're playing on a championship caliber team.  When you're playing at that level, its not the time to be screwing around and experimenting with guys who are 14th or 15th on your roster.  That's done on lottery bound teams and teams looking to rebuild. 

People can say that they've seen Bill Walker light it up in Red Claws game or whatever but that doesn't remotely translate to being plugged into any relevant playing time on a World Championship contender like these Boston Celtics.  You can argue that Scal and Allen are garbage but they've been in the wars and know the system.  That's why Doc is handing them the playing time and not the Bill Walkers of the world. 

I don't think Doc or Danny is "keeping him" down or anything.  Simply, when you're playing for a title, you don't start screwing around and seeing what your "14th player" can do.  There's a time and a place for that but this is neither.
Let me just say I agree with pretty much everything you just said here. I just think that many people are under the impression that they should atleast get a little playing time under the current injury situation. Which I don't blame them for. I for one would like to see a little playing time for Bill Walker. Not extensive minutes in any way, just at least a couple minutes here and there. A DNP is kind of rediculous under these circumstances. He(Walker)must be doing or have done something to warrant a firm benching.

But he played that couple of minutes in the Suns game, didn't he? I think it was the only game with garbage time since he was called up from the D-League, so Doc is doing exactly what you're suggesting he should do.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #56 on: January 05, 2010, 08:05:46 AM »

Online slamtheking

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It is much more simple and straightforward than people suggest. walker did not play because he is coming back from an injury and was sent to the dleague to rehabilitate and get minutes, He only came back because of the Pierce injury and is probably way off integrating into the rotation unlike Giddens who has been fit and with the team.

Both Giddens and walker should not be written off and should be developed they have got some good basic abilities and I actually like Walker to succeed more than Giddens. That does not mean he was ready for the Toronto game.


Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

To me, it doesn't matter.  This is win now mode.  If you can't help the team win this season, then you should be replaced with someone who can.

  I disagree with this philosophy. With a 15 man roster there's room for 3-4 projects that you hope could develop into rotation players later in the year or in future years. Using the 15th roster spot on some washed up player based on the slight chance he can help the team in the playoffs seems kind of short sighted.

If there where high potential players, yes.

But when the three players are low in the rotation potential players, what's the point? 
High potential players?  since when would high-potential players be that low on a roster?  

There's nothing wrong with having developing players in the 13-15 slots on a roster, even if they aren't projected to be all-stars.  If the C's could get these 3 kids to develop into solid bench players to replace the expiring deals this year, all the better.  Granted Giddens is one of those expiring deals at this point but if Hudson, Walker and Giddens were able to develop their games to replace House, Scal and TA for next year, all the better for the C's.  Less $ against the luxury tax and players that have been exposed to and learning Doc's system so there's less of a learning curve than there would be if FA's were brought in.  

It used to happen all the time.

But the point is why use three roster spaces on guys that might one day become a 10th man?  How hard is it to sign a 10th man in the NBA?  Very easy.  It getting the top 6 or 7 spots filled that is hard.

So why not replace some of them (it is ok to have one non playable players) with guys that can be counted on for spot duty. 

  It's easy to sign those players but they'll cost you a couple of million a pop. Plus it's possible that one of the inexperienced players will turn into a regular rotation player in a couple of years. It's even possible that by the end of the year Hudson will be able to give you more than Lue would. 3-4 regular rotation guys (Sheed, Baby, Daniels and House) with 3 guys that can give you minutes in a pinch (Scal, TA, Shelden) is enough. If you're at the point where you're looking for a contribution from players 13-15 you're screwed to begin with.
Wdleehi -- I'm in complete agreement that the development used to happen with teams.  I think it still should. 

I'm with BballTim on why it still should-->$.  Youth costs less and in some cases, have the possibility of developing into better players than a FA vet.  I already know what House and Lue can provide.  Not a lot.  Hudson could provide more and for less $ than either of them. 
I already know what Veal provides.  Walker could provide more than Veal and for much less $. 
Giddens (not likely to be around next year but just go with the trend here) could provide what TA provides but for less $. 
None of the players the youth could replace are major rotation players but are current contributors.  If we've already got replacements and exposed them to the system, they're ahead of any FA's we'd bring in and with some potential to improve further.

With the C's out of the FA market until at least the big-3's contracts expire (if not longer), the draft is the only opportunity to restock the roster without having to overpay for vets via full MLE or worse, get crappy vets at the min to fill out the roster.

Re: Walker, William?
« Reply #57 on: January 05, 2010, 09:22:18 AM »

Offline wdleehi

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It is much more simple and straightforward than people suggest. walker did not play because he is coming back from an injury and was sent to the dleague to rehabilitate and get minutes, He only came back because of the Pierce injury and is probably way off integrating into the rotation unlike Giddens who has been fit and with the team.

Both Giddens and walker should not be written off and should be developed they have got some good basic abilities and I actually like Walker to succeed more than Giddens. That does not mean he was ready for the Toronto game.


Maybe they can, maybe they can't.

To me, it doesn't matter.  This is win now mode.  If you can't help the team win this season, then you should be replaced with someone who can.

  I disagree with this philosophy. With a 15 man roster there's room for 3-4 projects that you hope could develop into rotation players later in the year or in future years. Using the 15th roster spot on some washed up player based on the slight chance he can help the team in the playoffs seems kind of short sighted.

If there where high potential players, yes.

But when the three players are low in the rotation potential players, what's the point? 
High potential players?  since when would high-potential players be that low on a roster?  

There's nothing wrong with having developing players in the 13-15 slots on a roster, even if they aren't projected to be all-stars.  If the C's could get these 3 kids to develop into solid bench players to replace the expiring deals this year, all the better.  Granted Giddens is one of those expiring deals at this point but if Hudson, Walker and Giddens were able to develop their games to replace House, Scal and TA for next year, all the better for the C's.  Less $ against the luxury tax and players that have been exposed to and learning Doc's system so there's less of a learning curve than there would be if FA's were brought in.  

It used to happen all the time.

But the point is why use three roster spaces on guys that might one day become a 10th man?  How hard is it to sign a 10th man in the NBA?  Very easy.  It getting the top 6 or 7 spots filled that is hard.

So why not replace some of them (it is ok to have one non playable players) with guys that can be counted on for spot duty. 

  It's easy to sign those players but they'll cost you a couple of million a pop. Plus it's possible that one of the inexperienced players will turn into a regular rotation player in a couple of years. It's even possible that by the end of the year Hudson will be able to give you more than Lue would. 3-4 regular rotation guys (Sheed, Baby, Daniels and House) with 3 guys that can give you minutes in a pinch (Scal, TA, Shelden) is enough. If you're at the point where you're looking for a contribution from players 13-15 you're screwed to begin with.
Wdleehi -- I'm in complete agreement that the development used to happen with teams.  I think it still should. 

I'm with BballTim on why it still should-->$.  Youth costs less and in some cases, have the possibility of developing into better players than a FA vet.  I already know what House and Lue can provide.  Not a lot.  Hudson could provide more and for less $ than either of them. 
I already know what Veal provides.  Walker could provide more than Veal and for much less $. 
Giddens (not likely to be around next year but just go with the trend here) could provide what TA provides but for less $. 
None of the players the youth could replace are major rotation players but are current contributors.  If we've already got replacements and exposed them to the system, they're ahead of any FA's we'd bring in and with some potential to improve further.

With the C's out of the FA market until at least the big-3's contracts expire (if not longer), the draft is the only opportunity to restock the roster without having to overpay for vets via full MLE or worse, get crappy vets at the min to fill out the roster.

He can provide that?  Since when?  Why are they not providing that?