What Doc / KC have in common that is germane to current situation

[csfansince60s]

Let me think......both attended Jesuit colleges?...yes, but that's not it.....both played in the NBA as guards..true, but that's not it...they are the only two African-American head coaches to have guided their teams to an NBA championship...that's true and close, but that's not it...both competed successfully in international competition (KC in '56 Olympics>>>Gold, Doc in '82 FIBA (MVP), both true, but that's not it....both coached for the most storied franchise in the history of basketball....also true and getting closer, but that's still not it......I Got It: Both stubbornly and inflexibly clung to their veterans like binkies and rode those horses into the ground,,,DOC! WAKE UP!...play the kids in games we are not supposed to win like tonight, not so much to showcase them or even to given them meaningful minutes so they might be ready later in the season (although those aren't bad reasons to play them!!!)but to save the legs of Rondo, Ray and Sheed for meaningful games later on...Wake up Doc or this team (the core of our '08 championship team) will suffer the same fate as our '86 championship team...C'mon Danny step in and don't let Doc make history repeat itself,,,You were there, you saw it...DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!!!

[rav123]

...they are the only two African-American head coaches to have guided their teams to an NBA championship...\

You forgot Bill Russell (when he was player-coach).

[Change]

Doc has issues.

He coaches every regular season game like its game 7 of the finals. This man is still stuck in 2008 playoffs. Experiment a little, and rest your veterans.

[csfansince60s]

...they are the only two African-American head coaches to have guided their teams to an NBA championship...\

You forgot Bill Russell (when he was player-coach).

Nice catch...thanks...he also played for a Jesuit college with KC at SF and got gold in '56 with KC too!

[Change]

When we lose A Ray Allen playing his 44th minute. Maybe then Doc Rivers will understand.

[csfansince60s]

When we lose A Ray Allen playing his 44th minute. Maybe then Doc Rivers will understand.

CHANGE, I don't think he'll ever get it unless Danny steps in and has a talk with him...Rondo should have been sat today, too..

[Drucci]

Totally agreed, I was mad at Doc yesterday but now it appears to me that he will never change his way of managing their minutes, whatever the context of the game is. I don't understand how he can manage KG's minutes so well and not the other players. You probably have to have a season-ending injury to make Doc understand that, the following season, he better rest you more often, especially when the game is lost already.

[thirstyboots18]

csfan, as another fan since the 60's I have been one of Doc's biggest boosters, but I think you are right on this one.  Everyone has a flaw, and this is Doc's fatal one.  The rookies should have been playing yesterday...significant minutes...and Rondo and, to a lesser extent Ray, should have been rested.  However, that is now past, and I hope if the situation comes up again, Danny will intervene.(Although I hope that situation will not come up again.)  In the near future though, Paul is hurting, our guards need rest, and our rookies still need meaningful minutes.  Please do not run the rest of the starters into the ground while we are waiting for our better options off the bench to heal, or we may have to go with the bench when crunch time arrives, much like we did last year.  Glen Davis and Marquis Daniels are good, but they are not Paul and Ray.  

By the way, I know there are a lot of Scal haters here, but I felt Scal was the only Celtic playing with passion yesterday.  He may not be the best player on the floor, but he knows "why" he is on the floor...to play hard and at to  least put in the effort.

[csfansince60s]

csfan, as another fan since the 60's I have been one of Doc's biggest boosters, but I think you are right on this one.  Everyone has a flaw, and this is Doc's fatal one.  The rookies should have been playing yesterday...significant minutes...and Rondo and, to a lesser extent Ray, should have been rested.  However, that is now past, and I hope if the situation comes up again, Danny will intervene.(Although I hope that situation will not come up again.)  In the near future though, Paul is hurting, our guards need rest, and our rookies still need meaningful minutes.  Please do not run the rest of the starters into the ground while we are waiting for our better options off the bench to heal, or we may have to go with the bench when crunch time arrives, much like we did last year.  Glen Davis and Marquis Daniels are good, but they are not Paul and Ray.  

By the way, I know there are a lot of Scal haters here, but I felt Scal was the only Celtic playing with passion yesterday.  He may not be the best player on the floor, but he knows "why" he is on the floor...to play hard and at to  least put in the effort.

Hey thirstyboots, good to see some of us oldtimers kicking around in chats with these equally as passionate and loyal young folk! I was not a big Doc fan from the beginning, viewing his lack of vision and overall game strategy as severely lacking, despite his excellent oneoffensive play calling (diagramming)out of timeouts, which really only became apparent once he had the personnel to execute them. I grew to respect and admire him, however, given that he was the horse for the course, being a players coach, and obviously handled the strong personalities on this team well enough to get us 17. There is no denying he was huge in that.
However, as much as you and I and so  many on this board are diehard, loyal Celtic fans who value loyalty in sports in an era where it is so sorely lacking in both players (except the Captain, of course) and front offices (see Cleveland Browns leaving the dog pound, the Colts leaving Baltimore, Theo and BB and front offices who make players mercenaries)and consequently some of that loyalty is owed to Doc for his contribution to 17, there comes a point inevitably where that goodwill accrued becomes lessened by "what have you done for me lately?" And what Doc has done lately is run our vets into the ground. Someone has to speak to him. Many of us saw that firsthand from 87-90. (I had season's from '79 to 90.)

Regarding Scal, I had not been a big fan of his till he really stepped up last year. You're right about him regarding last night, though. He did bring it and usually does, but other than the emotion and desire implicit in the "it", he doen't have the skills to bring much. He is a glue guy on both the bench and in the locker room, so I see his value. But his value may be more as an expiring as we approach the trade deadline.

[Donoghus]

...they are the only two African-American head coaches to have guided their teams to an NBA championship...\

You forgot Bill Russell (when he was player-coach).

Nice catch...thanks...he also played for a Jesuit college with KC at SF and got gold in '56 with KC too!

Al Attles also guided his team to an NBA championship.  ('75 Warriors)

[Reyquila]

Totally agree that Doc is driving the veterans into the ground. He has always done it and he will never change as long as Danny allows it. Maybe Danny agrees with him - who knows. I was there in 86 - Its happening again. Well, What can we do about it?

[wdleehi]

...they are the only two African-American head coaches to have guided their teams to an NBA championship...\

You forgot Bill Russell (when he was player-coach).

Nice catch...thanks...he also played for a Jesuit college with KC at SF and got gold in '56 with KC too!

Al Attles also guided his team to an NBA championship.  ('75 Warriors)

Lenny Wilkens won one with Seattle.

[scoop]

Ray Allen is playing 36.1 mpg and he's in great physical shape. This is just drivel. The concept of not playing your best players in "games we're not supposed to win" is just too ridiculous to merit serious (or not so serious) thought.

[KJ33]

Totally agree that Doc is driving the veterans into the ground. He has always done it and he will never change as long as Danny allows it. Maybe Danny agrees with him - who knows. I was there in 86 - Its happening again. Well, What can we do about it?

If you were there in 86, when they won, then I assume you were there in 87 also, when KC supposedly ran the team into the ground.  Bill Walton played 10 games in 87, Scott Wedman played 6 due to injury, both major contributors off the bench in the 86 title run.  Tell me again who it was that didn't play then that should have when the C's made it to the 87 Finals Game 6?  Should they have played to contend a few years longer than they did, or try to win it all when it was there in front of them?  History can be revised to make your point work, but it doesn't make it correct.

Similarly, the idea Doc is running the players into the ground doesn't make much sense to me either.  Many here, who mostly follow the C's, seem to love Walker, Giddens and Hudson, but they have all spent time in the D league, unlike many other young players in the league, and seem to have risen to heights their talent does not warrant.  Its just that they are here, so people love them it seems. 

A coach's job is to win games, and Doc (as well as KC) has won a lot of them the past 3 years.  At the beginning of the year, Doc spoke over and over about being healthy and ready to go in the spring, so the idea that posters here have some long range view in mind, but the coach somehow doesn't see it, is laughable to me.

[beantownboy171]

So the two major complaints i've heard from doc are:

1. He doesn't have the killer instinct.

2. He leaves his starters in for too long.


Sounds to me like he's as close to a balance as he can get.