Is Shelden in Doc's Doghouse?

[Induna]

I have said it before and will say it again. Scalabrine has no value on the floor, no upside and He does not play at the expense of a young guy like Walker who needs minutes to develop at any other team in the NBA period.

this string is not comparing the right two people because of the positions they play but if we are comparing at least Williams can rebound and put some pressure on the opposition bigs inside, Scal just hangs around the 3 point line offensively and defensively. He is a lazy ineffective player who avoids making mistakes by hiding on the floor (not getting involved).

I have my doubts about Doc developing young talent because he only seems to play the young guys when he has absolutely no choice. I hope walker does not fade away becase of this.

[Tradetime]

Scal is trash. Bottom line.

[Drucci]

Everytime I see Scal on the floor when we have a big lead I feel worried and I'm wondering what Doc is doing because when Scals come on the court it's like we are suddenly playing 4 on 5. Shelden should have played last night, his hustle and offensive boards would have been a huge help (although he may have added a few turnovers).

[Meadowlark_Scal]

Sheldon reminds me of Leon Powe, and just like with leon, doc didn't play him at all until his second year, or was it the third? Look at what leon did when he finally got to play, Sheldon is just like that, and why play him, because just like leon, other teams do not study him, so they don't know how to stop his style, an inside strong man who can put it back up or dish it, before you reply to this, PLEASE look at the team stats, scal is a no show, he provides nothing, and his defense is very good to great, i saw him boxing out Howard, maybe some guys here don't watch that old school off the ball stuff, but it provides the back bone that brings home championships, like dennis Rodman helped both the bulls and detroit...watch scal off the ball, on offense, lost, no noe even bothers to cover him, easy double team, in the league 9 years, no improvement, 5 mill a year, no improvement, all night and day to work on his lame body and lame game, no improvement, why do some of you think he will improve now...? maybe in 9 more years....!   Leon was better than BBD, and i think Sheldon will be better if he gets to play with some first teamers like leon did.... sheldon should have covered kayman, perk couldn't.

[liam]

Sheldon reminds me of Leon Powe, and just like with leon, doc didn't play him at all until his second year, or was it the third? Look at what leon did when he finally got to play, Sheldon is just like that, and why play him, because just like leon, other teams do not study him, so they don't know how to stop his style, an inside strong man who can put it back up or dish it, before you reply to this, PLEASE look at the team stats, scal is a no show, he provides nothing, and his defense is very good to great, i saw him boxing out Howard, maybe some guys here don't watch that old school off the ball stuff, but it provides the back bone that brings home championships, like dennis Rodman helped both the bulls and detroit...watch scal off the ball, on offense, lost, no noe even bothers to cover him, easy double team, in the league 9 years, no improvement, 5 mill a year, no improvement, all night and day to work on his lame body and lame game, no improvement, why do some of you think he will improve now...? maybe in 9 more years....!   Leon was better than BBD, and i think Sheldon will be better if he gets to play with some first teamers like leon did.... sheldon should have covered kayman, perk couldn't.

I think Scal only got 3 million a year for five years.

[nickagneta]

Sheldon reminds me of Leon Powe, and just like with leon, doc didn't play him at all until his second year, or was it the third? Look at what leon did when he finally got to play, Sheldon is just like that, and why play him, because just like leon, other teams do not study him, so they don't know how to stop his style, an inside strong man who can put it back up or dish it, before you reply to this, PLEASE look at the team stats, scal is a no show, he provides nothing, and his defense is very good to great, i saw him boxing out Howard, maybe some guys here don't watch that old school off the ball stuff, but it provides the back bone that brings home championships, like dennis Rodman helped both the bulls and detroit...watch scal off the ball, on offense, lost, no noe even bothers to cover him, easy double team, in the league 9 years, no improvement, 5 mill a year, no improvement, all night and day to work on his lame body and lame game, no improvement, why do some of you think he will improve now...? maybe in 9 more years....!   Leon was better than BBD, and i think Sheldon will be better if he gets to play with some first teamers like leon did.... sheldon should have covered kayman, perk couldn't.

There is just so many things that are just wrong in this post:

- Scal makes $3 miilion a year not $5 million.
- Leon's first year he averaged 11.4 minutes per game while playing in 63 games. He averaged 14.4 minutes while playing in 56 games his second year. Doc played him a bunch rate from the moment he entered the league.
- Other teams I am sure have a very long file on Sheldon Williams and know exactly how to stop him. There is after all a reason he is only a career average scorer of just 4.6 points per game. There is a reason this is his fourth team in four years. It's because he is a fairly average bench player with limited offensive game.
- Please, I beg you, please never use Dennis Rodman as a reference for comparison on Sheldon Williams game. Williams isn't even in Rodman's country as a player of impact, never mind neighborhood.
- I don't think anyone here has ever thought Scal would get better. He plays a role and he does it well. Most of the time that role won't show up on a stat sheet or box score. Rick Robey, Walter McCarty, Greg Kite, Kevin Stacom, Jim Luscutoff, etc. The Celtics have a long history of end of the bench players that played a very distinct role and never had there overall worth show up on the stat sheet. Scal is one of them and I think you or severely underestimating what he brings to the table for this team.
- Sheldon plays with the starters as much as Leon ever did. Sheldon is what he is and that is worse than Leon and Baby but serviceable as a 5th big man on a team.

[Potapenko Boxout]

This is the first time since we have had Ray and KG that I have been upset with Doc Rivers enough to post about it.

Shelden Williams has earned minutes on this team. He hustles, looks for the cutter, and is the BEST OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER ON THE TEAM. His positioning on rebounds makes up for his lack of size. He is not a twenty point scorer in this league, but I feel that he has played well enough to not be a DNP.

Big Baby's behavior, his actions while waiting to sign a contract (twittering his frustration), and his actions after signing a contract (well documented) really upset me. Furthermore, Big Baby CRIED on the bench after being yelled at by KG.

I was excited to see the competition between Shelden and Baby over the backup spot, a la Leon and Baby in prior years. However, once again Doc has gone with the player with the bigger paycheck and longer contract (like Scal). Good luck to us when the Big Three is all done, good luck to Doc too.

Doc shouldn't have a Doghouse He should be a professional - I know I am going to get killed for this but it's the truth

[Bankshot]

This is the first time since we have had Ray and KG that I have been upset with Doc Rivers enough to post about it.

Shelden Williams has earned minutes on this team. He hustles, looks for the cutter, and is the BEST OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER ON THE TEAM. His positioning on rebounds makes up for his lack of size. He is not a twenty point scorer in this league, but I feel that he has played well enough to not be a DNP.

Big Baby's behavior, his actions while waiting to sign a contract (twittering his frustration), and his actions after signing a contract (well documented) really upset me. Furthermore, Big Baby CRIED on the bench after being yelled at by KG.

I was excited to see the competition between Shelden and Baby over the backup spot, a la Leon and Baby in prior years. However, once again Doc has gone with the player with the bigger paycheck and longer contract (like Scal). Good luck to us when the Big Three is all done, good luck to Doc too.

Doc shouldn't have a Doghouse He should be a professional - I know I am going to get killed for this but it's the truth

What does Big Baby's actions have to do with anything? Doc's going to play the better player. There is no competition because Doc already knows Baby is better than Williams.  Doc didn't hesitate really to put him back in the rotation ahead of Shelden.  There's a legitmate reason why?  As I said, Baby is better.

[BballTim]

This is the first time since we have had Ray and KG that I have been upset with Doc Rivers enough to post about it.

Shelden Williams has earned minutes on this team. He hustles, looks for the cutter, and is the BEST OFFENSIVE REBOUNDER ON THE TEAM. His positioning on rebounds makes up for his lack of size. He is not a twenty point scorer in this league, but I feel that he has played well enough to not be a DNP.

Big Baby's behavior, his actions while waiting to sign a contract (twittering his frustration), and his actions after signing a contract (well documented) really upset me. Furthermore, Big Baby CRIED on the bench after being yelled at by KG.

I was excited to see the competition between Shelden and Baby over the backup spot, a la Leon and Baby in prior years. However, once again Doc has gone with the player with the bigger paycheck and longer contract (like Scal). Good luck to us when the Big Three is all done, good luck to Doc too.

Doc shouldn't have a Doghouse He should be a professional - I know I am going to get killed for this but it's the truth

  Are you saying that Doc played Scal over Baby and Powe because of his bigger paycheck and longer contract? Because that's not the case. And you realize that Williams plays mainly against BACKUPS, right?

[Potapenko Boxout]

just because you can out Tommypoint me doesn't make it true.

Big Baby has far more deficiencies in his game than SW. He is undersized and cannot guard a bigger player a lick. he cannot finish around the basket and is certainly prone to having his shot blocked more than SW (which is quite the accomplishment, since SW gets blocked his fair share). he is very poor at pick and roll defense and becomes a me-first shooter at inopportune times (see 2008 playoff stretch after KG went down). some people will post on here and say that he "had" to do this to fill in for KG, which is partly true. but i feel that a number of his shots were forced either early in the shot clock or when there were no rebounders down low to rebound a miss. if there was a practical way to prove this, i would do it.

I know that Baby fits better in KG's place when Perk is on the floor because he has a nice J, but any other time a player like SHelden makes more sense (when KG/Sheed are on the floor)
Big Baby was given the consistent minutes to shine, and if Shelden was given comparable minutes he would at least match Baby's stats.:

(from nba.com)
Ranks #24 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes (6.08)
Ranks #22 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes (7.88)
Ranks #32 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (4.4)
Ranks #39 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (8.6)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (13)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes (1.

[Bankshot]

just because you can out Tommypoint me doesn't make it true.

Big Baby has far more deficiencies in his game than SW. He is undersized and cannot guard a bigger player a lick. he cannot finish around the basket and is certainly prone to having his shot blocked more than SW (which is quite the accomplishment, since SW gets blocked his fair share). he is very poor at pick and roll defense and becomes a me-first shooter at inopportune times (see 2008 playoff stretch after KG went down). some people will post on here and say that he "had" to do this to fill in for KG, which is partly true. but i feel that a number of his shots were forced either early in the shot clock or when there were no rebounders down low to rebound a miss. if there was a practical way to prove this, i would do it.

I know that Baby fits better in KG's place when Perk is on the floor because he has a nice J, but any other time a player like SHelden makes more sense (when KG/Sheed are on the floor)
Big Baby was given the consistent minutes to shine, and if Shelden was given comparable minutes he would at least match Baby's stats.:

(from nba.com)
Ranks #24 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes (6.08)
Ranks #22 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes (7.88)
Ranks #32 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (4.4)
Ranks #39 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (8.6)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (13)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes (1.

Stats aren't everything.  Do you have eyes?  If your eyes tell you Shelden is better than Baby, then I think you need glasses.

[Change]

Are you taking about the same guy who couldn't get minutes in Minnesota and Sacramento? He's a nice 11th man, but thats about it. Nothing against Sheldon, but Glen Davis is younger and better basketball player.

[Potapenko Boxout]

just because you can out Tommypoint me doesn't make it true.

Big Baby has far more deficiencies in his game than SW. He is undersized and cannot guard a bigger player a lick. he cannot finish around the basket and is certainly prone to having his shot blocked more than SW (which is quite the accomplishment, since SW gets blocked his fair share). he is very poor at pick and roll defense and becomes a me-first shooter at inopportune times (see 2008 playoff stretch after KG went down). some people will post on here and say that he "had" to do this to fill in for KG, which is partly true. but i feel that a number of his shots were forced either early in the shot clock or when there were no rebounders down low to rebound a miss. if there was a practical way to prove this, i would do it.

I know that Baby fits better in KG's place when Perk is on the floor because he has a nice J, but any other time a player like SHelden makes more sense (when KG/Sheed are on the floor)
Big Baby was given the consistent minutes to shine, and if Shelden was given comparable minutes he would at least match Baby's stats.:

(from nba.com)
Ranks #24 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes (6.08)
Ranks #22 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes (7.88)
Ranks #32 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (4.4)
Ranks #39 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (8.6)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (13)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes (1.

Stats aren't everything.  Do you have eyes?  If your eyes tell you Shelden is better than Baby, then I think you need glasses.

I tend to use facts because they are harder to disagree with. Furthermore, using the "eye test" when statistics are available does not seem to make perfect sense. Bill Simmons does it, I don't really qualify him as a great source though.

Are you taking about the same guy who couldn't get minutes in Minnesota and Sacramento? He's a nice 11th man, but thats about it. Nothing against Sheldon, but Glen Davis is younger and better basketball player.

Yeah, Sacramento and Minnesota are great places for a role player on a championship caliber team to be compared to. (in case you don't see it, I am using sarcasm here)

[Bankshot]

just because you can out Tommypoint me doesn't make it true.

Big Baby has far more deficiencies in his game than SW. He is undersized and cannot guard a bigger player a lick. he cannot finish around the basket and is certainly prone to having his shot blocked more than SW (which is quite the accomplishment, since SW gets blocked his fair share). he is very poor at pick and roll defense and becomes a me-first shooter at inopportune times (see 2008 playoff stretch after KG went down). some people will post on here and say that he "had" to do this to fill in for KG, which is partly true. but i feel that a number of his shots were forced either early in the shot clock or when there were no rebounders down low to rebound a miss. if there was a practical way to prove this, i would do it.

I know that Baby fits better in KG's place when Perk is on the floor because he has a nice J, but any other time a player like SHelden makes more sense (when KG/Sheed are on the floor)
Big Baby was given the consistent minutes to shine, and if Shelden was given comparable minutes he would at least match Baby's stats.:

(from nba.com)
Ranks #24 in the NBA in Free Throws Per 48 Minutes (6.08)
Ranks #22 in the NBA in Free Throw Attempts Per 48 Minutes (7.88)
Ranks #32 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (4.4)
Ranks #39 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (8.6)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes (13)
Ranks #34 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes (1.

Stats aren't everything.  Do you have eyes?  If your eyes tell you Shelden is better than Baby, then I think you need glasses.

I tend to use facts because they are harder to disagree with. Furthermore, using the "eye test" when statistics are available does not seem to make perfect sense. Bill Simmons does it, I don't really qualify him as a great source though.

Are you taking about the same guy who couldn't get minutes in Minnesota and Sacramento? He's a nice 11th man, but thats about it. Nothing against Sheldon, but Glen Davis is younger and better basketball player.

Yeah, Sacramento and Minnesota are great places for a role player on a championship caliber team to be compared to. (in case you don't see it, I am using sarcasm here)

I think the people that see them in practice every day would know more about Glen v. Shelden than you.  Doc and the Celtics feel Glen is better so I'll gowith that.

[DannyZ]

Scalabrine and Sheldon both play the same position, power forward.  Scal occasionally guards 3s (not well).  Most of the time he is guarding 4s (not well either).

The first time I noticed Shelden getting shafted was the Indiana game.  KG was out with the thigh bruise and Sheldon still got a DNP.  Scal played, scored a whopping two points, and gave up about 15 to Troy Murphy.  I think Murphy finished with 23 points and 18 rebounds.

Here are some #s for you.  In 22 games this season, Scal has gone scoreless 11 times.  He hasn't grabbed a rebound 13 times.  He is a power forward.  Scoring and rebounding is important.  He is shooting around 36 percent from the field and 29 percent from 3.

As for his "intangibles"....  He is dead last on the team in +/- by a wide margin.  Look it up on nba.com.

Sheldon is shooting 49% from the field, 77% from the line, and scores and rebounds in the majority of his games (important criteria for a power forward).

On the bright side, we are finally in the final year of Scal's contract.  It feels like he has been on the team for about 20 years (it's only been 5).