Who are the best QBs in the league?

[Bahku]

That's your opinion ... I believe the numbers would be much different ... and it's moot anyway. Ask Peyton if he's more successful than Brady ... he will say no ... I'd put that at about 99%. He would also say that if he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, his "unbelievable" numbers mean nothing.

Magic Johnson is more successful than Larry Bird.  Are you ready to concede that he's better?  Heck, Robert Horry has more rings than Michael Jordan.

Hey, that's not fair ... you're playing on my soft-spot!

[Rondo2287]

That's your opinion ... I believe the numbers would be much different ... and it's moot anyway. Ask Peyton if he's more successful than Brady ... he will say no ... I'd put that at about 99%. He would also say that if he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, his "unbelievable" numbers mean nothing.

Magic Johnson is more successful than Larry Bird.  Are you ready to concede that he's better?  Heck, Robert Horry has more rings than Michael Jordan.

Manning is great now, but the fact that he was horrible and I mean horrible early in his career in the post season shouldnt be ignored, when Brady was successful at the same time.  And you can say, well Brady had the Defense.  And at the time, he did, but there isnt any excuse for completing the same ammount of passes to Ty Law and Marvin Harrison in the AFC Championship game.  

[nickagneta]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

[KJ33]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

I agree with most of what you are saying, being a fan of the home team does not blind one to acknowledging who is the best.  And of course you are entitled to your opinion also, but to put Manning above all those others so definitively is mind boggling to me.  As other posters have pointed out, there have been times in Peyton's career where he has struggled mightily, and not just early in his career either. 

This is not a knock on him as many great players go through an evolution in becoming great.  But there have just been too many warts to clearly establish him as the best ever, end of discussion. You are right with your examples about rings not necessarily making one player better than another, same with stats.  Yet, those things are part of the discussion when having best ever arguments.  Jordan would never have gotten into that discussion had he not ultimately won multiple titles after not having won his first 6 years.  Lebron may end up setting all kinds of records, but if he never wins, or even wins only one, that will taint him in the best ever conversation. 

Peyton has time left of course, and may yet get multiple titles.  However, that has not yet happened, so calling him the best ever, no question, is a bit premature.

[twistedrico]

I'm sorry but Brady is probably fourth right now behind Manning, Brees, and Favre..maybe fifth, Rivers is pretty [dang] good too.

[nickagneta]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

I agree with most of what you are saying, being a fan of the home team does not blind one to acknowledging who is the best.  And of course you are entitled to your opinion also, but to put Manning above all those others so definitively is mind boggling to me.  As other posters have pointed out, there have been times in Peyton's career where he has struggled mightily, and not just early in his career either. 

This is not a knock on him as many great players go through an evolution in becoming great.  But there have just been too many warts to clearly establish him as the best ever, end of discussion. You are right with your examples about rings not necessarily making one player better than another, same with stats.  Yet, those things are part of the discussion when having best ever arguments.  Jordan would never have gotten into that discussion had he not ultimately won multiple titles after not having won his first 6 years.  Lebron may end up setting all kinds of records, but if he never wins, or even wins only one, that will taint him in the best ever conversation. 

Peyton has time left of course, and may yet get multiple titles.  However, that has not yet happened, so calling him the best ever, no question, is a bit premature.

Every player has high point and low points in their career. Tarkenton lost 4 SuperBowls. Marino lost the only one he was ever in. Elway lost three, no, got destroyed in 3 Superbowls before finally getting a running game that won him his back to back rings. Young had to play in the USFL and sit behind Montana for years and years.

Looking specifically at some games where Manning lost and struggled, particularly against the best team and the best defensive mind in Manning's era, and judging him not being the greatest because he could singularly overcome not only the best team of his era, but one of the best ever with another of the best QBs ever playing on that team is patently unfair.

Manning is the only QB to be calling all his own plays since Marino and Kelly, I believe. He has some of the greatest achievements in NFL history in wins, winning percentage, TD passes, yardage, completions, attempts, QB rating, and I could go on and on. When all is said and done I think he will be the greatest ever. Remember, his career is probably far from over. Not only could all the great stats and opinions on his technique, throwing accuracy, intelligence, throwing arm, touch, pocket presence, durability, leadership, etc. be excellent points as to why he is the best but he just could have 2-3 more rings on his finger when all is said and done.

Now, of course, others still playing or to play could have something to say about his being the best ever(like Brady winning 2-3 more SBs could suddenly make a valid case), but let's see. I just think as of right now, he's the best right now and for all-time.

[Smitty77]

ROMO:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[Bahku]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

And I just happen to think he's NOT.

First of all, I'd like to know how my being a homer and defending my QB, (the section you hi-lighted in red), is insulting to you? It had nothing to do with you or anyone else ... only me, and my opinion of being a homer and a die-hard fan.

Secondly, why does your education matter to defending your opinion? We can get into throwing educational background around if you wish, as you brought it up, (I have a BS, an MD, a BFA, and an AS), but I don't think it matters in the least when it comes to good discourse. Some of the best posting and discourse I've seen here on CB has been from "uneducated", young posters ... everyone is entitled to their opinion, despite their level of expertise.

Thirdly, I've been a Patriot/Red Sox/Celtic fan for over 45 years, and can bandy any Plunkett, Grogan, Flutie era knowledge around that you like, and I had seasons tickets for over 10 years when I lived in the Boston area, so I can go you the "50 games" attended and then some, (though I don't think that matters, either). I also played football from elementary through high school, so all-in-all I think I can also claim some moderate amount of "educated football" knowledge, as you put it.

Fourthly, following your same theory, I could say that the Celtics are NOT the best team in basketball, the Lakers are, because they have on their team the (arguably) best ever in the game, Kobe Bryant. I don't believe that's true, however, despite his being "technically" better than any player on the Celtics, because I think he's selfish, has large defensive weaknesses, and his arrogance prevents him from being the best for his team, (yes, my opinion, but it follows the same formula you're using). I'd rather have a Paul Pierce any day.   

I have provided "intelligent" facts for my points here, (in previous posts), and given an "objective" argument to my side, (despite the hints at the contrary) ... I have listed many records that Brady has set, (which Manning has not), but there are many more. In addition, if you could ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful as Tom Brady's, I can guarantee you he would say NO. Ultimately, every professional athlete considers anything short of a championship to be a failure in the grand scheme of things ... Peyton is no different.

Regardless of all this, I happen to think that Brady is just plain better at QB than Peyton .... he is the master of the two-minute-drill, he is better under pressure, he has won more "big" games and championships, he has set records that Manning has not duplicated, and done so playing far fewer games, and coming from a far less prepared state of mind and body, he has come from a far less "football-oriented" background, and fought through many injuries and major surgery. I have also never seen ANYONE who keeps their concentration and keeps their eyes down the field as long under pressure as Tom Brady, or anyone who throws as accurately while "in the grasp" ... bar none.

But despite all this and despite comparing all of Manning's records and accomplishments, it still just comes down to each person's opinion, and my opinion is that Brady is a better QB than Manning. We can keep discussing this if there are any further ways to beat this dead horse, but if you wish to do so, let's do it without the insinuation and condescension, and the intimations that you're somehow more qualified to have an "objective and educated" opinion. (wow) I personally feel that "intelligent football conversation" should be free of such.

[nickagneta]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

And I just happen to think he's NOT.

First of all, I'd like to know how my being a homer and defending my QB, (the section you hi-lighted in red), is insulting to you? It had nothing to do with you or anyone else ... only me, and my opinion of being a homer and a die-hard fan.

Secondly, why does your education matter to defending your opinion? We can get into throwing educational background around if you wish, as you brought it up, (I have a BS, an MD, a BFA, and an AS), but I don't think it matters in the least when it comes to good discourse. Some of the best posting and discourse I've seen here on CB has been from "uneducated", young posters ... everyone is entitled to their opinion, despite their level of expertise.

Thirdly, I've been a Patriot/Red Sox/Celtic fan for over 45 years, and can bandy any Plunkett, Grogan, Flutie era knowledge around that you like, and I had seasons tickets for over 10 years when I lived in the Boston area, so I can go you the "50 games" attended and then some, (though I don't think that matters, either). I also played football from elementary through high school, so all-in-all I think I can also claim some moderate amount of "educated football" knowledge, as you put it.

Fourthly, following your same theory, I could say that the Celtics are NOT the best team in basketball, the Lakers are, because they have on their team the (arguably) best ever in the game, Kobe Bryant. I don't believe that's true, however, despite his being "technically" better than any player on the Celtics, because I think he's selfish, has large defensive weaknesses, and his arrogance prevents him from being the best for his team, (yes, my opinion, but it follows the same formula you're using). I'd rather have a Paul Pierce any day.   

I have provided "intelligent" facts for my points here, (in previous posts), and given an "objective" argument to my side, (despite the hints at the contrary) ... I have listed many records that Brady has set, (which Manning has not), but there are many more. In addition, if you could ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful as Tom Brady's, I can guarantee you he would say NO. Ultimately, every professional athlete considers anything short of a championship to be a failure in the grand scheme of things ... Peyton is no different.

Regardless of all this, I happen to think that Brady is just plain better at QB than Peyton .... he is the master of the two-minute-drill, he is better under pressure, he has won more "big" games and championships, he has set records that Manning has not duplicated, and done so playing far fewer games, and coming from a far less prepared state of mind and body, he has come from a far less "football-oriented" background, and fought through many injuries and major surgery. I have also never seen ANYONE who keeps their concentration and keeps their eyes down the field as long under pressure as Tom Brady, or anyone who throws as accurately while "in the grasp" ... bar none.

But despite all this and despite comparing all of Manning's records and accomplishments, it still just comes down to each person's opinion, and my opinion is that Brady is a better QB than Manning. We can keep discussing this if there are any further ways to beat this dead horse, but if you wish to do so, let's do it without the insinuation and condescension, and the intimations that you're somehow more qualified to have an "objective and educated" opinion. (wow) I personally feel that "intelligent football conversation" should be free of such.

YOU are the one that started the insinuations that it is a fan's "duty" to be a homer and that being a die hard fan means that one has to support only the players and teams that one is a fan of in conversations of football or basketball, if you so happen to be a basketball fan. YOU are the one that started calling into question other people's loyalties to their team by insinuating that if someone believed something contrary to the fact that Brady or the Patriots or the Celtics were the best that they then were less of a fan. I find your post somewhat, though not completely insulting, because you strongly hinted that others were somehow less than you as a fan if we believed that the Lakers were a better team than the Celtics or that Manning was better than Brady.

Did you specifically say that? No. Was it strongly suggested in the wording and context of the passage you wrote? Absolutely, so I hope you aren't going to write back something saying otherwise because I think we all know you did.

You went so far as to call the fact that people could love the Pats and Brady and the Celtics and say stuff like Manning is the best QB or maybe something like this:

Best team in the NBA - the Celtics and Lakers....

League's best player - Kobe Bryant....

as bizarre.

As for your pulling my stated resume as to why I consider myself able to make decisions contrary to your definition of what a homer should or should not have, I find that laughable. You call into question other people's loyalties for having a decision other than the "rah rah go only my team" opinion of a homer, you state that it is bizarre that so many people have a decision other than the one you have, and when I list a number of reasons why I think I should be considered a loyal and smart enough person to make my own decisions, be they contrary to the homer version of yours, you turn my reasoning into a some sort of immature penis measuring contest. I said what I said the way I said it to show that I wasn't some non fan just trying to make problems and to show that I had enough experience and knowledge and education to make my own decisions without following the "homer only" philosophy that you are expounding on.

You have your reasoning as to why Brady is better than Manning. I and others have our reasons way we feel otherwise. Everyone was happy to have a debate over accomplishments and abilities of the quarterbacks. But it was you who started calling into question the loyalties of the Pats fans and even the Celtics fans here for having a non-Boston based, homer opinion of the abilities of our quarterback or even whether the Celtics were the best team in the league.

[Bahku]

In addition, of COURSE I'm a homer! Why the heck wouldn't I be? I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly. This is Boston and New England, and the Patriots are as much our team as the Celtics. So of COURSE I'm going to take a "homer" position ... I'm a New Englander, and the Pats are our team ... Brady's our QB, and he has had more success than Manning, period. Peace out ... let the Manning love fest continue! (as strange as it seems)

I don't want to say I find this insulting but it does come close to it.

I grew up and lived my life being able to see the Boston skyline from my bedroom. I've been a Patriots fan since 1976 when I was 11. That's when the Pats came out after an opening game loss and beat Miami, Pittsburgh and Oakland in consecutive weeks and shocked the NFL football world. They went 11-3 that year and got ripped off by Ben Dreith with his horrible roughing the passer call against Sugar Bear Hamilton on Ken Stabler. I've been to over 50 games since including several playoff games and I bleed Patriots red, white, blue and silver.

I am a certified homer. But I also consider myself an educated man and an educated football person and like to think that I can look at things objectively. But being a fan or a homer does not mean that when it comes to intelligent football conversation I am obligated to put aside my objectivity and am duty bound to say stuff I don't believe in or think is true.

Tom Brady, when all is said and done, will be considered one of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game. I happen to think Manning will be considered the best though. And that's with or without rings and with or without every single record ever. You don't have to own every or even any record to be considered the best ever.

Sandy Koufax is considered maybe the greatest pitcher ever but hardly owns any records. Babe Ruth now owns a lot less records than he used to but is still considered the best. Jim Brown is probably the best running back ever but what records does he own?

What about Michael Jordan? Is Sam Jones a better 2 guard then MJ because he holds more rings? Is Karl Malone a better player because he's scored more points? Is Kobe better than MJ because he scored more points in one game than Jordan?

I look at the whole picture here and see Tom Brady as ONE of the best ever. He's right there with Montana, Unitas, Baugh, Marino, Young, Staubach, Elway, Starr and Tarkenton. I just happen to think that Manning is the best ever.

And I just happen to think he's NOT.

First of all, I'd like to know how my being a homer and defending my QB, (the section you hi-lighted in red), is insulting to you? It had nothing to do with you or anyone else ... only me, and my opinion of being a homer and a die-hard fan.

Secondly, why does your education matter to defending your opinion? We can get into throwing educational background around if you wish, as you brought it up, (I have a BS, an MD, a BFA, and an AS), but I don't think it matters in the least when it comes to good discourse. Some of the best posting and discourse I've seen here on CB has been from "uneducated", young posters ... everyone is entitled to their opinion, despite their level of expertise.

Thirdly, I've been a Patriot/Red Sox/Celtic fan for over 45 years, and can bandy any Plunkett, Grogan, Flutie era knowledge around that you like, and I had seasons tickets for over 10 years when I lived in the Boston area, so I can go you the "50 games" attended and then some, (though I don't think that matters, either). I also played football from elementary through high school, so all-in-all I think I can also claim some moderate amount of "educated football" knowledge, as you put it.

Fourthly, following your same theory, I could say that the Celtics are NOT the best team in basketball, the Lakers are, because they have on their team the (arguably) best ever in the game, Kobe Bryant. I don't believe that's true, however, despite his being "technically" better than any player on the Celtics, because I think he's selfish, has large defensive weaknesses, and his arrogance prevents him from being the best for his team, (yes, my opinion, but it follows the same formula you're using). I'd rather have a Paul Pierce any day.   

I have provided "intelligent" facts for my points here, (in previous posts), and given an "objective" argument to my side, (despite the hints at the contrary) ... I have listed many records that Brady has set, (which Manning has not), but there are many more. In addition, if you could ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful as Tom Brady's, I can guarantee you he would say NO. Ultimately, every professional athlete considers anything short of a championship to be a failure in the grand scheme of things ... Peyton is no different.

Regardless of all this, I happen to think that Brady is just plain better at QB than Peyton .... he is the master of the two-minute-drill, he is better under pressure, he has won more "big" games and championships, he has set records that Manning has not duplicated, and done so playing far fewer games, and coming from a far less prepared state of mind and body, he has come from a far less "football-oriented" background, and fought through many injuries and major surgery. I have also never seen ANYONE who keeps their concentration and keeps their eyes down the field as long under pressure as Tom Brady, or anyone who throws as accurately while "in the grasp" ... bar none.

But despite all this and despite comparing all of Manning's records and accomplishments, it still just comes down to each person's opinion, and my opinion is that Brady is a better QB than Manning. We can keep discussing this if there are any further ways to beat this dead horse, but if you wish to do so, let's do it without the insinuation and condescension, and the intimations that you're somehow more qualified to have an "objective and educated" opinion. (wow) I personally feel that "intelligent football conversation" should be free of such.

YOU are the one that started the insinuations that it is a fan's "duty" to be a homer and that being a die hard fan means that one has to support only the players and teams that one is a fan of in conversations of football or basketball, if you so happen to be a basketball fan. YOU are the one that started calling into question other people's loyalties to their team by insinuating that if someone believed something contrary to the fact that Brady or the Patriots or the Celtics were the best that they then were less of a fan. I find your post somewhat, though not completely insulting, because you strongly hinted that others were somehow less than you as a fan if we believed that the Lakers were a better team than the Celtics or that Manning was better than Brady.

Did you specifically say that? No. Was it strongly suggested in the wording and context of the passage you wrote? Absolutely, so I hope you aren't going to write back something saying otherwise because I think we all know you did.

You went so far as to call the fact that people could love the Pats and Brady and the Celtics and say stuff like Manning is the best QB or maybe something like this:

Best team in the NBA - the Celtics and Lakers....

League's best player - Kobe Bryant....

as bizarre.

As for your pulling my stated resume as to why I consider myself able to make decisions contrary to your definition of what a homer should or should not have, I find that laughable. You call into question other people's loyalties for having a decision other than the "rah rah go only my team" opinion of a homer, you state that it is bizarre that so many people have a decision other than the one you have, and when I list a number of reasons why I think I should be considered a loyal and smart enough person to make my own decisions, be they contrary to the homer version of yours, you turn my reasoning into a some sort of immature penis measuring contest. I said what I said the way I said it to show that I wasn't some non fan just trying to make problems and to show that I had enough experience and knowledge and education to make my own decisions without following the "homer only" philosophy that you are expounding on.

You have your reasoning as to why Brady is better than Manning. I and others have our reasons way we feel otherwise. Everyone was happy to have a debate over accomplishments and abilities of the quarterbacks. But it was you who started calling into question the loyalties of the Pats fans and even the Celtics fans here for having a non-Boston based, homer opinion of the abilities of our quarterback or even whether the Celtics were the best team in the league.

Wow, Nick ... this is just plain offensive ... I was stating my opinion as to what a "homer" is to ME, not to YOU, and I also said you were as entitled to your opinion as I am. You, however, feel that your view is the ONLY view, and regardless of how you want to twist my words, there are others in this world who are as entitled to their opinion as you are. Whatever you think of me and my posts and my rationale for feeling that Brady is a better QB than Manning, or of my definition of "homerism" or whether or not I'm as qualified to have an "educated" discussion about it, I WOULD never and HAVE never supported my reasoning with the kind of detritus you use here. You were the one with the insinuations that I was not putting forth an "educated footabll discussion", so don't give me the "we all know it's YOU" crap .... I don't care about what you consider to be worthy of discourse, because EVERYONE here, educated or NOT, young, old, black, white, male, female, stupid, smart, is as entitled to their opinion as YOU are, whether they fit your definition as "educated" on the subject or not. Beyond that, I have little else to say, because whatEVER I say, will be twised or bashed or mis-interpreted to fit the argument, ("immature penis-measuring contest"? wow). That's not discourse, that's garbage ... and this conversation has now degraded FAR beyond intelligent, heated discussion ... ME included. I'll ask you respectfully to not throw that kind of phrase in my direction again. I'm done ... bash away.

[Rondo2287]

If you are talking all time, it has to begin and end with Brady.  You talk about the superbowls and how its a team sport.  If Brady's team aka Asante Samuel and reche caldwell didnt blow it, Brady would have 5 superbowls right now and Manning would have none.  Brady also owns the best season by a quarterback in NFL history.  He has the stats, the wins, the makeup of the Best of all time.  Peyton has the stats, and the best Pout of all time. 

[nickagneta]

Wow, Nick ... this is just plain offensive ... I was stating my opinion as to what a "homer" is to ME, not to YOU, and I also said you were as entitled to your opinion as I am. You, however, feel that your view is the ONLY view, and regardless of how you want to twist my words, there are others in this world who are as entitled to their opinion as you are. Whatever you think of me and my posts and my rationale for feeling that Brady is a better QB than Manning, or of my definition of "homerism" or whether or not I'm as qualified to have an "educated" discussion about it, I WOULD never and HAVE never supported my reasoning with the kind of detritus you use here. You were the one with the insinuations that I was not putting forth an "educated footabll discussion", so don't give me the "we all know it's YOU" crap .... I don't care about what you consider to be worthy of discourse, because EVERYONE here, educated or NOT, young, old, black, white, male, female, stupid, smart, is as entitled to their opinion as YOU are, whether they fit your definition as "educated" on the subject or not. Beyond that, I have little else to say, because whatEVER I say, will be twised or bashed or mis-interpreted to fit the argument, ("immature penis-measuring contest"? wow). That's not discourse, that's garbage ... and this conversation has now degraded FAR beyond intelligent, heated discussion ... ME included. I'll ask you respectfully to not throw that kind of phrase in my direction again. I'm done ... bash away.

I'm sorry, is it any more or less offensive than your proclamation that, and let me quote you here so as to not twist your words, even though I haven't done that even once:

I live in New England, and the Pats are my team ... why would I be trying to prove that Manning is a better QB? Why would I even care to? The fun of being a fan, and I would argue the duty of being a fan to me is BEING a homer! Are you telling me that people here are going to argue that the Lakers are a better team than the Celtics and spend pages fighting that position because Kobe is a better player than anyone on the Celtics? Come on, I guarantee you that 90% of the people on this blog are homers, and they should be ... that's part of being a die-hard fan. I find it a bit disconcerting that there are more people here taking Manning's the side of this discussion ... that I am arguing this point with Celtics fans ... it's bizarre, frankly.

?

I live in Boston. I am a New England and Boston fan. Yet I was trying  to prove Manning a better QB than Brady. Does that make me bizarre? I am a Celtic fan. I will argue that the Lakers are possibly a better team than the Celtics though my true belief is they are equally good. Does that mean I somehow am so strange as to make people feel disconcerted? You even went so far as to say in an later post that, again exact quote, don't want to twist your words here:

I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet

Why are you seeing that? You are DIRECTLY IMPLYING that there aren't people in that thread because they are die hard Patriots fans like yourself and that if you are a die hard Patriot fan you HAVE to believe that Brady is better than Manning. Stop being so coy about this Bahku. It is EXACTLY what your undercurrent in your posts have been. Say everyone is entitled to their opinions and you respect that but this above quote shows exactly what you feel and what you said in the other post. That being, that true homer Patriots fans believe that Brady is a better QB and if you don't then.......

Be offended about what I had to say but my guess here is that there are a lot of free thinking Pats fans here that find what you wrote to be as offensive as my "penis measuring" remark that you seem to be so righteously indignant about. I claimed I was an intelligent, educated, Bostonian and felt that your somewhat offensive tone and underlying message was a bit insulting to Patriots fans that didn't feel the same way. It was you who suddenly had to list off a whole bunch of degrees and other stuff to show you somehow were as qualified or more so.

You were keeping the conversation very intelligent and worthy of discourse until YOU started to call into question Patriots fans loyalties because they didn't have the same opinion as you. That wasn't me. My only post regarding the Brady vs Manning before the post you took exception to was this:

I love me some Tom Brady but he's still the second best QB in the league. Manning calls his own plays, has made a slew of receivers look like All-Pros, and won without the benefit of an outstanding defense.

Given the choice in a complete vacuum, "Who would you want to QB your team for one game to win a championship?" I would probably have to take Manning, though the choice is very, very close and difficult.

I still say though, that asked that question out of the vacuum in reference to how they are playing this year, I still take Brady second after Manning over some of the QBs having career years  in the league. You just can't replace great experience

Notice, I wasn't calling into question any fan's loyalties in that post. Nope, that was you later on.

[Roy Hobbs]

Simmer down, guys.  There's no need to take this stuff personally.

[Rondo2287]

Nick in all fairness, Manning has had the same offensive coordinator his entire career.  If he wasnt comfortable enough with the system to call plays by now I would be worried.  And while you are talking about players he has made look like all pros are you referring to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Dallas Clark?  I mean comon, the guy has had talent around him his entire career.  Jermaine Wiggins,Dante Stallworth, David Givens, Deon Branch, David Patten, Jabar Gaffney and many others are all guys that Brady made look great and then went on to sign contracts elsewhere and not look nearly as good.  

Until Moss and Welker got here the Talent level was not even close, and that isnt even arguable in my opinion.  The one thing that I think Brady has had all of his career that Manning only had for most of his career was a great pass catching back in Faulk.  Manning had Edge untill he left, but that role hasnt been replaced in their offense since.  

And the patriots were still a dropped Caldwell pass in the endzone from preventing Manning from getting a superbowl rign.  

[Bahku]

Yeah, as a matter of fact, I consider "immature penis-size contest" more offensive than anything in this entire thread, and it's not something that I would ever throw your way, whether I felt the urge to or not. You've also made a bunch of assumptions here that have nothing to do with the intent of my remarks, but as I said in the previous post, whatever I say will get twisted. Well there, I said I was done but I lied, ("Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"), just to save you having to type that later. To try once again to put an end to this barb-trading dead horse-beating argument, let's just assume that everything I said amounts to this: Peyton Manning is the greatest QB of all time ... bar none! (I'm not divluging whether my fingers were crossed or not, because that's just immature anyway). Merry Christmas.