Who are the best QBs in the league?

[Bahku]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

[Roy Hobbs]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Lastly, how is the following quote *not* undercutting Manning's accomplishments?:

Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has.

If your intent wasn't to make Manning look bad, I'm not sure what you were going with with such an inaccurate statement.  Manning is putting up unbelievable numbers this season despite having a terrible running game and a mediocre receiving core.  Yet, you somehow think 66.7% of the QBs in this league would have equal success.  I just see no merit to this argument whatsoever.

[Donoghus]

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Eh...I'm not sold on that statement.  That's pure speculation and I don't happen to believe that its a certainty. 

[Rondo2287]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Lastly, how is the following quote *not* undercutting Manning's accomplishments?:

Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has.

If your intent wasn't to make Manning look bad, I'm not sure what you were going with with such an inaccurate statement.  Manning is putting up unbelievable numbers this season despite having a terrible running game and a mediocre receiving core.  Yet, you somehow think 66.7% of the QBs in this league would have equal success.  I just see no merit to this argument whatsoever.

If the situations were reversed, Brady would have the better individual numbers. When Brady was given weapons similar to Manning, Brady put together the best season of any qb in the history of the NFL.  Personally I think you cant go wrong with either QB.  If either lines up behind center for your team, you are probably going to win the game.  I know when I break it down, the reason I hate manning so much is because I'm a homer and I also recognize how [dang] good he is.  I supported BB going for it on fourth and two because I was afraid of Manning getting the ball again.  

In the end I think we have been privileged to watch two of the best QB's to ever play the game, and watch them match up against eachother so often in meaningful games.  

[greg683x]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Not to mention Field goal kicking.  How many of Bradys victories came at the difference of having a clutch kicker or not??

If you think argueing of field goal kicks is stupid, then maybe we can give Peyton Manning Adam Vinnaiteri instead of Mike Vanderjagt for that clutch kick against the Steelers a few years ago, you could argue that was a difference between another ring for Manning......and to complete the swap, we can give the Pats Vanderjagt for one of those big kicks...and when he chokes that kick away, thats one less SB victory for the Pats.  And Hey that puts both QBs at 2 victories.

I know thats a lot of what if's but Im using it to illustrate a point that there are a team of players on the roster not just one.

[Rondo2287]

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Eh...I'm not sold on that statement.  That's pure speculation and I don't happen to believe that its a certainty. 

And I think if brady had the same OC for his entire career things may be even more skewed in his favor.  

[Roy Hobbs]

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Eh...I'm not sold on that statement.  That's pure speculation and I don't happen to believe that its a certainty. 

Of course it's speculation.  However, I wonder how Brady would have fared in the playoffs if he had Bill Belichick and the Pats defense scheming against him.  Belichick has one of the greatest defensive minds in football, and he's as responsible (or more so) for the Pats' SBs as Brady is.  Give him Manning and keep everything else the same, and I think Belichick is equally as successful, if not more so.

[Bahku]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Lastly, how is the following quote *not* undercutting Manning's accomplishments?:

Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has.

If your intent wasn't to make Manning look bad, I'm not sure what you were going with with such an inaccurate statement.  Manning is putting up unbelievable numbers this season despite having a terrible running game and a mediocre receiving core.  Yet, you somehow think 66.7% of the QBs in this league would have equal success.  I just see no merit to this argument whatsoever.

And I don't agree with the argument that Manning is as successful as Brady, because he is not, as his lack of successive Super Bowl rings proves. As far as my "inaccurate statement", it's no more inacurrate than yours ... it's conjecture, like your statement stating that Manning would have had as many Super Bowl wins as Brady if under the same circumstances is conjecture ... I'm sorry, but all the stats in the world don't make Super Bowl wins, and you can tout all the wonderful things Manning has done and all the huge numbers he's put up in this "unbelievable" season, but until he wins two more Super Bowls, he will NOT have been as successful as Tom Brady ... and that's in HIS terms as well. Do you think Payton considers a great season without a Super Bowl chamionship successful? No way ... that's the goal, and everything else falls short. You may find no "merit" in my argument because it doesn't coincide with your view. Frankly, I think ANYONE with a valid opinion has merit to their argument, and I would never say that to you ... no matter how strongly I disagree with your opinion ... you're entitled to it, and I am entitled to mine. Ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful's as Brady's ... he would say no.

[Roy Hobbs]

Not to mention Field goal kicking.  How many of Bradys victories came at the difference of having a clutch kicker or not??

If you think argueing of field goal kicks is stupid, then maybe we can give Peyton Manning Adam Vinnaiteri instead of Mike Vanderjagt for that clutch kick against the Steelers a few years ago, you could argue that was a difference between another ring for Manning......and to complete the swap, we can give the Pats Vanderjagt for one of those big kicks...and when he chokes that kick away, thats one less SB victory for the Pats.  And Hey that puts both QBs at 2 victories.

I know thats a lot of what if's but Im using it to illustrate a point that there are a team of players on the roster not just one.

Yeah, if Vanderjagt makes that kick, we'd probably be talking about how both Brady and Manning had a championship handed to them through instant replay.  (Remember that reversed Polamalu interception?)  That's one of the crazier calls I can remember, right up there with the tuck rule (which was probably the right call, but a stupid rule.)

[Rondo2287]

Any body else noticing that all the arguments for Manning start with a "What if"

[Roy Hobbs]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Lastly, how is the following quote *not* undercutting Manning's accomplishments?:

Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has.

If your intent wasn't to make Manning look bad, I'm not sure what you were going with with such an inaccurate statement.  Manning is putting up unbelievable numbers this season despite having a terrible running game and a mediocre receiving core.  Yet, you somehow think 66.7% of the QBs in this league would have equal success.  I just see no merit to this argument whatsoever.

And I don't agree with the argument that Manning is as successful as Brady, because he is not, as his lack of successive Super Bowl rings proves. As far as my "inaccurate statement", it's no more inacurrate than yours ... it's conjecture, like your statement stating that Manning would have had as many Super Bowl wins as Brady if under the same circumstances is conjecture ... I'm sorry, but all the stats in the world don't make Super Bowl wins, and you can tout all the wonderful things Manning has done and all the huge numbers he's put up in this "unbelievable" season, but until he wins two more Super Bowls, he will NOT have been as successful as Tom Brady ... and that's in HIS terms as well. Do you think Payton considers a great season without a Super Bowl chamionship successful? No way ... that's the goal, and everything else falls short. You may find no "merit" in my argument because it doesn't coincide with your view. Frankly, I think ANYONE with a valid opinion has merit to their argument, and I would never say that to you ... no matter how strongly I disagree with your opinion ... you're entitled to it, and I am entitled to mine. Ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful's as Brady's ... he would say no.

Some speculative arguments are stronger than others. 

I think if you asked 100 educated, non-biased NFL fans whether Manning would have been as successful as Brady if you swapped defenses, you'd get somewhere between 40% and 60% that said yes.

If you asked those same 100 fans whether 2/3rds of the QBs would put up the same numbers as Manning with a similar line, running game, and receivers, I think fewer than 10% would say yes.

I mean, this year Manning has a terrible running game and mediocre receivers, and he's 14-0, while leading the NFL in yardage.

[Bahku]

Any body else noticing that all the arguments for Manning start with a "What if"

Yeah, I noticed, Rondo. (TP)

[Bahku]

In the end, agree to disagree.

Absolutely ... I'm done with this one ... let's come back to it after Peyton has his other two Super Bowl rings. I'm beginning to see why the Patriots threads on Sunday are so quiet ... so be it, I'll continue being the very biased "homer" that I am, and continue getting queasy when I hear the media touting Peyton the way they do Kobe. I'll end with this: Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has ... and the endless time in the pocket to throw the ball. I promise I'm done this time ... TP's to all for a good discussion.

The Colts' rushing game isn't anything special.  The Colts average 86.1 rush yards per game and 3.7 yards per rush attempt.  The Pats average 118.5 rush yards per game and 4.1 yards per rush attempt.  In other words, Brady's got a much better overall rushing game to rely upon.

Manning certainly has a good O-Line in terms of pass-blocking, but he's got only one good receiver and a good tight end.  Collie and Garcon are barely competent, and yet Manning has made them look good this season.

I don't think there is any reason to undercut Manning's achievements.  He's having an excellent season, and certainly a better one than Brady.

I stated earlier that Peyton has had a better season than Brady, and I have not attempted to "undercut Manning's achievements" ... I am of the belief that Brady has accomplished more in his CAREER, in a shorter period of time, and I have seen no proof to the contrary. When it comes right down to it, the ultimate goal in this game is winning the Super Bowl ... and any NFL QB will attest to the fact that stats, numbers, records, and the like, are not what's important to them, and without winning a championship, short of their goals. Ultimate success in the NFL is defined in Super Bowl wins, (falling short of that is not what any QB wants or considers successful), and Brady has simply attained that ultimate goal and ultimate success more times than Manning ... with fewer games to work with.

There are 53 players on a football team.  QB is the most important position, but a QB alone can't determine if his team wins or loses.

As mentioned earlier, I have a hard time arguing that Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, or Jim McMahon are better than Dan Marino.  Winning is the ultimate goal, sure, but it's not something that is 100% in a QB's control.

By the way, Troy Aikman (who won three SBs) calls Manning "The most consistent QB -- week in and week out -- that I've ever seen".  If Manning had Brady's defense and coaching staff, he'd be the one with three (and probably four or more) rings right now.

Lastly, how is the following quote *not* undercutting Manning's accomplishments?:

Probably 2/3 of the QB's in the NFL could have put up the numbers Peyton has if they had had the same kind of receiving, running, and OL tools that Manning has.

If your intent wasn't to make Manning look bad, I'm not sure what you were going with with such an inaccurate statement.  Manning is putting up unbelievable numbers this season despite having a terrible running game and a mediocre receiving core.  Yet, you somehow think 66.7% of the QBs in this league would have equal success.  I just see no merit to this argument whatsoever.

And I don't agree with the argument that Manning is as successful as Brady, because he is not, as his lack of successive Super Bowl rings proves. As far as my "inaccurate statement", it's no more inacurrate than yours ... it's conjecture, like your statement stating that Manning would have had as many Super Bowl wins as Brady if under the same circumstances is conjecture ... I'm sorry, but all the stats in the world don't make Super Bowl wins, and you can tout all the wonderful things Manning has done and all the huge numbers he's put up in this "unbelievable" season, but until he wins two more Super Bowls, he will NOT have been as successful as Tom Brady ... and that's in HIS terms as well. Do you think Payton considers a great season without a Super Bowl chamionship successful? No way ... that's the goal, and everything else falls short. You may find no "merit" in my argument because it doesn't coincide with your view. Frankly, I think ANYONE with a valid opinion has merit to their argument, and I would never say that to you ... no matter how strongly I disagree with your opinion ... you're entitled to it, and I am entitled to mine. Ask Manning if he feels his career to this point is as successful's as Brady's ... he would say no.

Some speculative arguments are stronger than others. 

I think if you asked 100 educated, non-biased NFL fans whether Manning would have been as successful as Brady if you swapped defenses, you'd get somewhere between 40% and 60% that said yes.

If you asked those same 100 fans whether 2/3rds of the QBs would put up the same numbers as Manning with a similar line, running game, and receivers, I think fewer than 10% would say yes.

I mean, this year Manning has a terrible running game and mediocre receivers, and he's 14-0, while leading the NFL in yardage.

That's your opinion ... I believe the numbers would be much different ... and it's moot anyway. Ask Peyton if he's more successful than Brady ... he will say no ... I'd put that at about 99%. He would also say that if he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, his "unbelievable" numbers mean nothing.

[Bahku]

All yours ... I'm fried on this one ... and hungry for Sarku ... TP's all around!



Peace.

[Roy Hobbs]

That's your opinion ... I believe the numbers would be much different ... and it's moot anyway. Ask Peyton if he's more successful than Brady ... he will say no ... I'd put that at about 99%. He would also say that if he doesn't win the Super Bowl this year, his "unbelievable" numbers mean nothing.

Magic Johnson is more successful than Larry Bird.  Are you ready to concede that he's better?  Heck, Robert Horry has more rings than Michael Jordan.