End of game strategy: Pierce bringing the ball up

[nickagneta]

I've hated Pierce iso plays for the better part of five years. I really can't describe strongly enough how much I hate them. That said, allowing the opposition to perform a Hack-a-Rondo philosophy at the end of close games is foolish.

I say test it. Run everything the same and if the opposition employees the Hack-a-Rondo philosophy even once, switch it up and have Ray be the PG. and have Ray, Paul and KG play a triangle offense on one side of the court. If they don't try to foul Rondo, continuing running everything the same.

[Jaycelt]

Well, let's look at the results.
The two plays in the last few minutes that Rondo brought up the ball resulted in a Rondo turnover and a Rondo miss in which the Grizzlies forced Rondo to shoot with the shot clock running down.
Pierce brings it up and Garnett scores on the pick and pop.
Pierce brings it up and drives in for a layup on the same play.
Pierce brings it up and (surprise!) the Grizzlies know what's going to happen and defend it well enough to deflect the pass but Ray still gets the ball and the three.

I don't know why anyone would be complaining.  The play worked three times in a row, although a little bit of luck was involved in the 3rd.
Ego has nothing to do with it.  The Pierce/Garnett pick and roll has been money during this entire win streak and Doc knows it as well as anyone.

[Jaycelt]

The other team may elect to deny a pass but C's can move the other players to the wings and let Rondo take his man off the dribble.  No one can stay with him when he drives and no PG is big enough to block him.  Conley wouldn't have been able to stop him.  If someone helps out on the drive, Rondo will find the open man.

Everything you say is true but when we are using clock in end game situations we lose some of those advantages of having the ball in Rondo's hands and the defense can load up on our scorers as well as making Rondo make shots or free throws. Teams won't let him get to the basket wihout fouling him even if he does get away. Doc's no dummy.

[BballTim]

Well, let's look at the results.
The two plays in the last few minutes that Rondo brought up the ball resulted in a Rondo turnover and a Rondo miss in which the Grizzlies forced Rondo to shoot with the shot clock running down.
Pierce brings it up and Garnett scores on the pick and pop.
Pierce brings it up and drives in for a layup on the same play.
Pierce brings it up and (surprise!) the Grizzlies know what's going to happen and defend it well enough to deflect the pass but Ray still gets the ball and the three.

I don't know why anyone would be complaining.  The play worked three times in a row, although a little bit of luck was involved in the 3rd.
Ego has nothing to do with it.  The Pierce/Garnett pick and roll has been money during this entire win streak and Doc knows it as well as anyone.

  I don't think that's right. I think the play before Pierce hit the layup was the Rondo shot with the clock running down because Pierce had the ball until there was 8-9 seconds left and then threw it to Rondo in the corner. If you look at it like that it worked once in the last three possessions and we lucked into a three on another of the three. I think that we score less often when Paul or Ray bring the ball up than when Rondo brings it up and passes it to them. I don't like to see Paul or Ray bringing it up during most of the game but I don't have a huge problem with it when the other team's looking to foul us.

[Edgar]

Rondo was the best player yesterday
and score a good one even under a lot of pressure at the end
Sure he failed one but he was playing above his average
and maybe would have  a cleaner look if he just wait rondo to pass him the ball
I love pp but hate his iso plays too.hes not as fast as he used to be and thats dangerous

[scoop]

I mentioned it in the game thread last night but I'll reiterate it here.   I hated that possession.  The Celtics got bailed out with a very lucky play and shot by Ray Allen.  

I didn't, at all, like the idea of Pierce sitting at the top of the key dribbling down the shot clock while everyone around him was just standing around.  By the time things started to develop, there were less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock and the play seemed to provide to set us up a rather low percentage shot.  

This team thrives on the offensive end when there is passing and movement away from the ball, not isolation and stagnation.  I didn't like the idea of completely changed the offensive mentality at the end of the game to a method that I consider a weakness for this team.  

Every team runs ISOs at the end of close games because turnovers at that point are too costly. Every team tries to milk the clock in close games when they're leading the score.

Yes, Pierce is the better option, he's the better shot-creator off the dribble in the team (creating for himself+for teammates). Rondo would be forced to shoot or, best case scenario, fouled. 

[Donoghus]

I mentioned it in the game thread last night but I'll reiterate it here.   I hated that possession.  The Celtics got bailed out with a very lucky play and shot by Ray Allen.  

I didn't, at all, like the idea of Pierce sitting at the top of the key dribbling down the shot clock while everyone around him was just standing around.  By the time things started to develop, there were less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock and the play seemed to provide to set us up a rather low percentage shot.  

This team thrives on the offensive end when there is passing and movement away from the ball, not isolation and stagnation.  I didn't like the idea of completely changed the offensive mentality at the end of the game to a method that I consider a weakness for this team.  

Every team runs ISOs at the end of close games because turnovers at that point are too costly. Every team tries to milk the clock in close games when they're leading the score.

Yes, Pierce is the better option, he's the better shot-creator off the dribble in the team (creating for himself+for teammates). Rondo would be forced to shoot or, best case scenario, fouled. 

I understand the concept and idea of running ISOs at the end of close games. We went into this mode on multiple possessions trying to ice the game. I just feel that when the Celtics change to this mode, they are doing themselves a disservice because my feeling is that it plays into one of our weaknesses; offensive stagnation.  This teams feeds on passing or, at least, player movement away from the ball.  When Pierce is sitting at the top of the key dribbling away, the movement away from the balls seems to dissipate.  Then the shot clock goes to single digits when things finally do start to develop.  We settled for a running 3 pointer off that originated off a deflected pass.  Luckily, the shot fell but I didn't feel good about the buildup to the play then and I still don't the day after.

This wasn't a single possession at the end of a quarter, this was multiple possessions down the stretch.  My frustration stems from that. 

[scoop]

I see your point, but that's also true for most teams, not just the Celtics. During the game most teams run the pick'n'roll late in possessions when they need to take a shot off; when they're leading during crunch time they freeze the ball for most of the clock and go directly to that stage.

[Donoghus]

I see your point, but that's also true for most teams, not just the Celtics. During the game most teams run the pick'n'roll late in possessions when they need to take a shot off; when they're leading during crunch time they freeze the ball for most of the clock and go directly to that stage.

Realistically, I don't think Doc is going to go away from this.  Right now, the comfort level is with your veterans (Pierce & Allen) knowing that they'll tend to make the right decisions, limit turnovers, and make free throws. 

Its just extremely frustrating to watch an offense undergo a complete 180 transformation in the final minutes of a game to a form that I feel is nowhere as near reliable as the normal offensive sets.

It's almost as though they take a "play not to lose" mentality in these situations.

[Bankshot]

Final minutes of a close game?  I want the ball in Paul's hands.  It has always been that way, why would it change now?  You talk about the one time it almost didn't work out, but what about the hundreds of times it does work?

[mgent]

I mentioned it in the game thread last night but I'll reiterate it here.   I hated that possession.  The Celtics got bailed out with a very lucky play and shot by Ray Allen.  

I didn't, at all, like the idea of Pierce sitting at the top of the key dribbling down the shot clock while everyone around him was just standing around.  By the time things started to develop, there were less than 10 seconds left on the shot clock and the play seemed to provide to set us up a rather low percentage shot.  

This team thrives on the offensive end when there is passing and movement away from the ball, not isolation and stagnation.  I didn't like the idea of completely changed the offensive mentality at the end of the game to a method that I consider a weakness for this team.  

Every team runs ISOs at the end of close games because turnovers at that point are too costly. Every team tries to milk the clock in close games when they're leading the score.

Yes, Pierce is the better option, he's the better shot-creator off the dribble in the team (creating for himself+for teammates). Rondo would be forced to shoot or, best case scenario, fouled. 

I think that's basically what it comes down to.

Rondo's better at creating for other people, Pierce is better at creating for himself.  Good for the last play, but  we shouldn't do that the whole final stretch.

[Neurotic Guy]

Up by 2 with more than 24 seconds left (and up to about a minute or so left) is the perfect time for Hack-a-Rondo.  I'd do it since the odds are about 50/50 that the C's will hit a shot for 2 (or 3) and much better than 50/50 that Rondo will miss at least one FT.  Taking the ball out of Rondo's hands makes sense in that siituation.

The real question is do the Celtics benefit from having him on the floor in that situation?  I think the anwser depends on how Rondo is doing defensively and on the boards (I know, strange thought), and whether having him on the court on offense can draw attention or create enough disruption to make it better than throwing Eddie out there.  

They should not put the ball in his hands with time running out (but more than 24) and up by 2 because opposing teams have an almost automatic chance to create a one possession game.  Under 24 left, when teams have to foul, we have to all be in agreement -- ball goes to Ray whenever possible.

[snively]

It works in very small doses.  But defenses adjust.  The advantage of giving it to Rondo is he's able to adjust on the fly.  He also has a much better sense of where all 4 of his teammates are, while Pierce tends to zero in on the basket and his one outlet. 

I think last nights Pierce-centric run had a lot to do with Rondo's 2 turnovers.

[Jaycelt]

Well, let's look at the results.
The two plays in the last few minutes that Rondo brought up the ball resulted in a Rondo turnover and a Rondo miss in which the Grizzlies forced Rondo to shoot with the shot clock running down.
Pierce brings it up and Garnett scores on the pick and pop.
Pierce brings it up and drives in for a layup on the same play.
Pierce brings it up and (surprise!) the Grizzlies know what's going to happen and defend it well enough to deflect the pass but Ray still gets the ball and the three.

I don't know why anyone would be complaining.  The play worked three times in a row, although a little bit of luck was involved in the 3rd.
Ego has nothing to do with it.  The Pierce/Garnett pick and roll has been money during this entire win streak and Doc knows it as well as anyone.

  I don't think that's right. I think the play before Pierce hit the layup was the Rondo shot with the clock running down because Pierce had the ball until there was 8-9 seconds left and then threw it to Rondo in the corner. If you look at it like that it worked once in the last three possessions and we lucked into a three on another of the three. I think that we score less often when Paul or Ray bring the ball up than when Rondo brings it up and passes it to them. I don't like to see Paul or Ray bringing it up during most of the game but I don't have a huge problem with it when the other team's looking to foul us.

You are not remembering correctly.  The play by play backs me up.

2:14 Rajon Rondo bad pass (Mike Conley steals) 103-97   
2:11 Kevin Garnett personal foul (Mike Conley draws the foul) 103-97   
1:58   103-99 Rudy Gay makes driving layup
1:35 Rajon Rondo misses 22-foot jumper 103-99   
1:34   103-99 O.J. Mayo defensive rebound
1:29   103-101 O.J. Mayo makes 16-foot two point shot
1:29 Boston full timeout
1:20 Kevin Garnett makes 22-foot jumper (Paul Pierce assists) 105-101   
1:04 Kendrick Perkins personal foul (Marc Gasol draws the foul) 105-101   
1:04 Rasheed Wallace enters the game for Kendrick Perkins 105-101   
1:04   105-102 Marc Gasol makes free throw 1 of 2
1:04   105-103 Marc Gasol makes free throw 2 of 2
0:48 Paul Pierce makes layup 107-103   
0:48 Memphis 20 Sec. timeout
0:42   107-105 O.J. Mayo makes 20-foot jumper (Mike Conley assists)
0:17 Ray Allen makes three point jumper 110-105   
0:17 Memphis full timeout
0:13   110-105 Zach Randolph bad pass (Rasheed Wallace steals)
0:07   110-105 Rudy Gay personal foul (Paul Pierce draws the foul)
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter
0:00 End Game

So, the play did work 3 times in a row.  In fact, I don't even remember Pierce touching the ball on Rondo's miss, although I wouldn't swear to it.

[Roy Hobbs]

So, the play did work 3 times in a row. 

I think we're really stretching things if we say the play "worked" on Ray's three pointer.  I guess ultimately things turned out okay, but that was very close to a turnover.  The Celts were pretty fortunate that Ray nailed that jumper off of a broken play.

I think the offense runs more efficiently with Rondo handling the ball (especially since otherwise, the team is playing 4-on-5 offense).  Pierce is more turnover prone than Rondo, and he isn't as good of a distributor.  However, I understand the desire to combat the "hack a Rondo" strategy.