Shelden Williams very good D

[Global Celtic]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

[Fafnir]

I can't understand Doc's relutance to play some guys. Shelden Willimas has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup?

Because against many opponents Shelden gets lost on defensive rotations, he also gives up some extra height.

You also need to consider he's a pretty bad offensive player. He fumbled 3 posessions that should have been dunks last night. His 49& FG is pretty awful for a player who takes the sort of shots he does.

[Atzar]

I can't understand Doc's relutance to play some guys. Shelden Willimas has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup?

Because against many opponents Shelden gets lots of defensive rotations, he also gives up some extra height.

You also need to consider he's a pretty bad offensive player. He fumbled 3 posessions that should have been dunks last night. His 49& FG is pretty awful for a player who takes the sort of shots he does.

Those missed dunks made me want to cry.  He has no leaping ability at all - never have I seen somebody that tall and that long have that much trouble dunking.

[scoop]

Hands of stone.

I more or less agree with your point, he plays solid defence down low (he's bad when his man moves away from the paint though) and he's a very solid rebounder. But Sheed is just as good (except that he's a very mediocre rebounder, but he's much better awareness on team defence, even if he sometimes is a step later)and is a better fit on the offence with his ability to stretch the floor and, well, catch passes. And you can't bench Rasheed Wallace to play Shelden Williams even if here and there that would be the better option.

[jdpapa3]

I think he did well last night, but in all other games it hasn't been very tough to score on Shelden.

[Bankshot]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

Shelden is not as good as you think he is.  Hands of stone!  Now if Scal was playing instead of Shelden, then you might have an argument.

[Fan from VT]

I can't understand Doc's relutance to play some guys. Shelden Willimas has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup?

Because against many opponents Shelden gets lost on defensive rotations, he also gives up some extra height.

You also need to consider he's a pretty bad offensive player. He fumbled 3 posessions that should have been dunks last night. His 49& FG is pretty awful for a player who takes the sort of shots he does.

See I think a lot of this is perception and expectation.

As a top 5 pick Shelden was terrible, but as a minimum player he's a bargain.

For example, even though he fumbles passes and looks awkward, his TS% is 61% and even though he turns it over more than you'd want, his PER is up at 15.85.

In other words, I think people get a negative opinion of him because if he had great hands he could be very good so it's frustrating, but the end result is that he's good. I think it's an issue of when a guy looks like a 3 but through effort and coordination plays like a 5, compared to when a guy looks like a 8 but because he's not as coordinated gives you a 6, everyone thinks the "5" is "better" because he's getting more out of his talents even though the underacheiving "8" is still giving you more actual result.

As an extreme, lester hudson could bust his butt off and exceed his natural talents and Vince Carter could be at his maximal coasting, and VC would give you the better chance of winning 100/100.


I don't necessarily want to turn this into a Williams vs. Davis thing, but for the sake of comparision, since at the extreme some people think Davis could be an adequate starter, here we go, comparing Williams this year to Davis last year:

P/40 R/40 A/40 TS%  FG  FT ASTRATE TORATE RBRATE PER Williams 13.8  10.6  2.0  61.9   .491  .811   12.9    14.8    16.8    15.9 Davis       13.0   7.4   1.7  50.2   .492  .730   10.3    10.6    11.2    10.8

So again, not a vs. thing, but by essentially any measure, Williams has been better on offense this year is almost every way than Davis was throughout last year, when Davis was considered a good backup. They look different; Davis looks more animated and interesting, but this year's williams has so far been better than last year's regular season Davis in terms of actual results.

As for defense, safe to say that both need work. However, as a team it sure seems we are good at forcing bad shots, but not so good at securing the miss, a very important part of good defense; despite his stone hands, Sheldon is much better at rebounding than Davis, so I like him out there when Perk is on the bench.



I'm not saying Sheldon is a better player than Davis, at least not until Davis gets a  few games in this season. However, I do think he gets a negative reputation based on how he looks and how good it seems he should be, whereas Davis gets bonus respect for being better than it looks like he could be. Just remember that Player 1 exceeding expectations and player 2 falling short of expectations does not mean that player 1's on court contributions are more posititve than player 2's.

[Chris]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

While Shelden has some strengths on defense, he also has some major weaknesses.  Particularly in team defense.  He has been mediocre at best (and I think that is being generous) when it comes to defensive rotations.  He is often a step or two late, and has not been closing out lanes like he should.  He also struggles when having to guard guys on the perimeter (which big men need to do in the C's scheme).

Ultimately, I think a lot of this comes from being a shot blocker in college.  He never really had to worry that much about defensive positioning, because he was able to just roam around and block shots in help defense.  Unfortunately, his lack of elite length and athleticism, make him a much less effective shot blocker in the pros...not to mention illegal defense calls.  So when he came into the league, he was basically starting over when it comes to learning how to play defense.  He needed to learn how to be a good position defender, and he has not learned how to do that yet. 

[Global Celtic]

I can't understand Doc's relutance to play some guys. Shelden Willimas has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup?

Because against many opponents Shelden gets lost on defensive rotations, he also gives up some extra height.

You also need to consider he's a pretty bad offensive player. He fumbled 3 posessions that should have been dunks last night. His 49& FG is pretty awful for a player who takes the sort of shots he does.

See I think a lot of this is perception and expectation.

As a top 5 pick Shelden was terrible, but as a minimum player he's a bargain.

For example, even though he fumbles passes and looks awkward, his TS% is 61% and even though he turns it over more than you'd want, his PER is up at 15.85.

In other words, I think people get a negative opinion of him because if he had great hands he could be very good so it's frustrating, but the end result is that he's good. I think it's an issue of when a guy looks like a 3 but through effort and coordination plays like a 5, compared to when a guy looks like a 8 but because he's not as coordinated gives you a 6, everyone thinks the "5" is "better" because he's getting more out of his talents even though the underacheiving "8" is still giving you more actual result.

As an extreme, lester hudson could bust his butt off and exceed his natural talents and Vince Carter could be at his maximal coasting, and VC would give you the better chance of winning 100/100.


I don't necessarily want to turn this into a Williams vs. Davis thing, but for the sake of comparision, since at the extreme some people think Davis could be an adequate starter, here we go, comparing Williams this year to Davis last year:

P/40 R/40 A/40 TS%  FG  FT ASTRATE TORATE RBRATE PER Williams 13.8  10.6  2.0  61.9   .491  .811   12.9    14.8    16.8    15.9 Davis       13.0   7.4   1.7  50.2   .492  .730   10.3    10.6    11.2    10.8

So again, not a vs. thing, but by essentially any measure, Williams has been better on offense this year is almost every way than Davis was throughout last year, when Davis was considered a good backup. They look different; Davis looks more animated and interesting, but this year's williams has so far been better than last year's regular season Davis in terms of actual results.

As for defense, safe to say that both need work. However, as a team it sure seems we are good at forcing bad shots, but not so good at securing the miss, a very important part of good defense; despite his stone hands, Sheldon is much better at rebounding than Davis, so I like him out there when Perk is on the bench.



I'm not saying Sheldon is a better player than Davis, at least not until Davis gets a  few games in this season. However, I do think he gets a negative reputation based on how he looks and how good it seems he should be, whereas Davis gets bonus respect for being better than it looks like he could be. Just remember that Player 1 exceeding expectations and player 2 falling short of expectations does not mean that player 1's on court contributions are more posititve than player 2's.

Agreed. But I think he's worth more than 13mpg, especially if Rasheed is bricking those irritating threes.

[ThaPreacher]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

Shelden is not as good as you think he is.  Hands of stone!  Now if Scal was playing instead of Shelden, then you might have an argument.

ROF****!
Scalabrine over Sheed!  What's next you want to throw Joe Johnson in on the trade for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk, over Kedrick Brown.  Good Gawd no!  Let Scal wave the towel and fetch the water, before his expiring contract is traded!

[Fafnir]

Fan from VT, we've been over this. Shelden is a worse offensive player than BBD. He shoots a worse percentage from everywhere on the court. (at least before this year)

What he does do fortunately is take more inside shots than BBD. He also turns it over a lot more, and in general doesn't pass as well. Truly a stone hands player.

What he does do is rebound, which is what will always keep BBD from being anything more than a backup. Its also why I imagine the two of them will be platooning against certain matchups.

He's a valuable player at the minimum, but he shouldn't be taking Sheed's minutes.

[Birdbrain]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

Probably his awful hands and rather pedestrian inside game.  I don't think I would use agile or athletic ever to describe sheldon.  More like lumbering and stone handed.

He'll be practice fodder once BBD comes back.

[2short]

one note on rasheed, he really does play good defense
i have no idea why he thinks he needs to shoot more than 3 threes a game (remember when mchale found that shot )

Shelden Williams I feel is better than davis in all aspects except defensive rotations.  They will be fighting over pt (in my mind) maybe not docs.  I feel shelden does ONE THING better than any big even kg...he continues to move his feet on rebounds.  This is our big problem.  When a shot goes up we don't have a   (sorry to use his name) dennis rodman type player who will go after rebounds.  All our bigs tend to stay where they are when shot goes up.  Larry Bird was a GREAT rebounder because of this, he boxed out but would continue to get into posistion to get the rebound.  Sheldon keeps the ball alive better than most on our team.

[Fafnir]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

While Shelden has some strengths on defense, he also has some major weaknesses.  Particularly in team defense.  He has been mediocre at best (and I think that is being generous) when it comes to defensive rotations.  He is often a step or two late, and has not been closing out lanes like he should.  He also struggles when having to guard guys on the perimeter (which big men need to do in the C's scheme).

Ultimately, I think a lot of this comes from being a shot blocker in college.  He never really had to worry that much about defensive positioning, because he was able to just roam around and block shots in help defense.  Unfortunately, his lack of elite length and athleticism, make him a much less effective shot blocker in the pros...not to mention illegal defense calls.  So when he came into the league, he was basically starting over when it comes to learning how to play defense.  He needed to learn how to be a good position defender, and he has not learned how to do that yet. 

I think he's made progress. What worries me is how much trouble he has iniating the offense when he's handed the ball in the high post. Too often with the bench he ends up just standing there and we lose too much time off the shot clock.

[Bankshot]

I can't understand Doc's reluctance to play some guys. Shelden Williams has been doing a great job on defense, where he's a much more ahtletic, agile post defender than Rasheed.
Brendan Haywood was killing us in the paint and Shelden did a great job on him. He's great on D and solid on offense (49% FG and 81% FT), so why not play him as Perk's real backup? Rasheed's too inconsistent on both ends.

Shelden is not as good as you think he is.  Hands of stone!  Now if Scal was playing instead of Shelden, then you might have an argument.

ROF****!
Scalabrine over Sheed!  What's next you want to throw Joe Johnson in on the trade for Rodney Rogers and Tony Delk, over Kedrick Brown.  Good Gawd no!  Let Scal wave the towel and fetch the water, before his expiring contract is traded!

When did I say Scal should play over Sheed? I said the OP would have a case if Scal was playing instead of Shelden.