Author Topic: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance  (Read 8295 times)

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Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2009, 09:23:20 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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His last two stops have made it clear he's not comfortable coming off the bench.

That's all we could have offered him, better for both parties that he went to Philly.
He said he'd come off the bench for a contender.  Contender is what we are.  Moot point, but I still wish we'd have given it a shot.
He also said he'd do what's best for the team in Detroit.

He also smiled and said he was grateful for the opportunity in Memphis.

What he says publically when he's looking for a job is much different than what he'd accept once he got there.
Being discontented with coming off the bench for pathetic Memphis and accepting that role on the Celtics are two different matters entirely.  We'll never know what the expectations were or whether they were communicated properly to him in Memphis.

I know he's been an arsehat at previous stops.  I'm saying I'd have taken the practically no-risk chance that he'd behave differently with the veteran future hall of famers we have, and that he'd make a better backup PG and SG than we'd otherwise get.

We'll never know.
Why does everyone say it would be no risk. It would be a huge risk.

What happens when it doesn't turn out okay and you've cut and paid a player, cut and paid AI, paid the luxury tax on both and now have to go out to sign another guy and pay another tax? The C's could be looking at an additional payroll hit of somewhere between $2-$3.5 million. Do you think the C's ownership considers that a non risky amount of money?

What happens if Rasheed Wallace has some bad feelings about AI and doesn't want him here and then decides to give up on the team for signing him? Is that a risk management would want to take?

What happens if Rondo feels threaten by AI and starts causing problems? Are those risks that Doc would be okay with?

What happens if AI starts causing situations with the Big Three or poorly influencing the work habits and attitudes of the young players the Celtics have? Are those risks anyone in the organization would want to risk?

These are big risks in may book.

AI ended up in a situation that is best for the Sixers, best for AI and best for the Celtics. Good luck to him where he is.

I really don't think you are giving any credit to Sheed or Rondo. If Rondo and Sheed are that pathetic i would not want them on my team at all. We talked about Rondo maybe having some doubts his second year in when we picked up Cassel and then he didn't at all. At this point it would be laughable if Rondo felt threatened by AI. Same with Sheed. If Sheed is going to give up on our team because the Celtics decided to sign someone that he didn't really like then I would like to cut Sheed right now. I'm pretty sure signing AI to a non-guaranteed contract really wouldn't have "threatened" Rondo and pretty sure Sheed wouldn't "give up on the team". I guess thats me though...
And I really think you don't know these people, their egos, their likes or dislikes or how certain personalities interact. I think you are over estimating how petty big time athletes can be for perceived previous wrongs or how insecure they can be if things aren't going their way.

Say "if they are like that then you would rather not have them" but if you really knew what went on in some locker rooms and saw the way some guys acted, you probably wouldn't have been a fan of very many teams or players.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2009, 09:37:48 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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His last two stops have made it clear he's not comfortable coming off the bench.

That's all we could have offered him, better for both parties that he went to Philly.
He said he'd come off the bench for a contender.  Contender is what we are.  Moot point, but I still wish we'd have given it a shot.
He also said he'd do what's best for the team in Detroit.

He also smiled and said he was grateful for the opportunity in Memphis.

What he says publically when he's looking for a job is much different than what he'd accept once he got there.
Being discontented with coming off the bench for pathetic Memphis and accepting that role on the Celtics are two different matters entirely.  We'll never know what the expectations were or whether they were communicated properly to him in Memphis.

I know he's been an arsehat at previous stops.  I'm saying I'd have taken the practically no-risk chance that he'd behave differently with the veteran future hall of famers we have, and that he'd make a better backup PG and SG than we'd otherwise get.

We'll never know.
Why does everyone say it would be no risk. It would be a huge risk.

What happens when it doesn't turn out okay and you've cut and paid a player, cut and paid AI, paid the luxury tax on both and now have to go out to sign another guy and pay another tax? The C's could be looking at an additional payroll hit of somewhere between $2-$3.5 million. Do you think the C's ownership considers that a non risky amount of money?

What happens if Rasheed Wallace has some bad feelings about AI and doesn't want him here and then decides to give up on the team for signing him? Is that a risk management would want to take?

What happens if Rondo feels threaten by AI and starts causing problems? Are those risks that Doc would be okay with?

What happens if AI starts causing situations with the Big Three or poorly influencing the work habits and attitudes of the young players the Celtics have? Are those risks anyone in the organization would want to risk?

These are big risks in may book.

AI ended up in a situation that is best for the Sixers, best for AI and best for the Celtics. Good luck to him where he is.

I really don't think you are giving any credit to Sheed or Rondo. If Rondo and Sheed are that pathetic i would not want them on my team at all. We talked about Rondo maybe having some doubts his second year in when we picked up Cassel and then he didn't at all. At this point it would be laughable if Rondo felt threatened by AI. Same with Sheed. If Sheed is going to give up on our team because the Celtics decided to sign someone that he didn't really like then I would like to cut Sheed right now. I'm pretty sure signing AI to a non-guaranteed contract really wouldn't have "threatened" Rondo and pretty sure Sheed wouldn't "give up on the team". I guess thats me though...
And I really think you don't know these people, their egos, their likes or dislikes or how certain personalities interact. I think you are over estimating how petty big time athletes can be for perceived previous wrongs or how insecure they can be if things aren't going their way.

Say "if they are like that then you would rather not have them" but if you really knew what went on in some locker rooms and saw the way some guys acted, you probably wouldn't have been a fan of very many teams or players.

I'm just saying for this whole "ubuntu" thing that this whole team supposedly buys into that it would be pretty funny if Rondo became extremely jealous and catty because we signed AI to a non-guaranteed 1 year deal. Same goes with Sheed. I think if anything Rondo has a pretty thick skin considering he has dealt with Cassell and Marbury the past 2 years and from what I saw he actually enjoyed having them on the team. Now we don't know if that would have been the case with AI but I'm just saying you aren't really offering up any examples of Rondo feeling threatened or whatever.

Yeah I said I wouldn't want them on my team if they were like that. I love my players to have ego's but if management has to worry about a small signing like this would have been than I don't want those players on my team.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2009, 09:41:43 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Really wish we'd have given AI a shot.  For vet minimum seems like it was practically risk free.  Sixers even have an option to drop him in January.  Oh well.

I know this is a dead issue, but just having him return tonight made me think this again.

Why, so we could lose to Denver too?

You're living in the past, my friend.  I used to to that when I was younger, but now I don't have time for it.

That's what happens when AI tries to play team ball on a bad team....they end up losing.

Sixers had no business winning this game. They are playing a top team in the NBA, are on a 9 game losing streak, missing one of their starters, inserting a new player on the team into the starting lineup. Oh, and the sixers are terrible.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2009, 09:42:43 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Yeah I said I wouldn't want them on my team if they were like that. I love my players to have ego's but if management has to worry about a small signing like this would have been than I don't want those players on my team.
I think signing Allen Iverson would be a big deal. It certainly would be to the media and Celtics fans!

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2009, 09:54:09 PM »

Offline CelticG1

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Yeah I said I wouldn't want them on my team if they were like that. I love my players to have ego's but if management has to worry about a small signing like this would have been than I don't want those players on my team.
I think signing Allen Iverson would be a big deal. It certainly would be to the media and Celtics fans!

By small signing I meant money and year wise. It's not like Rondo would have to deal with him for 5 more years. In any major signing (money and year wise) I can see management being very cautious with how other players would perceive and react to the signing where I just don't see that being the case with AI. He would have been a 1 year non-guaranteed contract to come off the bench.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2009, 10:03:58 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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Yeah I said I wouldn't want them on my team if they were like that. I love my players to have ego's but if management has to worry about a small signing like this would have been than I don't want those players on my team.
I think signing Allen Iverson would be a big deal. It certainly would be to the media and Celtics fans!

By small signing I meant money and year wise. It's not like Rondo would have to deal with him for 5 more years. In any major signing (money and year wise) I can see management being very cautious with how other players would perceive and react to the signing where I just don't see that being the case with AI. He would have been a 1 year non-guaranteed contract to come off the bench.
We're in win now mode, if AI's signing in any way hurt our chances of putting up Banner 18 that'd be a very big deal. Rondo may have a 5 year deal but KG/Pierce/Allen aren't going to be a high level trio for much longer.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2009, 10:07:17 PM »

Offline Mencius

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His last two stops have made it clear he's not comfortable coming off the bench.

That's all we could have offered him, better for both parties that he went to Philly.
He said he'd come off the bench for a contender.  Contender is what we are.  Moot point, but I still wish we'd have given it a shot.
He also said he'd do what's best for the team in Detroit.

He also smiled and said he was grateful for the opportunity in Memphis.

What he says publically when he's looking for a job is much different than what he'd accept once he got there.
Being discontented with coming off the bench for pathetic Memphis and accepting that role on the Celtics are two different matters entirely.  We'll never know what the expectations were or whether they were communicated properly to him in Memphis.

I know he's been an arsehat at previous stops.  I'm saying I'd have taken the practically no-risk chance that he'd behave differently with the veteran future hall of famers we have, and that he'd make a better backup PG and SG than we'd otherwise get.

We'll never know.
Why does everyone say it would be no risk. It would be a huge risk.

What happens when it doesn't turn out okay and you've cut and paid a player, cut and paid AI, paid the luxury tax on both and now have to go out to sign another guy and pay another tax? The C's could be looking at an additional payroll hit of somewhere between $2-$3.5 million. Do you think the C's ownership considers that a non risky amount of money?

What happens if Rasheed Wallace has some bad feelings about AI and doesn't want him here and then decides to give up on the team for signing him? Is that a risk management would want to take?

What happens if Rondo feels threaten by AI and starts causing problems? Are those risks that Doc would be okay with?

What happens if AI starts causing situations with the Big Three or poorly influencing the work habits and attitudes of the young players the Celtics have? Are those risks anyone in the organization would want to risk?

These are big risks in may book.

AI ended up in a situation that is best for the Sixers, best for AI and best for the Celtics. Good luck to him where he is.
You certainly have a lot of what ifs there.  There were legitimate questions about bringing him on, but the financial one seems plain silly.  He just signed with Philly for vet minimum, which if I'm not mistaken, the league picks up a fair portion of it (I realize there's also a cap hit), but strictly talent-wise, for vet minimum, AI is a no brainer (strictly talent-wise, mind you).  I wouldn't even consider bringing in AI if we were a developing team.  For a developing team he'd be strictly a marketing gimmick, who'd at most win a struggling team a few more games and fill seats, but ultimately probably cost the team a better pick.  Marketing gimmick.  The only reason I'd bring him in is if we were in contention to win it all this year, which we are.  I wouldn't be the least concerned about his work habits influencing the few young players on the team.  We have plenty of strong veteran leadership to counteract that, and besides, other than Rondo, and perhaps Baby, who would he influence?  Hudson, JR, Billy?  This would be about THIS year.  None of those 3 factor into that equation.

Sure, there'd be some risk involved in bringing him in.  I personally would have given it a shot.  Clearly, it wasn't unanimous to bring him in among Celts brass, so it's moot, but he'd surely be the best backup PG we could have got, and as to him playing some 2, I'd imagine they could play him with Marquis, just the same way they do with Eddie, and Iverson, aside from stroking the 3, is clearly better than Eddie in every other facet.  Talent-wise, at vet min, this would have been a no brainer.  Not bringing him on here was not about talent or money.  Other considerations proved greater for the brain trust, so they didn't pursue it.  I wish they had but will lose no sleep over it.


Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2009, 10:16:59 PM »

Offline LB3533

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Really wish we'd have given AI a shot.  For vet minimum seems like it was practically risk free.  Sixers even have an option to drop him in January.  Oh well.

I know this is a dead issue, but just having him return tonight made me think this again.

Why, so we could lose to Denver too?

You're living in the past, my friend.  I used to to that when I was younger, but now I don't have time for it.

That's what happens when AI tries to play team ball on a bad team....they end up losing.

Sixers had no business winning this game. They are playing a top team in the NBA, are on a 9 game losing streak, missing one of their starters, inserting a new player on the team into the starting lineup. Oh, and the sixers are terrible.

When you say it like that, then yeah....they had no business being in the game for 3 quarters.

But if AI dropped 40, they might have won.

Thaddeus Young as your 4th Quarter "go to" player.

Something's wrong.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2009, 10:29:18 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion for you.

It's not 2000 anymore.  If you check your calendar, you will see that it will be 2010 in 24 days.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2009, 10:40:15 PM »

Offline Mencius

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Let me see if I can clear up some of the confusion for you.

It's not 2000 anymore.  If you check your calendar, you will see that it will be 2010 in 24 days.
Try punching just below that surface level with your analysis.  See, it's wonderful recognizing that it's not 2000, but it'd be even better to recognize that he's not making 2000's salary of 17m, or whatever thereabouts it was.  He's making vet minimum.  And while he's not the player he was then (nor is KG, Pierce, Ray, or Wallace), he's certainly huge, huge value at vet minimum, and better talent-wise at that price, or anywhere near that price than we could otherwise obtain.  It wasn't about salary or talent.


Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2009, 10:46:33 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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He's not having any more 40 point nights, and if he does, his team will lose.

The Celtics definitely need a backup pg, but Iverson (1) isn't a point guard, and (2) doesn't want to come off the bench.

Let me put it yet another way.  If I had my choice between Iverson and Jrue Holiday, I'd take Holiday.

For the Sixers this is about selling tickets.  It's not about winning.  Iverson scored 11 points in 37 minutes.  So where wre the other 29 points?

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2009, 10:54:16 PM »

Offline Mencius

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He's not having any more 40 point nights, and if he does, his team will lose.

The Celtics definitely need a backup pg, but Iverson (1) isn't a point guard, and (2) doesn't want to come off the bench.

Let me put it yet another way.  If I had my choice between Iverson and Jrue Holiday, I'd take Holiday.

For the Sixers this is about selling tickets.  It's not about winning.  Iverson scored 11 points in 37 minutes.  So where wre the other 29 points?
What a complete non sequiter about him scoring 40 or not.  We wouldn't have been asking him to do so.  He's certainly no classic PG, but he's surely better than anything we've presently got trying to fill the backup PG role.  He said he'd come off the bench for a contender.

Of course it's a marketing gimmick for the Sixers (as it was for Memphis) to have him on the team.  He only makes sense for a contender.

Jrue Holiday as your backup PG on a championship contender?  LOL, okay.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2009, 10:56:06 PM »

Offline Fafnir

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He's not a gimmick for 76ers. They're desperate for a PG and just production on their team due to injuries and overall poor play.

Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2009, 11:17:12 PM »

Offline Mencius

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He's not a gimmick for 76ers. They're desperate for a PG and just production on their team due to injuries and overall poor play.
In the context that I'm using, gimmick in the sense that adding him to your team, if you're not a real contender, will not move you closer to being a contender.  He moves you further away (by getting you a worse draft position) even while he probably wins you a couple/few more games.  Still doesn't make you a contender, and takes developmental minutes from guys who may be part of your future.  But he does put fannies in the seats.

Granted, Philly has a real need for PGs with Williams out (and isn't Holliday injured too?), so there's need for a Pg in Philly, but I use the gimmick monicker for any team that brings on a former great on his last NBA legs to mainly fill seats but doesn't move you any closer to a championship.

It was the same for the C's when they were being built with youngins.  I didn't want to bring in vets to win a few more games at the expense of development if the vets we were bringing in would not make us true championship contenders.

So, the fundamental difference, ime, is that on a developing team, he may win you a couple more games and cost you a better draft position and take away development minutes.  But on a championship caliber team, the extra couple of games he wins you may just net you the championship.


Re: Moments to Iverson's return: wish we'd have taken a chance
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2009, 11:19:28 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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Now that the Sixers have Iverson, they will continue to lose... and lose... and lose.  The only difference is, more deluded Philadelphians will buy tickets to watch them lose.

Iverson is not what the Celtics need.  A player like Steve Blake or JJ Barea is what the Celtics need.  I'd even take the crazy, bipolar, gun totin' Delonte West long before I'd take Iverson.