Author Topic: Improvements All Around  (Read 4933 times)

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Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2009, 01:44:30 PM »

Offline Drucci

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To me, our top priorities are the rebounding (on defense especially, like you said) and Rondo. He must stop being so passive and waiting for his teammates to get open. At least, when he does that, he should consider attacking the hoop when nobody gets free because he always makes the pass and this results in nothing.

I'm pretty sure what you characterize as 'passive' is all part of Doc's game plan to funnel the ball to the Big 3 at the expense of often under-utilizing Rondo's strengths. 

Check out this quote from Rondo after Wednesday's game, describing what changed in the 2nd half:

Quote
We started calling plays for me in the pick-and-roll," Rondo said. "Sometimes when they switch, they'd show and get back. We tried to keep mixing it up with the play call and just get to the rim.

from http://espn.go.com/boston/columns/celtics/blog/_/post/4669562/name/forsberg

I admit, I sometimes have wondered if it was Rondo being 'passive' or Doc taking the ball out his hands.  This quote pretty much seals it, IMO. 

Doc, though he played point guard himself, wasn't actually a pure point--he was a combo guard with good handles and high IQ.  To him, he doesn't see the necessity of having a pure point, so much so that his offense is designed to run with or without a real point guard.  That's fine if you don't have a point.  But if you do, if you have one of the purest and most talented in the league, it's a huge waste of resources.

See, Doc would rather give iso opportunities throughout the course of the game to Ray or Paul, or put KG in pick-and-roll opportunities with Ray/Paul, than he would simply feed Rondo a high screen and let him penetrate and kick or score himself.  Wednesday's game was a classic example of this.  In the first half, we ran our 'offense'--that is, Rondo initiated offense (or House, for that matter) and then spotted up in the corner while Ray/Paul and KG played their two-man game.  In the 2nd half, we ran a high screen for Rondo about 80 percent of the time, resulting in about 12 points and 4 assists for Rajon, and a 31-19 advantage on the scoreboard. 

It's pretty clear to me that Rondo is at his best with the ball in his hands--he's our best decision maker, best ball handler, quickest transition player and best penetrator.  Yet, game after game, Rondo is reduced by our coach into a ball caddy for the Big 3. 

It's not a question of attacking the rim, it's a question of whether Doc is calling for high picks.  If he is, we'll see what we saw in the 2nd half on Wednesday.  If not, we'll get what we got in the 1st half.

The thing is, not only are we 'wasting' what Rondo could bring us, we're also running Ray/Paul into the ground asking them to carry more of the burden than they have to.  With Rondo on this team, they should be simply focused on scoring--yet our offense funnels them creation responsibilities while rendering our poor shooting pure point into a spot up shooter.  Not only is it a mismanagement of resources on the starting unit, but Doc often compounds the problem further by using Ray/Paul as the 2nd unit bridge, further over-extending Ray/Paul while limiting the potential of our 2nd unit, since it is left without a real point guard. 

Bottom line: putting the ball in Rondo's hands, giving him a high screen on pretty much every possession is good for EVERYBODY, both in terms of offensive efficiency and maximizing the minutes of the Big 3.  And when we don't do that, it's not Rondo being passive, it's Rondo doing what Doc wants.

Wow, thanks the long and really interesting explanation! TP.

I guess Doc is the one to blame then, but I don't understand why he keeps using Rondo that way because, as you said, it doesn't take advantage of his skills and gives more responsibilities (and fatigue) to Paul and Ray when the idea is to give them rest...

Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2009, 01:45:51 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Yes, I think we need to get rid of the notion that Rondo lets his man go by with the purpose of poking the ball from behind. If a player does get by Rondo, give some credit to that player. Rondo didn't just "let" him blow by. Rondo is not a wall, and he never was. I don't think his stature and build allows him to be.

My argument was that Rondo letting his man get by him wasn't Doc's preference.

However, the question of whether Rondo lets his guy by him on purpose to go for steals is an open issue.  Rondo admitted this pre-season that he's done that on a consistent basis as recently as last year.  We have no idea if he's still doing it.

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Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2009, 01:50:42 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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About Rondo... maybe it's Doc's call that he's fishing for steals instead of keeping his man in front of him. I think I wouldn't mind him letting his man past him as long as -and here it is- defensive rotations can make up for his gambles.

I can guarantee it's not Doc's call.  In fact, this exact issue came up earlier, and Doc said he doesn't like the practice (See here.)  He indicated that any time you let the opposing point guard into the paint, something bad is likely to happen.  At the time, Rondo agreed, and said he was going to play more fundamental defense this year.  So much for that.

  Rondo's doing a significantly better job of keeping his man in front of him this year. But if Rondo does get beat or his guy gets past him because of a pick, what then? If he swipes at the ball there's a good chance he'll knock it loose. It's a smart play. Only then half the people here will claim that he let his guy get past him on purpose to try for the steal.

  You're also using quotes based on Rondo's play last year. What I've seen from Doc, his comments about Rondo's defense is generally pretty favorable.

Just about everyone on this board has seen a lot of defensive lapses from Rondo early this year.  We've had multiple topics on the fact that he appears disinterested and lazy, going for steals instead of the fundamental play.  That's consistent with my own view, as well.

Anyway, my post was in response to the thought that maybe Doc wanted Rondo to filter guards to our big men.  I guarantee that's not the case.

  Watch any point guard in the league and you'll see numerous defensive lapses in 12 games. Trust me, it's true.

  We've played 12 games. He's holding most of the opposing pgs to at or below their averages. They're getting significantly fewer inside shots than they did last year. His assist/turnover ratio is double what he allows. In short, he's had a few bad games but he's playing generally better than he did last year when he was 2nd team all-defense.

  Will he ever be good enough for people here? I doubt it, when his game is dissected to the point that deflections he causes are discounted because sometimes the deflections go to the other team.

BBallTim's right.  Rondo has improved this season in terms of keeping guys in front of him and limiting his gambling tendencies.  He's had a few poor defensive games as well, but overall he's improved.  That's all you can expect right now--gradual improvement.

I'd also point out (once again), that Rondo usually gambles if he sees that the big hasn't blitzed enough to stop the initial point of penetration on the pick-and-roll.  He's basically trying to do too much and cover for the mistakes of his teammates.  It's a problem he needs to correct, because you should never break defensive discipline simply because your teammates have done so--it just weakens the overall defensive consistency, creating a feedback loop of defensive gambling and a lack of discipline.  His heart is in the right place, but those plays are the equivalent of hero shots on the offensive end.  As he matures, he'll continue to do a better job limiting them.

One other thing: with the way the rules are structured (limiting hand-checking, for example), it's basically impossible to stop point guard dribble penetration, something even Doc Rivers has admitted.  Some people expect Rondo to be a 'shut-down' defender at the point guard--problem is, it's impossible with the rules currently in place. 

That said, relative to point guard defense around the league, Rondo's at or near the top
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Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 01:57:09 PM »

Offline Thruthelookingglass

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This is the best forum thread I've seen in weeks, thanks everyone!!!

Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 02:15:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Yes, I think we need to get rid of the notion that Rondo lets his man go by with the purpose of poking the ball from behind. If a player does get by Rondo, give some credit to that player. Rondo didn't just "let" him blow by. Rondo is not a wall, and he never was. I don't think his stature and build allows him to be.

My argument was that Rondo letting his man get by him wasn't Doc's preference.

However, the question of whether Rondo lets his guy by him on purpose to go for steals is an open issue.  Rondo admitted this pre-season that he's done that on a consistent basis as recently as last year.  We have no idea if he's still doing it.

  But we do know that he's letting his man get by him less than he did last year and we do know that Doc's said he's seen good improvement from Rondo. And "We have no idea if he's still doing it" is pretty much my point. We'll never know for sure. We won't know for sure that Rondo's not laying off of his man to cheat towards other players or the passing lane because he's following instructions or because he's lazy and disinterested. We won't know whether he passes it to Ray because Ray's open or because he's trying to pad his stats. People will wonder, every time he gets beat off the dribble or off a pick, whether it was because he wasn't trying or he let the guy go past him n purpose.

 You can watch him play and attribute every shortcoming or failure to possible character issues. You certainly won't be alone in your feeling. But in geneneral, if you judge his play outside the vacuum and compare his overall game and effectivenes to point guards on other teams he comes out looking pretty good.

Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2009, 02:20:33 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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I can't disagree with anything you said.  Take a TP.

Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2009, 02:23:49 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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One thing i've noticed with Rondo is that teams are starting to pick up his tendencies.

I can count about 7 or 8 times that on the Pick and pop with KG... the opposing PG has pretending to stick on Rondo, only to fade back and intercept his cute little hook pass.

Solution- Rajon Rondo needs to attack his man off of the pick and try to go to the hole.


Re: Improvements All Around
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2009, 02:41:56 PM »

Offline mgent

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About Rondo... maybe it's Doc's call that he's fishing for steals instead of keeping his man in front of him. I think I wouldn't mind him letting his man past him as long as -and here it is- defensive rotations can make up for his gambles.

I can guarantee it's not Doc's call.  In fact, this exact issue came up earlier, and Doc said he doesn't like the practice (See here.)  He indicated that any time you let the opposing point guard into the paint, something bad is likely to happen.  At the time, Rondo agreed, and said he was going to play more fundamental defense this year.  So much for that.

  Rondo's doing a significantly better job of keeping his man in front of him this year. But if Rondo does get beat or his guy gets past him because of a pick, what then? If he swipes at the ball there's a good chance he'll knock it loose. It's a smart play. Only then half the people here will claim that he let his guy get past him on purpose to try for the steal.

  You're also using quotes based on Rondo's play last year. What I've seen from Doc, his comments about Rondo's defense is generally pretty favorable.

Just about everyone on this board has seen a lot of defensive lapses from Rondo early this year.  We've had multiple topics on the fact that he appears disinterested and lazy, going for steals instead of the fundamental play.  That's consistent with my own view, as well.

Anyway, my post was in response to the thought that maybe Doc wanted Rondo to filter guards to our big men.  I guarantee that's not the case.

  Watch any point guard in the league and you'll see numerous defensive lapses in 12 games. Trust me, it's true.

  We've played 12 games. He's holding most of the opposing pgs to at or below their averages. They're getting significantly fewer inside shots than they did last year. His assist/turnover ratio is double what he allows. In short, he's had a few bad games but he's playing generally better than he did last year when he was 2nd team all-defense.

  Will he ever be good enough for people here? I doubt it, when his game is dissected to the point that deflections he causes are discounted because sometimes the deflections go to the other team.
I agree.  Most PGs are so fast that at times they're gonna blow past their defender no matter who they are.  I think maybe people are just noticing it more.

Also I've noticed that a lot of times Rondo avoids the pick, rather than running into it blindly like a lot of players do.  Maybe some people aren't noticing how much the picks are hurting because he's not flying backwards off of them.

Overall I think his defense could be better, but I think a lot of people are overreacting.
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