Nocioni/Posey/Alexander

[winsomme]

Ever since the decision to not re-sign Pose prior to last season, SF (with the ability to slide to PF for smallball) has been a need.

Nocioni fills the need. He can shoot, plays hard, and can slide to the 4 if needed.

Posey, however, is almost certainly also on the table for the struggling and salary overloaded Hornets. So, the question is whether Nocioni is a better fit than Pose.

Some will argue that Nocioni being a couple years younger will be a solid piece not only this year but the next two years of his contract as well. That's a fair point (although I expect Pose to play at a fairly consistent level over the next couple seasons). But the larger point for me is fit right now. Personally, Pose's defense puts him ahead of Nocioni as the better fit. Plus, he knows the systems that are in place here and is liked by teammates and fans.

The money is the same, so that is a push.

The other guy that is a total flyer is Joe Alexander. He would be a big question mark, but he has a skill set that could be a good fit. He played well in the summer league, so he could have made necessary physical and psychological adjustments coming off a disappointing season and be a nice young addition when he comes back from his hamstring injury. MIL has Illyasova and MBah ahead of him on their depth chart, so we might be able to get him pretty cheaply.

Final note, Nocioni is apparently dealing with a hip problem, so that could be a factor in any decision to trade for him....Not sure how bad the hip problem is...

[Drucci]

Just saw the hip problem with Nocioni but I think it's minor.

Anyway, I admit I would prefer to have Posey back... because his contract is as heavy as Nocioni's but we are sure that he will bring a lot to the table. Even though he is older than Nocioni, I still prefer Pose as a player - and a person - and, first and foremost, his defense. Posey knows our systems, we know he will fit in well if he comes back. Also, he would have a big motivation boost by leaving the Hornets (absolute chaos out there) for a championship team with his old buddies.

So, even though Nocioni sounds like the obvious choice because he is the most talented offensive guy, and the younger guy, I'd rather have Posey back. But I will be glad if we get Nocioni too, especially considering we would basically acquire him for useless players.

I trust Danny to see what his best choices are on the market, and make the right one.

[Who]

(1) I wouldn't consider Alexander an option. He has shown no capacity to be a rotation worthy player on any team. He's a Patrick O'Bryant type gamble.

(2) Posey has been playing very poorly this season. I wouldn't be willing to acquire him until he shows the capacity to get back to his best form. Should he do that, then, I'd prefer Posey over Nocioni mainly due to financial considerations. I also prefer Posey's game over Nocioni's too but I think Nocioni will age better ... that's why the finances are the main separating factor for me.

Nocioni -- four years $28 million
Posey -- three years $19 million

[Drucci]

(1) I wouldn't consider Alexander an option. He has shown no capacity to be a rotation worthy player on any team. He's a Patrick O'Bryant type gamble.

(2) Posey has been playing very poorly this season. I wouldn't be willing to acquire him until he shows the capacity to get back to his best form. Should he do that, then, I'd prefer Posey over Nocioni mainly due to financial considerations. I also prefer Posey's game over Nocioni's too but I think Nocioni will age better ... that's why the finances are the main separating factor for me.

Nocioni -- four years $28 million
Posey -- three years $19 million

Nocioni's four year is a team option so it makes this like :
Nocioni -- three years $20,5 million (+ fourth year 7,5 million with the Celtics deciding whether they keep him or not)
Posey -- three years $19 million

Would you reconsider your choice then?

[winsomme]

Just saw the hip problem with Nocioni but I think it's minor.

Anyway, I admit I would prefer to have Posey back... because his contract is as heavy as Nocioni's but we are sure that he will bring a lot to the table. Even though he is older than Nocioni, I still prefer Pose as a player - and a person - and, first and foremost, his defense. Posey knows our systems, we know he will fit in well if he comes back. Also, he would have a big motivation boost by leaving the Hornets (absolute chaos out there) for a championship team with his old buddies.

So, even though Nocioni sounds like the obvious choice because he is the most talented offensive guy, and the younger guy, I'd rather have Posey back. But I will be glad if we get Nocioni too, especially considering we would basically acquire him for useless players.

I trust Danny to see what his best choices are on the market, and make the right one.

I'm with you Drucci. I wouldn't be too disappointed with Nocioni. He has the right general mixture of skills and it's more important to fill this need than it is to satisfy my lingering desire to get Pose back on this team.

I am a little concerned with the hip problem because I think Noci did have nagging health problems last season as well that limited his availability.

I don't know, overall I just want a 6-8 SF type guy who can knock down shots and plays hard...So I just hope that spot gets filled.

[Who]

(1) I wouldn't consider Alexander an option. He has shown no capacity to be a rotation worthy player on any team. He's a Patrick O'Bryant type gamble.

(2) Posey has been playing very poorly this season. I wouldn't be willing to acquire him until he shows the capacity to get back to his best form. Should he do that, then, I'd prefer Posey over Nocioni mainly due to financial considerations. I also prefer Posey's game over Nocioni's too but I think Nocioni will age better ... that's why the finances are the main separating factor for me.

Nocioni -- four years $28 million
Posey -- three years $19 million

Nocioni's four year is a team option so it makes this like :
Nocioni -- three years $20,5 million (+ fourth year 7,5 million with the Celtics deciding whether they keep him or not)
Posey -- three years $19 million

Would you reconsider your choice then?

Oh sorry, my mistake, I thought it was a player option.

Then I'd consider it fairly even between the two. Posey, if he can regain his form of a year ago, is the better player currently -- more efficient offensively, stand-still shooter better fit alongside players who need the ball in their hands, plus can play better defense while Nocioni supplies better go-to scoring + comparable rebounding between the two -- but Nocioni has a much better chance of maintaining his performance level in the final two years of that contract. It's a push. I would have no favourite.

[winsomme]

(1) I wouldn't consider Alexander an option. He has shown no capacity to be a rotation worthy player on any team. He's a Patrick O'Bryant type gamble.

(2) Posey has been playing very poorly this season. I wouldn't be willing to acquire him until he shows the capacity to get back to his best form. Should he do that, then, I'd prefer Posey over Nocioni mainly due to financial considerations. I also prefer Posey's game over Nocioni's too but I think Nocioni will age better ... that's why the finances are the main separating factor for me.

Nocioni -- four years $28 million
Posey -- three years $19 million

1. The sample size on Alexander is a lot less than POB. I would consider Shelden a closer comparison in terms of gambling on a young than POB (and Shelden has been a nice surprise). I know SL is a crap shoot, but he really did look like he had made some adjustments to playing at different level than college ball. Depending on the price tag, I would be pretty interested in him because he could be a nice piece for the future too (although I think he becomes a FA at the end of the season...not sure if we would have any special claim on him).

2. The Hornets team is a train wreck. I don't think it's really fair to say that Pose is playing poorly. He's got no real role on a team in a total state of flux. I think Pose is best when he has  a stable clear role and that is what he would be coming to in Boston.

Anyway, I love the fact that DA is looking to fill the spot (whether it be Noci or not). I'm gald he is not just content to sit still with what we have....which is an incredibly talented team in its own right.

[Who]

2. The Hornets team is a train wreck. I don't think it's really fair to say that Pose is playing poorly. He's got no real role on a team in a total state of flux. I think Pose is best when he has  a stable clear role and that is what he would be coming to in Boston.

Posey is not playing defense, not rebounding, and not hitting shots. He's not dependent on others for his own defensive + rebounding contributions. His shooting could just be a cold streak.

It's way too early to say what the lasting effects here are -- a lock to improve but by how much? All the way back to where he was in 2008/09? Impossible to say -- but until Posey shows more ability I'd be unwilling to take on a contract of that size.

Edit: Sorry, clicked post by accident.

1. The sample size on Alexander is a lot less than POB. I would consider Shelden a closer comparison in terms of gambling on a young than POB (and Shelden has been a nice surprise). I know SL is a crap shoot, but he really did look like he had made some adjustments to playing at different level than college ball. Depending on the price tag, I would be pretty interested in him because he could be a nice piece for the future too (although I think he becomes a FA at the end of the season...not sure if we would have any special claim on him).

(1) Joe Alexander has shown no capacity to defend any position at even a serviceable level. Not in regular season games or in summer league.

(2) Joe Alexander is a poor jump shooter who cannot space the floor (16-18 feet range and not that effective with it). He is an inefficient scorer at SF (mostly post up turnaround J's) and a slightly efficient one as a PF (turn and face, attack with speed, gets to the line, versus slower PFs).

(3) Joe Alexander is a mediocre rebounder for a SF and a liability for a PF.

At both positions Joe Alexander gives up more defensively + rebounding than he creates offensively.

This is not to say that he can never be a serviceable, or good, NBA player. Just that he isn't one now. You take a flier on him and hope he develops into one in a year or two. Patrick O'Bryant isn't the best of examples because he never had enough talent/potential to succeed, whereas Alexander might, but it's a similar non-ability to contribute now sign for the future type of idea.

I'm all for acquiring Joe Alexander at a low cost. That looks like a good risk/reward idea. I just don't think you can ask him to be a rotation player this season.

[ssspence]

Ever since the decision to not re-sign Pose prior to last season, SF (with the ability to slide to PF for smallball) has been a need.

Nocioni fills the need. He can shoot, plays hard, and can slide to the 4 if needed.

Posey, however, is almost certainly also on the table for the struggling and salary overloaded Hornets. So, the question is whether Nocioni is a better fit than Pose.

Some will argue that Nocioni being a couple years younger will be a solid piece not only this year but the next two years of his contract as well. That's a fair point (although I expect Pose to play at a fairly consistent level over the next couple seasons). But the larger point for me is fit right now. Personally, Pose's defense puts him ahead of Nocioni as the better fit. Plus, he knows the systems that are in place here and is liked by teammates and fans.

The money is the same, so that is a push.

The other guy that is a total flyer is Joe Alexander. He would be a big question mark, but he has a skill set that could be a good fit. He played well in the summer league, so he could have made necessary physical and psychological adjustments coming off a disappointing season and be a nice young addition when he comes back from his hamstring injury. MIL has Illyasova and MBah ahead of him on their depth chart, so we might be able to get him pretty cheaply.

Final note, Nocioni is apparently dealing with a hip problem, so that could be a factor in any decision to trade for him....Not sure how bad the hip problem is...

Couple of points here:

1) Ilyasova is also a 4. Alexander is behind the DJ Jazzy Fresh Prince and Delfino basically. He was a lottery pick and had his option dropped. Trade for him if you like but he's not going to be a factor on the Cs in 2009-2010. I'd rather play Bill Walker.

2) Nocioni is really not a 3 anymore. He likes to play the wing on offense, but he struggles defending 3s of any quickness whatsoever. He's not capable of defending Lebron or VC or Iggy, etc. The only guys in the East I think he'd be useful for are Lewis and Luol Deng. Yes he's also been playing pro ball for a long time so his age is like deceiving in the same way pundits like to point out KG has alot of wear on the tires. He's got heart, but I'm not sure I'd pay him all that money to bring no increase in athleticism or durability to the wing.

[moiso]

Posey and Nocioni are pretty interchangable in terms of performance/position/salary.  Alexander is far more POB than Shelden Williams is.  Williams struggled but he knows how to play.  Alexander is an extreme project, and Skiles said he hasn't gotten more minutes because he's still clueless in terms of knowing the plays and rotations.  That sounds like POB.

[winsomme]

2. The Hornets team is a train wreck. I don't think it's really fair to say that Pose is playing poorly. He's got no real role on a team in a total state of flux. I think Pose is best when he has  a stable clear role and that is what he would be coming to in Boston.

Posey is not playing defense, not rebounding, and not hitting shots. He's not dependent on others for his own defensive + rebounding contributions. His shooting could just be a cold streak.

It's way too early to say what the lasting effects here are -- a lock to improve but by how much? All the way back to where he was in 2008/09? Impossible to say -- but until Posey shows more ability I'd be unwilling to take on a contract of that size.

fair enough. but maybe it's just lack of effort on an imploding team....

not the most encouraging explanation, but i still feel pretty confident in what we would be getting if we traded for Pose at this point. I think we would be essentially getting the same player that left here prior to last season.

don't know that for sure, but that's my sense anyway.

[moiso]

so far, Alexander = Gerald Green.  Good height, great athleticism, good outside shooting touch, no brain.

[winsomme]

Posey and Nocioni are pretty interchangable in terms of performance/position/salary.  Alexander is far more POB than Shelden Williams is.  Williams struggled but he knows how to play.  Alexander is an extreme project, and Skiles said he hasn't gotten more minutes because he's still clueless in terms of knowing the plays and rotations.  That sounds like POB.

Alexander isn't playing this year because he's injured. POB had a long record of not being able to step his game up in the pros.

Alexander came out of a solid program at WV and was a hard worker there. POB even had questions about his work ethic in college.

I think Shelden is fair comparison for Alexander in regard to a player who hasn't quite figured out how to contribute at the pro level.

I agree he would be a gamble (especially with the hamstring injury) but i still would be intrigued.

[winsomme]

so far, Alexander = Gerald Green.  Good height, great athleticism, good outside shooting touch, no brain.

really? I haven't seen that. I just think the sample size is too small to make that conclusion.

I never heard BBall IQ being called into question in college. Last year was a big disappointment, but I thought i saw a different player coming into this season.

[Who]

Shelden Williams had already proven himself to be (1) a very good rebounder (2) a good team defender + good man-to-man defender against certain types of players (slow PFs, or small slow C's) but struggled against others (perimeter PFs, athletic PFs, tall long C's).

Joe Alexander has shown no above average NBA skill.