Ray Allen

[papa shuttlesworth]

I remember reading an article a year or two ago about the idea of the abundance of SGs compared to big men.  It was probably Hollinger.  Anyway, it went over the drafts of the past X many years and identified the franchise shooting guards that have been available.  The jist of the article was that, despite how many SGs are available, most are crappy and there are actually much fewer franchise level pure SGs than people realize.

I think there are still even less quality big men, but the idea that a guy like Ray can be replaced easily without paying serious money is false.

(but I agree that Perk is a rare find and a keeper)

[Spilling Green Dye]

I say we keep Ray Allen.

I don't know the financial side that well, but somehow re-sign him after this year. He is a Class Act and needs to retire as a Celtic.

Don't forget he made the All-Star team recently and nearly won the MVP of it, lol.

Yes he has struggled a little this year (only two games), but Doc Rivers made an important point last season in response to a period when Ray wasn't shooting well----Doc stated that even when Ray is not shooting well, he is STILL a dangerous threat that can't EVER be left open.

Classic case: 2007-2008 game VS Bobcats in Charlotte..Ray was like 2 for 14, but hit that Dagger at the buzzer to win the game...."Ray Allen for the game--GOT IT!!! AT THE BUZZER"...lol.


And he keeps himself in Great shape.


In my opinion he is a top ten Shoot Guard for next three seasons.

The financial side is that you'd be signing a near 1-dimensional SG (Ray Allen) at the expense of getting help in areas the Celtics might need.  Personally I think they should do a trade with him.  

I love the guy, and agree that his attitude embodies many of the things that being a Celtic is, but why should he retire a Celtic?  Paul Pierce is the only person on the roster who the Celtics should overpay for his decline in order to ensure he retires a Celtic.  Ray Allen has spent 86% of his career NOT PLAYING FOR THE CELTICS, why should we overpay to keep him?    

The Celtics would be hurting their team if they keep milking Ray Allen down the road.  Let's focus on what he does on the court:

-Provide great 3point threat
-Moves to the best locations behind the 3-point arc to adequately space the floor and play
-Efficient shooter
-Poor ball handler
-Terrible leading a fast break
-Unable to consistently drive to the hoop anymore (check out old clips of him on the Sonics when he could)
-Subpar lateral movement on defense, which when combined with some of his other defensive shortcomings:
-Not a good defender.

My point is that in the upcoming years you'll essentially be getting an efficient and experiences SHOOTER.  That's great.  BUT, the Celtics can get the same qualities in a different player (who can probably play better D) at a cheaper price.  Every $ will count.  If you overspend on Ray by a few million a year because of his professionalism, experience, and he "should retire a Celtic", then there won't be money available for the role players.  This team w/o Glen Davis, Sheldon Williams, and Marquis is practically what you'd get.  Those three guys are CRUCIAL.  To me, it's too much to sacrifice.  

[BudweiserCeltic]

I say we keep Ray Allen.

I don't know the financial side that well, but somehow re-sign him after this year. He is a Class Act and needs to retire as a Celtic.

Don't forget he made the All-Star team recently and nearly won the MVP of it, lol.

Yes he has struggled a little this year (only two games), but Doc Rivers made an important point last season in response to a period when Ray wasn't shooting well----Doc stated that even when Ray is not shooting well, he is STILL a dangerous threat that can't EVER be left open.

Classic case: 2007-2008 game VS Bobcats in Charlotte..Ray was like 2 for 14, but hit that Dagger at the buzzer to win the game...."Ray Allen for the game--GOT IT!!! AT THE BUZZER"...lol.


And he keeps himself in Great shape.


In my opinion he is a top ten Shoot Guard for next three seasons.

The financial side is that you'd be signing a near 1-dimensional SG (Ray Allen) at the expense of getting help in areas the Celtics might need.  Personally I think they should do a trade with him.  

I love the guy, and agree that his attitude embodies many of the things that being a Celtic is, but why should he retire a Celtic?  Paul Pierce is the only person on the roster who the Celtics should overpay for his decline in order to ensure he retires a Celtic.  Ray Allen has spent 86% of his career NOT PLAYING FOR THE CELTICS, why should we overpay to keep him?    

The Celtics would be hurting their team if they keep milking Ray Allen down the road.  Let's focus on what he does on the court:

-Provide great 3point threat
-Moves to the best locations behind the 3-point arc to adequately space the floor and play
-Efficient shooter
-Poor ball handler
-Terrible leading a fast break
-Unable to consistently drive to the hoop anymore (check out old clips of him on the Sonics when he could)
-Subpar lateral movement on defense, which when combined with some of his other defensive shortcomings:
-Not a good defender.

My point is that in the upcoming years you'll essentially be getting an efficient and experiences SHOOTER.  That's great.  BUT, the Celtics can get the same qualities in a different player (who can probably play better D) at a cheaper price.  Every $ will count.  If you overspend on Ray by a few million a year because of his professionalism, experience, and he "should retire a Celtic", then there won't be money available for the role players.  This team w/o Glen Davis, Sheldon Williams, and Marquis is practically what you'd get.  Those three guys are CRUCIAL.  To me, it's too much to sacrifice.  

What you're forgetting here is that we're over the cap. Finding something nearly equal to what Ray provides will be very difficult, particularly if you're going to waste resources on this player that could've been spent on someone else... limited resources at that. Keeping Ray Allen prevents that to some extent.

Now if the right trade comes along, the sure pull the trigger... but going away from him for the sake of going away from him is not wise. We retain his bird rights and that's a very good chip to have in a possible sign and trade eventually if the opportunity arises.

[Chris]

OK, I am predicting it right now, either Perk or Rondo are used in a trade next summer to obtain a young SG who they view as Ray's replacement.  My money is on it being Perk.  And this site will explode with indignation.

Only if they cannot extend Perk at a reasonable salary. I think they'd try to do that before they trade him.

It's a lot easier to find a SG than a shot blocker.

That's the problem.  They will likely try to resign him next summer, but if he wants to get paid market value (he would likely get close to $8-10 million a year on the open market), I don't think the C's are going to pay it.  So if Perk does not want to take a hometown discount next summer, expect him to be shopped, so they can get what they can. 

[celts55]

I say we keep Ray Allen.

I don't know the financial side that well, but somehow re-sign him after this year. He is a Class Act and needs to retire as a Celtic.

Don't forget he made the All-Star team recently and nearly won the MVP of it, lol.

Yes he has struggled a little this year (only two games), but Doc Rivers made an important point last season in response to a period when Ray wasn't shooting well----Doc stated that even when Ray is not shooting well, he is STILL a dangerous threat that can't EVER be left open.

Classic case: 2007-2008 game VS Bobcats in Charlotte..Ray was like 2 for 14, but hit that Dagger at the buzzer to win the game...."Ray Allen for the game--GOT IT!!! AT THE BUZZER"...lol.


And he keeps himself in Great shape.


In my opinion he is a top ten Shoot Guard for next three seasons.

The financial side is that you'd be signing a near 1-dimensional SG (Ray Allen) at the expense of getting help in areas the Celtics might need.  Personally I think they should do a trade with him.  

I love the guy, and agree that his attitude embodies many of the things that being a Celtic is, but why should he retire a Celtic?  Paul Pierce is the only person on the roster who the Celtics should overpay for his decline in order to ensure he retires a Celtic.  Ray Allen has spent 86% of his career NOT PLAYING FOR THE CELTICS, why should we overpay to keep him?    

The Celtics would be hurting their team if they keep milking Ray Allen down the road.  Let's focus on what he does on the court:

-Provide great 3point threat
-Moves to the best locations behind the 3-point arc to adequately space the floor and play
-Efficient shooter
-Poor ball handler
-Terrible leading a fast break
-Unable to consistently drive to the hoop anymore (check out old clips of him on the Sonics when he could)
-Subpar lateral movement on defense, which when combined with some of his other defensive shortcomings:
-Not a good defender.

My point is that in the upcoming years you'll essentially be getting an efficient and experiences SHOOTER.  That's great.  BUT, the Celtics can get the same qualities in a different player (who can probably play better D) at a cheaper price.  Every $ will count.  If you overspend on Ray by a few million a year because of his professionalism, experience, and he "should retire a Celtic", then there won't be money available for the role players.  This team w/o Glen Davis, Sheldon Williams, and Marquis is practically what you'd get.  Those three guys are CRUCIAL.  To me, it's too much to sacrifice.  

I agree with pretty much everything you said except I'm not sure Ray is that efficient anymore. He's really struggled with his shot starting towards the end of last year, than into the playoff and now starting this season. From most of what I've heard and read, at his age this is not to be unexpected. As much as I think he's the kind of guy you want on your team, I could see him being replaced by a younger, cheaper player who can do what he does, plus more.

[ManUp]

Ray isn't an all-star anymore, but he's still a very good starter. If we're going to replace Ray I think it would have to be a younger or more significant talent than Captain Jack. At this point in Ray's career I'd say him and S.Jackson are a wash. Plus Jackson is as much of a SF as Pierce, and wouldn't fit in as well.

Ray is fine as our starter for now, and next year. My only issue with him is that he can get just as cold as he does hot. Last year he was our most inconsistent player in the play-offs, but he got a pass because of the Heroics. If fatigue is the issue we should get another backup wing so that we can keep his legs fresh during the season.

If you really bent on replacing Ray it would have to be with someone who can shoot similar percentages with more consistency, doesn't need the ball in his hands to be affective, and is able to create his own shot when needed. Good luck finding that guy cheap because it's not Jackson. The only two players who I think would fit this criteria are Michael Redd and Kevin Martin. Redd can barely stay healthy for 82 games, and the Kings aren't giving up Martin just yet.

[JSD]

To me it comes down to: Who would be the more effective starter next season Allen or Jackson? To me that answer is Jackson. He's younger, faster, better defensively and is close to equal offensively.

Jackson is no-where near as efficient an offensive player as Ray Allen is.  He also is overrated as a defender.
 

Allen has a slight advantage offensively.

In game stats based on the Regular Season of 2009

Ray Allen

Salary - $18,776,860
Age - 33
MPG - 36.4 X
PPG - 18.2
BLK - .2
STL - .9
AST - 2.8
REB - 3.5
FG% - .480 X
3PT - .409 X
FT% - .950 X

Stephen Jackson

Salary - $7,650,000 X
Age - 31   X
MPG - 39.6
PPG - 20.7 X
BLK - .5   X
STL - 1.5  X
AST - 6.5  X
REB - 5.1  X
FG% - .414
3PT - .338
FT% - .826

Jackson has proven he can be a great teammate on a championship team. Also, Jackson has low-mileage for his age and will be in his prime for the next 2 years. If the Celtics were able to block Cleveland and get him they'd maintain a huge advantage over the other teams in the east. Allowing this guy to go Cleveland is dangerous.

I'm not advocating trading Allen or saying that he's washed up. I do however think inserting Jackson as a starter and allowing Allen to come off the bench would be a solid idea for next season with both Danieles and House presumably gone.

[Change]

All of this so we can block Cavs from getting Stephen jackson. So what? That team is doomed. As long as they have Mike Brown as their coach, we having nothing to worry about. Mike finds ways to lose.

Ray is a perfect fit for this team. Also don't forget we still have House & Marquis. Whatever Ray is lacking House can provide, and whatever House is lacking Marquis can provide.

[footey]

All of this so we can block Cavs from getting Stephen jackson. So what? That team is doomed. As long as they have Mike Brown as their coach, we having nothing to worry about. Mike finds ways to lose.

Ray is a perfect fit for this team. Also don't forget we still have House & Marquis. Whatever Ray is lacking House can provide, and whatever House is lacking Marquis can provide.

You mean 2009 Coach of the Year Mike Brown?

[JSD]

He is not young.  He is 31. 


He is not fast.  He spent more time playing PF last year then SG.  (Most of his time is at SF)


If the Celtics want to replace Ray, the player must either be better (Jackson is not) or much younger with the potential to match Ray.  (And I mean a player that can earn minutes now, but still has plenty of upside)

He's younger than Ray... Umm... so there is a correlation now between speed and position   He looks faster to me...

As mentioned before, Jackson would assume the 3 spot and move Paul back to the 2.

Also, what you posed as Ray's replacement is unrealistic because of our cap and draft position. Jackson is the best realistic option.

So you are saying there us no way to add a SG that is starting calibur to the Celtics next year?

MLE
Sign and trade (using Ray for example)

What MLE SG is on par with the talent of Jackson? What SG on the horizon fits your description?

Sign and trade with Allen? So you're telling me another team is going to send a top-prospect or young starting SG next off-season for a 34 year old Ray Allen? I don't buy it... I can't even think of the last time an S&T took place in the NBA. Can someone refresh my memory?

While your scenarios are possible they are unlikely. To get a stud SG that would fit in with a competitive team like the C's, we would need to get lucky through the draft (lottery) or have cap room to sign one via FA. We don't have either.  Jackson is a solid alternative.

[Fafnir]

To me it comes down to: Who would be the more effective starter next season Allen or Jackson? To me that answer is Jackson. He's younger, faster, better defensively and is close to equal offensively.

Jackson is no-where near as efficient an offensive player as Ray Allen is.  He also is overrated as a defender.
 

Allen has a slight advantage offensively.

In game stats based on the Regular Season of 2009

Ray Allen

Salary - $18,776,860
Age - 33
MPG - 36.4 X
PPG - 18.2
BLK - .2
STL - .9
AST - 2.8
REB - 3.5
FG% - .480 X
3PT - .409 X
FT% - .950 X

Stephen Jackson

Salary - $7,650,000 X
Age - 31   X
MPG - 39.6
PPG - 20.7 X
BLK - .5   X
STL - 1.5  X
AST - 6.5  X
REB - 5.1  X
FG% - .414
3PT - .338
FT% - .826

Slight advantage? Ray Allen has a huge advantage when it comes to efficiency.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tiny.cgi?id=qLF6F

Take a look:

        Ray       Jackson
eFG%    .575        .466
TS%     .624        .530
TOV%    10.4        16.6

Not to mention that the only reason Jackson's scoring is higher than Ray's is that he played a lot more minutes and jacked up a lot more shots.

[wdleehi]

To me it comes down to: Who would be the more effective starter next season Allen or Jackson? To me that answer is Jackson. He's younger, faster, better defensively and is close to equal offensively.

Jackson is no-where near as efficient an offensive player as Ray Allen is.  He also is overrated as a defender.
 

Allen has a slight advantage offensively.

In game stats based on the Regular Season of 2009

Ray Allen

Salary - $18,776,860
Age - 33
MPG - 36.4 X
PPG - 18.2
BLK - .2
STL - .9
AST - 2.8
REB - 3.5
FG% - .480 X
3PT - .409 X
FT% - .950 X

Stephen Jackson

Salary - $7,650,000 X
Age - 31   X
MPG - 39.6
PPG - 20.7 X
BLK - .5   X
STL - 1.5  X
AST - 6.5  X
REB - 5.1  X
FG% - .414
3PT - .338
FT% - .826

Jackson has proven he can be a great teammate on a championship team. Also, Jackson has low-mileage for his age and will be in his prime for the next 2 years. If the Celtics were able to block Cleveland and get him they'd maintain a huge advantage over the other teams in the east. Allowing this guy to go Cleveland is dangerous.

I'm not advocating trading Allen or saying that he's washed up. I do however think inserting Jackson as a starter and allowing Allen to come off the bench would be a solid idea for next season with both Danieles and House presumably gone.

So he is a stat hanger. 

What kind of numbers does he put up when he was playing on real contenders?  Was he anything more then a 4th or 5th option?

I rather just keep Ray.  Even if he no longer is a go to guy every play, he still stretches the field better then any one.  He is still the starting SG of one of the top, if not the top, defenses in the NBA. 

I am missing the need to replace him right now.

[wdleehi]

OK, I am predicting it right now, either Perk or Rondo are used in a trade next summer to obtain a young SG who they view as Ray's replacement.  My money is on it being Perk.  And this site will explode with indignation.

Only if they cannot extend Perk at a reasonable salary. I think they'd try to do that before they trade him.

It's a lot easier to find a SG than a shot blocker.

That's the problem.  They will likely try to resign him next summer, but if he wants to get paid market value (he would likely get close to $8-10 million a year on the open market), I don't think the C's are going to pay it.  So if Perk does not want to take a hometown discount next summer, expect him to be shopped, so they can get what they can. 

I disagree with this.


It is much harder to find a good starting C then a good starting SG. 

As long as Pierce and KG are here, there is not a need for a top payed SG.

I think the Celtics can keep Perk and Rondo and reasonable contracts and add a star offensive player and a good second banana. 


And with NBA economy the way it is, teams have less extra money to throw around.  They will use it to make the bif splash.  The kind of splash that sells tickets.

As much as I love Perk, he does no sell NBA tickets.

[Spilling Green Dye]

Ray isn't an all-star anymore, but he's still a very good starter. If we're going to replace Ray I think it would have to be a younger or more significant talent than Captain Jack. At this point in Ray's career I'd say him and S.Jackson are a wash. Plus Jackson is as much of a SF as Pierce, and wouldn't fit in as well.

Ray is fine as our starter for now, and next year. My only issue with him is that he can get just as cold as he does hot. Last year he was our most inconsistent player in the play-offs, but he got a pass because of the Heroics. If fatigue is the issue we should get another backup wing so that we can keep his legs fresh during the season.

If you really bent on replacing Ray it would have to be with someone who can shoot similar percentages with more consistency, doesn't need the ball in his hands to be affective, and is able to create his own shot when needed. Good luck finding that guy cheap because it's not Jackson. The only two players who I think would fit this criteria are Michael Redd and Kevin Martin. Redd can barely stay healthy for 82 games, and the Kings aren't giving up Martin just yet.

Why is one of your replacement player criteria "is able to create his own shot."  Ray Allen hardly does this, but he does place himself well on the floor.  To me a good replacement player would be a good 3-point shooter who can defend well.  The offensive system is what creates shots for that position, which is why Ray benefits.

[Fafnir]

Ray isn't an all-star anymore, but he's still a very good starter. If we're going to replace Ray I think it would have to be a younger or more significant talent than Captain Jack. At this point in Ray's career I'd say him and S.Jackson are a wash. Plus Jackson is as much of a SF as Pierce, and wouldn't fit in as well.

Ray is fine as our starter for now, and next year. My only issue with him is that he can get just as cold as he does hot. Last year he was our most inconsistent player in the play-offs, but he got a pass because of the Heroics. If fatigue is the issue we should get another backup wing so that we can keep his legs fresh during the season.

If you really bent on replacing Ray it would have to be with someone who can shoot similar percentages with more consistency, doesn't need the ball in his hands to be affective, and is able to create his own shot when needed. Good luck finding that guy cheap because it's not Jackson. The only two players who I think would fit this criteria are Michael Redd and Kevin Martin. Redd can barely stay healthy for 82 games, and the Kings aren't giving up Martin just yet.

Why is one of your replacement player criteria "is able to create his own shot."  Ray Allen hardly does this, but he does place himself well on the floor.  To me a good replacement player would be a good 3-point shooter who can defend well.  The offensive system is what creates shots for that position, which is why Ray benefits.

I think its harder to find shooters than can shoot off the catch and off screens as well than you think.

Ray is the best in the league at it.