If Rondo is our top scorer, we're in trouble

[twinbree]

PS is it too obvious I just figured out how to link within text? 

LOL not at all. TP for the subtlety 
And no we're not in trouble when Rondo is the top scorer. It's usually benefitted the team in the past.

[Rondo_is_better]

What if Rondo is our "top scorer" with 55 points, 12 rebounds, and 11 assists?

I feel like we might win that game.

[Fan from VT]

I guess the argument was "shot attempts", rather than scoring.  In regular season games where Rondo had 12 or more shot attempts, the team went 20-2 (losing only to the Bulls and Lakers).

If anything, that's some evidence that when Rondo isn't offensively aggressive, our team suffers a little.

Good point, and I'd agree just from observation. Remember also that our team's main offensive problem is completing possession (i.e. avoiding turnovers), and there are many times Rondo passes up an above average shot attempt to make a pass that results in a direct turnover or a Perk/Davis fumble turnover. So perhaps high shot attempts is also related to fewer turnovers and thus better overall offense?

[GKC]

Just proving my point that Rondo only scores when he knows when to pick his spots or gets hot,

Rondo averages 50.5% FG
When taking 12+ shots, Rondo averages 57.6% FG, with a 58.2% cumulative FG% (ie. Total Made / Total attempts, where as the 57.6% is simply the averages of his FG% through the 22 12+ shot attempt games)

[Rondo_is_better]

I guess the argument was "shot attempts", rather than scoring.  In regular season games where Rondo had 12 or more shot attempts, the team went 20-2 (losing only to the Bulls and Lakers).

If anything, that's some evidence that when Rondo isn't offensively aggressive, our team suffers a little.

Wow. The thread should have stopped with this post, so nevermind. This is complete, unadulterated ownage of the Rondo shouldn't shoot/score argument.

[dark_lord]

Said it once and I'll say it twice, if at the end of the night Rondo has taken the most shots on the team, you can go ahead and chalk up the L.

lol....another bogus situation to be critical of.  its preseason and currently rondo leads the team in minutes played.  do u honestly think he will be our leading scorer?  if you do feel that way, you can go ahead and chalk up the FAIL.

[GKC]

In conclusion

In 08-09:
When Rondo is our top scorer, we are 8-0
When Rondo takes 12+ shots, we are 20-2
When Rondo takes 12+ shots, he shoots over 57%.

---

We done here?

[dark_lord]

In conclusion

In 08-09:
When Rondo is our top scorer, we are 8-0
When Rondo takes 12+ shots, we are 20-2
When Rondo takes 12+ shots, he shoots over 57%.

---

We done here?

lol....he failed on multiple levels.  lock it up 

good stats

[Birdbrain]

Agreed if Rondo is our top scorer the C's will be in trouble.  I have a feeling that won't be major concern unless half the team retires between now and the beginning of the season.

[Vermont Green]

OK, so the original post has been thoroughly shot down but I think there is a deeper point.  Last year, opposing defenses basically backed off Rondo and dared him to shoot.  There were some games where he was able to hit a few outside shots to go along with all his penetration points.  The thing was that last year, teams stayed with the game plan of letting Rondo shoot and he was able to get his points.  Basically they were daring Rondo to beat them so when he could, we won.

The real value to the team may come when teams have to respect Rondo as part of the main game plan.  If teams continue to "dare" Rondo and he starts to consistently respond, then everything changes.  No more sagging off like Kobe did in the playoffs in 2008 and we are going to be a very tough team to beat.  I think Rondo is going to have to prove it for a long time before teams change the game plan so it is a great opportunity for him.  The problem for other teams is what is the alternative making Rondo beat you, maybe make Ray Allen beat you?

[MrTripleDouble10]

OK, so the original post has been thoroughly shot down but I think there is a deeper point.  Last year, opposing defenses basically backed off Rondo and dared him to shoot.  There were some games where he was able to hit a few outside shots to go along with all his penetration points.  The thing was that last year, teams stayed with the game plan of letting Rondo shoot and he was able to get his points.  Basically they were daring Rondo to beat them so when he could, we won.

The real value to the team may come when teams have to respect Rondo as part of the main game plan.  If teams continue to "dare" Rondo and he starts to consistently respond, then everything changes.  No more sagging off like Kobe did in the playoffs in 2008 and we are going to be a very tough team to beat.  I think Rondo is going to have to prove it for a long time before teams change the game plan so it is a great opportunity for him.  The problem for other teams is what is the alternative making Rondo beat you, maybe make Ray Allen beat you?

I love this arguemnt.  Ok so what if teams also decide to basically attack Ray Allen on the defensive end?  Meaning, work that matchup on most offensive possessions?  My guess is that people will say "Oh well that's not Ray's fault.  That's Rondo's fault for not hedging/showing effectively or letting his guy get by him."

Any way you slice it, Rondo is apparently the key weakness on this team.  I think GKC ended this absurd topic with his evidence.

[GKC]

OK, so the original post has been thoroughly shot down but I think there is a deeper point.  Last year, opposing defenses basically backed off Rondo and dared him to shoot.  There were some games where he was able to hit a few outside shots to go along with all his penetration points.  The thing was that last year, teams stayed with the game plan of letting Rondo shoot and he was able to get his points.  Basically they were daring Rondo to beat them so when he could, we won.

The real value to the team may come when teams have to respect Rondo as part of the main game plan.  If teams continue to "dare" Rondo and he starts to consistently respond, then everything changes.  No more sagging off like Kobe did in the playoffs in 2008 and we are going to be a very tough team to beat.  I think Rondo is going to have to prove it for a long time before teams change the game plan so it is a great opportunity for him.  The problem for other teams is what is the alternative making Rondo beat you, maybe make Ray Allen beat you?

But when Rondo scores against those teams, those aren't usually jump shots, those are usually drives (hence the high FG%). You only sag off him when you're on the outside because he won't take a 3 or a long 2. Hell, if they stop sagging off him the better. Allows for better penetration, more defensive switching, better spacing, better passing.

I think the big 3 are consistent enough, that if Rondo does score a lot, that's more points on the board. Especially at his efficiency, that's a good thing.

[Vermont Green]

Any way you slice it, Rondo is apparently the key weakness on this team.  I think GKC ended this absurd topic with his evidence.

My post was not a bash on Rondo.  I think it is a pretty obvious fact that opposing teams do not respect his outside shot or even mid-range shot.  They don't respect for good reason too, he has not established that he can make it.  In spite of this weakness, Rondo has managed to more than make up for it with his ability to drive, and generally wreak havoc.

In terms of defense, yes, one bad defender out of 5 can make the other 4 look worse, that is why team defense is so important.

The real point here is that if Rondo can establish an outside shot and make the opposing defenses adjust their game plans, our team is going to be way more difficult to stop.  We are going to be pretty hard to stop anyway but Rondo's poor outside shooting gives opponents an important weakness to exploit.

[Roy Hobbs]

OK, so the original post has been thoroughly shot down but I think there is a deeper point.  Last year, opposing defenses basically backed off Rondo and dared him to shoot.  There were some games where he was able to hit a few outside shots to go along with all his penetration points.  The thing was that last year, teams stayed with the game plan of letting Rondo shoot and he was able to get his points.  Basically they were daring Rondo to beat them so when he could, we won.

The real value to the team may come when teams have to respect Rondo as part of the main game plan.  If teams continue to "dare" Rondo and he starts to consistently respond, then everything changes.  No more sagging off like Kobe did in the playoffs in 2008 and we are going to be a very tough team to beat.  I think Rondo is going to have to prove it for a long time before teams change the game plan so it is a great opportunity for him.  The problem for other teams is what is the alternative making Rondo beat you, maybe make Ray Allen beat you?

I love this arguemnt.  Ok so what if teams also decide to basically attack Ray Allen on the defensive end?  Meaning, work that matchup on most offensive possessions?  My guess is that people will say "Oh well that's not Ray's fault.  That's Rondo's fault for not hedging/showing effectively or letting his guy get by him."

Any way you slice it, Rondo is apparently the key weakness on this team.  I think GKC ended this absurd topic with his evidence.

I don't think there's anything absurd about arguing that the team would be better, and the Celtics would be harder to defend, if Rondo had a better jump shot.  I mean, it's common sense; why jump down VG's throat for bringing it up?

Of course, Rondo isn't the only player who could improve his game, but as a point guard Rondo is going to have the ball in his hands more than anyone.  The more opposing offenses have to worry about a variety of weapons he has, the more it opens up things for everyone else.

Rondo's offensive game has two fairly signficant weaknesses:  jump shooting and free throw shooting.  The better he gets at those two areas, the better he'll be, period.

[MrTripleDouble10]

OK, so the original post has been thoroughly shot down but I think there is a deeper point.  Last year, opposing defenses basically backed off Rondo and dared him to shoot.  There were some games where he was able to hit a few outside shots to go along with all his penetration points.  The thing was that last year, teams stayed with the game plan of letting Rondo shoot and he was able to get his points.  Basically they were daring Rondo to beat them so when he could, we won.

The real value to the team may come when teams have to respect Rondo as part of the main game plan.  If teams continue to "dare" Rondo and he starts to consistently respond, then everything changes.  No more sagging off like Kobe did in the playoffs in 2008 and we are going to be a very tough team to beat.  I think Rondo is going to have to prove it for a long time before teams change the game plan so it is a great opportunity for him.  The problem for other teams is what is the alternative making Rondo beat you, maybe make Ray Allen beat you?

I love this arguemnt.  Ok so what if teams also decide to basically attack Ray Allen on the defensive end?  Meaning, work that matchup on most offensive possessions?  My guess is that people will say "Oh well that's not Ray's fault.  That's Rondo's fault for not hedging/showing effectively or letting his guy get by him."

Any way you slice it, Rondo is apparently the key weakness on this team.  I think GKC ended this absurd topic with his evidence.

I don't think there's anything absurd about arguing that the team would be better, and the Celtics would be harder to defend, if Rondo had a better jump shot.  I mean, it's common sense; why jump down VG's throat for bringing it up?

Of course, Rondo isn't the only player who could improve his game, but as a point guard Rondo is going to have the ball in his hands more than anyone.  The more opposing offenses have to worry about a variety of weapons he has, the more it opens up things for everyone else.

Rondo's offensive game has two fairly signficant weaknesses:  jump shooting and free throw shooting.  The better he gets at those two areas, the better he'll be, period.

Agreed 100%.  Certainly not jumping down anyone's throat.  My issue is when people overreact to one variable (Rondo just happened to lead the team in scoring for one game) in a random PRE-SEASON game.  Anyone is free to post/question/debate/criticize any player they want.  That's what being a member of a blgo is all about.

I just think it's absurd to overreact so easily, and yes a post that's entitled "If Rondo is our top scorer, we're in trouble" is vastly overreacting.  GKC effectively pointed this out with a better argument.

Again, your post is completely logical and the examination of any and all factors that would make this team better are always a valuable contribution.  I just think it was an overreaction and I don't see anything wrong with saying that.