Same old Doc

[HomeRunBaker]

Finally, again, who cares about Lester Hudson?  What's the best case scenario, he turns into a reliable bench player in a couple years?  Great.  We don't need to be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a bench player and has a better chance of being out of the league in three years. 

Yeah, who cared about Big Baby in 2007-2008?  2nd round pick coming onto a stacked championship caliber team w/4 bigs ahead of him.  Couldn't jump, played short, couldn't defend.  He'll never play! Big Baby, big deal!  Ha!  Why be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a reliable bench player in 3 years?  He's so fat, he might eat his way out of the league in 3 years!

Seriously, you're so short-sighted you've mistaken your bed for the bathroom on this one.

Hudson's the most NBA-ready rookie we've had since Baby.  He can flat-out score, create his shot, shoot from range, and finish at the rim with either hand.  He's very quick in transition, and has quick hands and feet on defense.  He can dribble well enough to bring the ball up against decent pressure.  He doesn't rattle; he competes.  And he has enough sense to pass the ball to an open teammate.  Most importantly, he has the inner confidence to play like he belongs, unlike almost any other rookie point guard you'll find, especially in contrast to guys like Pruitt and Giddens.

Hudson projects as House's replacement, as early as next season.  You're completely underselling both his potential as a player, and the team's need for a player like him, not to mention the fact that his older-than-average rookie age actually will help him contribute faster than the average rookie.  Hudson is a 25 year old MAN who can score at the NBA level and plays a position of need.  Dismiss his impact at your own peril.

Of course, he's trying to learn a whole new position (point guard), but with some seasoning in the D-League, he's going to be a player.  That's eminently clear.  His ability to run more than a few plays is in question right now--but once he gets the playbook under his thumb, and learns some tricks of the point guard trade, watch out. 

You are exactly right.....who does care about Big Baby?  Noboby offered him a FA deal last summer so he ended up back here in a fringe role off the bench where he is easily replaceable.  You don't care about developing players who are easily replaceable because if they don't develop you can find these guys anywhere on the cheap.  

I like Hudson but he has no role on this team with Daniels and House ahead of him off the bench in the backcourt and when Tony Allen returns he will have even less opportunity. I agree that Hudson can replace House as soon as next year (although both the Celtics and House would be foolish to part ways) but what does that have to do with preparing for THIS season?  

[xmuscularghandix]

Finally, again, who cares about Lester Hudson?  What's the best case scenario, he turns into a reliable bench player in a couple years?  Great.  We don't need to be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a bench player and has a better chance of being out of the league in three years. 

Yeah, who cared about Big Baby in 2007-2008?  2nd round pick coming onto a stacked championship caliber team w/4 bigs ahead of him.  Couldn't jump, played short, couldn't defend.  He'll never play! Big Baby, big deal!  Ha!  Why be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a reliable bench player in 3 years?  He's so fat, he might eat his way out of the league in 3 years!

Seriously, you're so short-sighted you've mistaken your bed for the bathroom on this one.

Hudson's the most NBA-ready rookie we've had since Baby.  He can flat-out score, create his shot, shoot from range, and finish at the rim with either hand.  He's very quick in transition, and has quick hands and feet on defense.  He can dribble well enough to bring the ball up against decent pressure.  He doesn't rattle; he competes.  And he has enough sense to pass the ball to an open teammate.  Most importantly, he has the inner confidence to play like he belongs, unlike almost any other rookie point guard you'll find, especially in contrast to guys like Pruitt and Giddens.

Hudson projects as House's replacement, as early as next season.  You're completely underselling both his potential as a player, and the team's need for a player like him, not to mention the fact that his older-than-average rookie age actually will help him contribute faster than the average rookie.  Hudson is a 25 year old MAN who can score at the NBA level and plays a position of need.  Dismiss his impact at your own peril.

Of course, he's trying to learn a whole new position (point guard), but with some seasoning in the D-League, he's going to be a player.  That's eminently clear.  His ability to run more than a few plays is in question right now--but once he gets the playbook under his thumb, and learns some tricks of the point guard trade, watch out. 

You are exactly right.....who does care about Big Baby?  Noboby offered him a FA deal last summer so he ended up back here in a fringe role off the bench where he is easily replaceable.  You don't care about developing players who are easily replaceable because if they don't develop you can find these guys anywhere on the cheap.  

I like Hudson but he has no role on this team with Daniels and House ahead of him off the bench in the backcourt and when Tony Allen returns he will have even less opportunity. I agree that Hudson can replace House as soon as next year (although both the Celtics and House would be foolish to part ways) but what does that have to do with preparing for THIS season?  

First of all Lester is the ONLY rookie i've seen that has gotten praise by Doc and the Big 3 without even being asked about him.

Lester a better on ball defender than half of this team, and he can score just as well as anybody thats not part of the Big 3. He also has shown confidence on the court and the ability to run the offense.

Hudson will most likely only play garbage minutes (which could be alot of minutes with the quality of our bench). BUT the fact that Rondo has said that he's extremely impressed with Lesters defense.

Larry Bird has been quoted as saying that what made the 86-87 team so good was the competition at practice between the starters and the 2nd unit. Hudson won't be in the DLeague becuase he holds this value to the team.

ANOTHER point in Lesters favor is that the 2nd unit is almost like its own group that has meshed extremely well. What happens if Rondo gets hurt? If you start House that screws up the compatability with your backups, now both units are off. If you start Hudson instead you have a few kinks in the starters but the 2nd unit will still flow smooth.

In conclusion. Lester is better than you think he is, you just can't find guys like him everywhere. The reason he dropped so low is becuase teams didn't know if he could mentally grasp an NBA offense, i think he's shown that he can. 

PS. "who cares about Baby?" Do you own a TV or do you just watch box scores on celtics.com?

[bucknersrevenge]

This thread I think may have just rolled off the deep end. I'm not sure what Hudson has to do with the broad sweeping(and might I add incorrect) generalization at the beginning of the thread. And don't get me wrong I've been impressed with Lester's poise. He may turn out to be a player worth keeping. At pick 58, anything positive Hudson gives you is gravy. That said for there to be this much debate over a guy not projected to be a major contributor is just downright ridiculous.

In any case, I don't see how anyone can be anything but incredibly pleased with how this preseason has gone. Doc has had time to incorporate chemistry with the new guys find way to get the most out of their game, blend them seamlessly in with the Big 3. He's experimented. Found things that work and found stuff that doesn't. Kept the defensive mindset, Got KG slowly but surely back up to speed while not over-exerting the big 3. Gave the backups minutes additional minutes to get going. And the results pretty much have been nothing short of superb. This team is gonna hit the ground flying I believe.

[HomeRunBaker]

Finally, again, who cares about Lester Hudson?  What's the best case scenario, he turns into a reliable bench player in a couple years?  Great.  We don't need to be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a bench player and has a better chance of being out of the league in three years. 

Yeah, who cared about Big Baby in 2007-2008?  2nd round pick coming onto a stacked championship caliber team w/4 bigs ahead of him.  Couldn't jump, played short, couldn't defend.  He'll never play! Big Baby, big deal!  Ha!  Why be overly eager about developing someone whose upside is to be a reliable bench player in 3 years?  He's so fat, he might eat his way out of the league in 3 years!

Seriously, you're so short-sighted you've mistaken your bed for the bathroom on this one.

Hudson's the most NBA-ready rookie we've had since Baby.  He can flat-out score, create his shot, shoot from range, and finish at the rim with either hand.  He's very quick in transition, and has quick hands and feet on defense.  He can dribble well enough to bring the ball up against decent pressure.  He doesn't rattle; he competes.  And he has enough sense to pass the ball to an open teammate.  Most importantly, he has the inner confidence to play like he belongs, unlike almost any other rookie point guard you'll find, especially in contrast to guys like Pruitt and Giddens.

Hudson projects as House's replacement, as early as next season.  You're completely underselling both his potential as a player, and the team's need for a player like him, not to mention the fact that his older-than-average rookie age actually will help him contribute faster than the average rookie.  Hudson is a 25 year old MAN who can score at the NBA level and plays a position of need.  Dismiss his impact at your own peril.

Of course, he's trying to learn a whole new position (point guard), but with some seasoning in the D-League, he's going to be a player.  That's eminently clear.  His ability to run more than a few plays is in question right now--but once he gets the playbook under his thumb, and learns some tricks of the point guard trade, watch out. 

You are exactly right.....who does care about Big Baby?  Noboby offered him a FA deal last summer so he ended up back here in a fringe role off the bench where he is easily replaceable.  You don't care about developing players who are easily replaceable because if they don't develop you can find these guys anywhere on the cheap.  

I like Hudson but he has no role on this team with Daniels and House ahead of him off the bench in the backcourt and when Tony Allen returns he will have even less opportunity. I agree that Hudson can replace House as soon as next year (although both the Celtics and House would be foolish to part ways) but what does that have to do with preparing for THIS season?  

First of all Lester is the ONLY rookie i've seen that has gotten praise by Doc and the Big 3 without even being asked about him.

Lester a better on ball defender than half of this team, and he can score just as well as anybody thats not part of the Big 3. He also has shown confidence on the court and the ability to run the offense.

Hudson will most likely only play garbage minutes (which could be alot of minutes with the quality of our bench). BUT the fact that Rondo has said that he's extremely impressed with Lesters defense.

Larry Bird has been quoted as saying that what made the 86-87 team so good was the competition at practice between the starters and the 2nd unit. Hudson won't be in the DLeague becuase he holds this value to the team.

ANOTHER point in Lesters favor is that the 2nd unit is almost like its own group that has meshed extremely well. What happens if Rondo gets hurt? If you start House that screws up the compatability with your backups, now both units are off. If you start Hudson instead you have a few kinks in the starters but the 2nd unit will still flow smooth.

In conclusion. Lester is better than you think he is, you just can't find guys like him everywhere. The reason he dropped so low is becuase teams didn't know if he could mentally grasp an NBA offense, i think he's shown that he can. 

PS. "who cares about Baby?" Do you own a TV or do you just watch box scores on celtics.com?

Baby will have little more than zero influence in the success of the Boston Celtics this year (other teams agreed since he wasn't offered a contract by any of the other 29 teams) as our 9th man.  How many 9th men in this league are not easily replaceable in their teams lineup?  Baby is no different.

[Chris]

Baby will have little more than zero influence in the success of the Boston Celtics this year (other teams agreed since he wasn't offered a contract by any of the other 29 teams) as our 9th man.  How many 9th men in this league are not easily replaceable in their teams lineup?  Baby is no different.

I think he will have little influence on the playoffs, but he likely will play a role in the regular season.  There will almost certainly be injuries at some point, and to have a player of his caliber as your 4th big man is a luxury that could save the C's a couple of games, which could be the difference in home court.

[nickagneta]

Personally, I think it's kinda ridiculous to be criticizing the possible effects the 9th player on a team with great depth might have after going through last season and seeing exactly how important having great depth can be for a team.

[AlCelticfan]

It's a discussion board.  That's what we do.

[nickagneta]

It's a discussion board.  That's what we do.

Thanks for letting me know that, I'm new here and didn't realize what people here do.

[CoachCowens]

To add to my previous point, has there been any young player who he's missed the boat on? That is, a player who rode his bench and then went to show something special elsewhere?  Banks, Telfair, Gerald, Reed, Pruitt, Hunter  -- ahhh, no -- Rivers has not been wrong about guys who struggled to gain (or hold onto) court time here.   

Al Jefferson and Rajon Rondo rode the bench in their first seasons when clearly they were better than the starters.

[Roy Hobbs]

To add to my previous point, has there been any young player who he's missed the boat on? That is, a player who rode his bench and then went to show something special elsewhere?  Banks, Telfair, Gerald, Reed, Pruitt, Hunter  -- ahhh, no -- Rivers has not been wrong about guys who struggled to gain (or hold onto) court time here.   

Al Jefferson and Rajon Rondo rode the bench in their first seasons when clearly they were better than the starters.

It also took Doc a long time to give Perk and Gomes playing time.  Gomes only got time due to injuries, and Perk seemed to ride the pine well after he'd earned time.

I don't think Doc is a great coach for a young team; he's too inconsistent with his rotations, among other things.  However, I think Doc's a pretty good coach for a veteran team, and on such teams he has put his young guys in a position to succeed (i.e., Rondo, Powe and BBD).

Basically, Doc wants to win.  He'll do whatever he has to to win games.  He's not, however, the type of coach you want if your goal is to lose games and develop young guys, in my opinion.  His instincts won't permit him to sacrifice the short term for the long term.

[nickagneta]

To add to my previous point, has there been any young player who he's missed the boat on? That is, a player who rode his bench and then went to show something special elsewhere?  Banks, Telfair, Gerald, Reed, Pruitt, Hunter  -- ahhh, no -- Rivers has not been wrong about guys who struggled to gain (or hold onto) court time here.   

Al Jefferson and Rajon Rondo rode the bench in their first seasons when clearly they were better than the starters.

It also took Doc a long time to give Perk and Gomes playing time.  Gomes only got time due to injuries, and Perk seemed to ride the pine well after he'd earned time.

I don't think Doc is a great coach for a young team; he's too inconsistent with his rotations, among other things.  However, I think Doc's a pretty good coach for a veteran team, and on such teams he has put his young guys in a position to succeed (i.e., Rondo, Powe and BBD).

Basically, Doc wants to win.  He'll do whatever he has to to win games.  He's not, however, the type of coach you want if your goal is to lose games and develop young guys, in my opinion.  His instincts won't permit him to sacrifice the short term for the long term.

I can see that Roy but missing in your criticisms is that Perk was horribly out of shape his first 2-3 years in the league and couldn't play long stretches without being badly outplayed after a couple minutes. Gomes got time due to injuries but let's not forget why he was sitting on the pine. he was horrible as a defender and as perfect a tweener as there was in the league. Was Doc supposed to play Perk, Al and Gomes in the 3, 4, and 5 spots while Pierce, LeFrentz and Wally rode pine?

Sat what you want about Doc's makeup of having to win, which by the way I agree 100% with, but Neurotic Guy is right about Doc's track record. I for one think Doc has an excellent handle on how to bring guys along at the right speed and think the Celtic fandom here at CB simply were over smitten with some of the young guys years ago and didn't see that the best thing for the player and the team was to learn the RIGHT way to play as opposed to any way to play.

[CoachCowens]

To add to my previous point, has there been any young player who he's missed the boat on? That is, a player who rode his bench and then went to show something special elsewhere?  Banks, Telfair, Gerald, Reed, Pruitt, Hunter  -- ahhh, no -- Rivers has not been wrong about guys who struggled to gain (or hold onto) court time here.   

Al Jefferson and Rajon Rondo rode the bench in their first seasons when clearly they were better than the starters.

It also took Doc a long time to give Perk and Gomes playing time.  Gomes only got time due to injuries, and Perk seemed to ride the pine well after he'd earned time.

I don't think Doc is a great coach for a young team; he's too inconsistent with his rotations, among other things.  However, I think Doc's a pretty good coach for a veteran team, and on such teams he has put his young guys in a position to succeed (i.e., Rondo, Powe and BBD).

Basically, Doc wants to win.  He'll do whatever he has to to win games.  He's not, however, the type of coach you want if your goal is to lose games and develop young guys, in my opinion.  His instincts won't permit him to sacrifice the short term for the long term.

I can see that Roy but missing in your criticisms is that Perk was horribly out of shape his first 2-3 years in the league and couldn't play long stretches without being badly outplayed after a couple minutes. Gomes got time due to injuries but let's not forget why he was sitting on the pine. he was horrible as a defender and as perfect a tweener as there was in the league. Was Doc supposed to play Perk, Al and Gomes in the 3, 4, and 5 spots while Pierce, LeFrentz and Wally rode pine?

Sat what you want about Doc's makeup of having to win, which by the way I agree 100% with, but Neurotic Guy is right about Doc's track record. I for one think Doc has an excellent handle on how to bring guys along at the right speed and think the Celtic fandom here at CB simply were over smitten with some of the young guys years ago and didn't see that the best thing for the player and the team was to learn the RIGHT way to play as opposed to any way to play.

I also remember Powe riding the pine a lot. He has stuck with guys like Wally, Raef and Scals when clearly they weren't the answer.   I wouldn't say his track record on young players is terrible, Nuerotic guy has some good examples of the correct evaluation, but it is less than excellent. Getting some great players and winning a championship have a way of erasing a lot of the not so good stuff.
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