Author Topic: Same old Doc  (Read 16922 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2009, 01:04:49 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 366
  • Tommy Points: 119
I think you're missing the big picture Salmon, Doc doesn't think Hudson is ready for that role to start the season. Last nights game was our final tune up, with pretty much regular rotations for most of the game.

If Hudson hasn't earned a spot in the rotation yet he didn't really have much of a place in the game with the goal of being the final tune up in mind.

As opposed to Giddens, who has earned a spot in the rotation? 

I don't have a problem w/playing the 2nd unit down the stretch...but if you're going to go away from that, do it with a real purpose in mind. 

Doc's rotations have been fine for the most part--I didn't start this thread, but I do think Doc missed a golden opportunity to play Hudson in exactly the kind of situations we might need to play him in the regular season.  We struggle against two point guard lineups, and against quick point guards in general.  When Charlotte plays Felton and Augustin down the stretch in some game in the future, and Rondo happens to have fouled out, would you really rather match up with House or Giddens or Hudson?  Hudson makes the most sense, and I just find it odd that Doc went with Giddens last night.  I would have rather seen Giddens on Al Harrington.

I mean, it is the preseason, so it's not that big of a deal.  But given Doc's history of poor in-game adjustment, failing to play Hudson in the one situation for which he's perfectly suited doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

If anyone is going to get caught up in how many minutes the 15th guy plays in a preseason game, then I think their priorities are out of whack.

Yeah, so maybe you should take that comment over to the Sweetney thread where it belongs. 

Hudson has a role on this team--short-minute point guard defense, with an ability to hit a shot or three.  A perfect opportunity was wasted last night to get him some experience in that role...
Folly. Persist.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2009, 01:11:23 PM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
I think you're missing the big picture Salmon, Doc doesn't think Hudson is ready for that role to start the season. Last nights game was our final tune up, with pretty much regular rotations for most of the game.

If Hudson hasn't earned a spot in the rotation yet he didn't really have much of a place in the game with the goal of being the final tune up in mind.

As opposed to Giddens, who has earned a spot in the rotation? 

I don't have a problem w/playing the 2nd unit down the stretch...but if you're going to go away from that, do it with a real purpose in mind. 

Doc's rotations have been fine for the most part--I didn't start this thread, but I do think Doc missed a golden opportunity to play Hudson in exactly the kind of situations we might need to play him in the regular season.  We struggle against two point guard lineups, and against quick point guards in general.  When Charlotte plays Felton and Augustin down the stretch in some game in the future, and Rondo happens to have fouled out, would you really rather match up with House or Giddens or Hudson?  Hudson makes the most sense, and I just find it odd that Doc went with Giddens last night.  I would have rather seen Giddens on Al Harrington.

I mean, it is the preseason, so it's not that big of a deal.  But given Doc's history of poor in-game adjustment, failing to play Hudson in the one situation for which he's perfectly suited doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

If anyone is going to get caught up in how many minutes the 15th guy plays in a preseason game, then I think their priorities are out of whack.

Yeah, so maybe you should take that comment over to the Sweetney thread where it belongs. 

Hudson has a role on this team--short-minute point guard defense, with an ability to hit a shot or three.  A perfect opportunity was wasted last night to get him some experience in that role...

1. Hudson's role on this team is emergency PG.  Right now, that is it.  That might expand at some point, but so far, he has not earned anything more than that.

2. Giddens played last night because they needed a 5th guy to fill in on the second team, and it was Giddens turn to get a look.  Doc has done the same thing with Hudson in previous games, as well as with Scal at the 3.  If Walker and Allen were healthy, they would also be sliding in there in certain games.

3. Why would I take that comment to the Sweetney thread?  Hudson is the 15th man, not Sweetney.  There is not even a roster spot for the whale.

Right now, Hudson is the 15th man on this team.  He has the opportunity to move up the depth chart as the season progresses, but he has not done it yet.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2009, 02:08:55 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
I think you're missing the big picture Salmon, Doc doesn't think Hudson is ready for that role to start the season. Last nights game was our final tune up, with pretty much regular rotations for most of the game.

If Hudson hasn't earned a spot in the rotation yet he didn't really have much of a place in the game with the goal of being the final tune up in mind.

As opposed to Giddens, who has earned a spot in the rotation? 

I don't have a problem w/playing the 2nd unit down the stretch...but if you're going to go away from that, do it with a real purpose in mind. 

Doc's rotations have been fine for the most part--I didn't start this thread, but I do think Doc missed a golden opportunity to play Hudson in exactly the kind of situations we might need to play him in the regular season.  We struggle against two point guard lineups, and against quick point guards in general.  When Charlotte plays Felton and Augustin down the stretch in some game in the future, and Rondo happens to have fouled out, would you really rather match up with House or Giddens or Hudson?  Hudson makes the most sense, and I just find it odd that Doc went with Giddens last night.  I would have rather seen Giddens on Al Harrington.

I mean, it is the preseason, so it's not that big of a deal.  But given Doc's history of poor in-game adjustment, failing to play Hudson in the one situation for which he's perfectly suited doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

If anyone is going to get caught up in how many minutes the 15th guy plays in a preseason game, then I think their priorities are out of whack.

Yeah, so maybe you should take that comment over to the Sweetney thread where it belongs. 

Hudson has a role on this team--short-minute point guard defense, with an ability to hit a shot or three.  A perfect opportunity was wasted last night to get him some experience in that role...

  What three players do you think Doc will leave inactive every night so Hudson can stay off of the inactive list/out of the D-league? He'll be like Gabe Pruitt was 2 years ago.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2009, 02:58:06 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 366
  • Tommy Points: 119

  What three players do you think Doc will leave inactive every night so Hudson can stay off of the inactive list/out of the D-league? He'll be like Gabe Pruitt was 2 years ago.

Easy; TA/Walker/Giddens/Williams right now.

When healthy, TA makes the active list.  When Walker gets healthy, he has a chance to take Hudson's spot. 

I expect Hudson to go down to the D-league at some point during the season to work on his PG skills.  Right now, with 13 healthy bodies, I expect Hudson to be firmly in the top 12. 


3. Why would I take that comment to the Sweetney thread?  Hudson is the 15th man, not Sweetney.  There is not even a roster spot for the whale.

Right now, Hudson is the 15th man on this team.  He has the opportunity to move up the depth chart as the season progresses, but he has not done it yet.

I hadn't heard that, Chris.  If we include injuries, Hudson's no worse than 13th man right now. 

As for the battle between Scal/Williams/Giddens/Hudson, I think Scal has the most confidence of the coaching staff, meaning he has the inside track on 10th man (with House/Daniels/'Sheed/Baby rounding out players 6-9).

With Scal in the top 10, I think that makes Williams one of the inactives on most nights.  Scal is really a four, and with KG/Perk/Sheed/Baby, we don't have a need for a 6th big man.

That puts Giddens and Hudson as 11/12th men to open the season.

Giddens has shown (finally) that he can play in the confines of a team--what he hasn't shown is that he can score.  For all Doc's talk about knowing his role and playing defense to get on the court, Giddens won't play until he can be a consistent offensive performer.  Giddens should be getting a look at small forward, which is a position of need and a position which fits Giddens' skill set.

Hudson also plays a position of need; as the only reserve on the team who can guard the PG position.  On some nights, that ability to defend the PG position will be a nice luxury to have for a few minutes in the 2nd and 4th quarters, unless you want to see E-House out there fake-hustling on defense against the Augustins or Robinsons or Lowrys of the world.  We're a defensive team and Hudson gives us a defensive presence behind Rondo at point guard.

Of course, when TA and Walker get healthy, I think Hudson and Giddens will go to the D-League (which doesn't start play until December anyway).  Both players need it--Giddens to continue to work on his offense, and Hudson to work on playing point guard.  But for now both players have emergency type roles on this team--my one and only qualm is that one of those emergency type situations arose last night and Doc inserted the wrong player.  In the first month of the season, there will be situations where Hudson/Giddens could be useful, when, for instance, our 2nd team is having trouble guarding some quick point guard or small forward, and I hope Doc has the ability to recognize those situations instead of running E-House and Scal out to slaughter.  And, frankly, given Doc's history of poor in-game adjustment, I don't think he has the requisite powers of recognition, which makes last night's head-scratching substitution of Giddens over Hudson so significant, even though admittedly nothing in the preseason holds much overall significance. 

The 11/12 guys are relatively unimportant--yet to blissfully ignore situations where their limited skills might help the team (and further each player's development at the same time) boarders on coaching malpractice. 

Doc does have a good record of developing rookies.  If you look at all the rookies that have come through the Cs, Doc has usually played the right ones and not played the wrong ones.  However, while Doc usually gets it right in the end, he also has an established history of taking too long to recognize who has it and who doesn't.  Guys like Gomes or Al Jefferson or Leon Powe all were under-played far beyond the point when it was clear to most that they should be getting time.  So, while Doc can identify good rookies, I don't think he does enough early in the season to get those good rookies playing time in situations which fit their skill sets...
Folly. Persist.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2009, 03:09:25 PM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
Well, my answer to this is...I don't care. 

Wake me when it's next Tuesday. 

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2009, 03:43:37 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
I heard Oriene Greene was a keeper too.
Well, he is a better defender than Eddie House by default, you know...
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2009, 03:48:43 PM »

Offline HomeRunBaker

  • Lonnie Walker IV
  • Posts: 64
  • Tommy Points: 13
I think you're missing the big picture Salmon, Doc doesn't think Hudson is ready for that role to start the season. Last nights game was our final tune up, with pretty much regular rotations for most of the game.

If Hudson hasn't earned a spot in the rotation yet he didn't really have much of a place in the game with the goal of being the final tune up in mind.

As opposed to Giddens, who has earned a spot in the rotation? 

I don't have a problem w/playing the 2nd unit down the stretch...but if you're going to go away from that, do it with a real purpose in mind.

Think outside the box for a moment.  If you are in agreement to what my eyes have seen that Giddens has no future in Boston (or likely in the NBA for that matter) it is beneficial to showcase his athleticism for another team to see "something" in him to take him off our hands for a protected 2nd round pick.  This opens up a spot for Sweetney if the reports are true that we really want to carry him (pun intended).  If this is the case my money is on Giddens to the Grizzlies along with $1.3-1.5m to cover his salary and allow Chris Wallace to once again make his owner a nice days pay of a half mill or so.
 

Quote
Hudson has a role on this team--short-minute point guard defense, with an ability to hit a shot or three.  A perfect opportunity was wasted last night to get him some experience in that role...

If we need Hudson for short minute point guard defense that means Rondo, House and Daniels are all unavailable due to foul trouble or injury.  Any role Hudson would have on that team wouldn't matter in the big picture as we'd be screwed anyway. The guy isn't likely to dress in the top-12 when everyone is healthy, so i'm not sure what role we would be preparing him for.

 

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2009, 04:09:17 PM »

Offline GKC

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 658
  • Tommy Points: 80
  • !@#$%
Why are we comparing Hudson to Giddens? Giddens IF he does crack the rotation, and we haven't seen indication of it yet (the most common full bench lineup is BBW, Sheed, House, Scal, Quis), he only does it on a NEED basis. IE, there's a good SG/SF on the floor, Quis is guarding one, Scal can't guard the other. Let's use Giddens.

Hudson does not currently fit a glaring need for the team, especially since he isn't that great of a passer. If GIddens gets minutes over Lester, it may not be because Giddens is better, but Giddens had better minutes for the TEAM.
[img width= height= alt=]http://www.thegarz.net/Core/lucky.jpg[/img]

Never Forget

"Just because I stand over you doesn't mean you understand me" - Qwel

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2009, 04:28:56 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

  • Jrue Holiday
  • Posts: 366
  • Tommy Points: 119
Why are we comparing Hudson to Giddens? Giddens IF he does crack the rotation, and we haven't seen indication of it yet (the most common full bench lineup is BBW, Sheed, House, Scal, Quis), he only does it on a NEED basis. IE, there's a good SG/SF on the floor, Quis is guarding one, Scal can't guard the other. Let's use Giddens.

Hudson does not currently fit a glaring need for the team, especially since he isn't that great of a passer. If GIddens gets minutes over Lester, it may not be because Giddens is better, but Giddens had better minutes for the TEAM.

Obviously you haven't watched House 'try' to defend quick point guards before.  The same reason Giddens might see some time is the same reason Hudson might; i.e., there's a quick point guard our 2nd unit can't defend well.  We're comparing Giddens/Hudson because they're currently the 11/12th men on this team...

Giddens hasn't gotten minutes with us up to this point because he's not a TEAM player.  He's getting better this season, but that's the rap.  Hudson is miles ahead of Giddens in this aspect of the game.
Folly. Persist.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2009, 04:42:24 PM »

Offline CelticG1

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4201
  • Tommy Points: 288
Apparently you don't watch too many news reports on the Celtics.  The plan has been made very public that the Knicks game was to be most of the starters last preseason game, and that the Cleveland game would be played by mostly the reserves.  So logically, the starters and top reserves got most of the minutes.

Tune in tomorrow, while I am off doing something else, waiting for the real game against Cleveland next week, you will be able to enjoy one of your favorite games of the year.  Hudson should see big minutes, as will JR.  Ditto for Shelden and even Sweetney if he is over the flu.  Enjoy!

Thanks for stating this. Just so we're clear the Celtics starters lost to the knicks starters yesterday. Just cause Doc pulled the starters with 4 minutes left after they were getting beat by 10 doesn't mean that the bench lost to them.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2009, 04:48:16 PM »

Offline Chris

  • Global Moderator
  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18008
  • Tommy Points: 642
Apparently you don't watch too many news reports on the Celtics.  The plan has been made very public that the Knicks game was to be most of the starters last preseason game, and that the Cleveland game would be played by mostly the reserves.  So logically, the starters and top reserves got most of the minutes.

Tune in tomorrow, while I am off doing something else, waiting for the real game against Cleveland next week, you will be able to enjoy one of your favorite games of the year.  Hudson should see big minutes, as will JR.  Ditto for Shelden and even Sweetney if he is over the flu.  Enjoy!

Thanks for stating this. Just so we're clear the Celtics starters lost to the knicks starters yesterday. Just cause Doc pulled the starters with 4 minutes left after they were getting beat by 10 doesn't mean that the bench lost to them.

Also to be clear, this was the preseason, so the only ones who lost anything significant were the Knicks season ticket holders who lost just that much more of their reason for living when they realized this may be the highlight of their season.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2009, 04:50:24 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
Apparently you don't watch too many news reports on the Celtics.  The plan has been made very public that the Knicks game was to be most of the starters last preseason game, and that the Cleveland game would be played by mostly the reserves.  So logically, the starters and top reserves got most of the minutes.

Tune in tomorrow, while I am off doing something else, waiting for the real game against Cleveland next week, you will be able to enjoy one of your favorite games of the year.  Hudson should see big minutes, as will JR.  Ditto for Shelden and even Sweetney if he is over the flu.  Enjoy!

Thanks for stating this. Just so we're clear the Celtics starters lost to the knicks starters yesterday. Just cause Doc pulled the starters with 4 minutes left after they were getting beat by 10 doesn't mean that the bench lost to them.

Yes and no.  Here are our starters' minutes:

Garnett - 24
Pierce - 26
Perkins - 23
Allen - 31
Rondo - 27

Here are the Knicks':

Harrington - 35
Jeffries - 30
Lee - 29
Chandler - 34
Duhon - 35

In other words, the Knicks' starters played a lot more than our guys did.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2009, 05:47:28 PM »

Offline bucknersrevenge

  • Don Chaney
  • *
  • Posts: 1967
  • Tommy Points: 170
Apparently you don't watch too many news reports on the Celtics.  The plan has been made very public that the Knicks game was to be most of the starters last preseason game, and that the Cleveland game would be played by mostly the reserves.  So logically, the starters and top reserves got most of the minutes.

Tune in tomorrow, while I am off doing something else, waiting for the real game against Cleveland next week, you will be able to enjoy one of your favorite games of the year.  Hudson should see big minutes, as will JR.  Ditto for Shelden and even Sweetney if he is over the flu.  Enjoy!



Thanks for stating this. Just so we're clear the Celtics starters lost to the knicks starters yesterday. Just cause Doc pulled the starters with 4 minutes left after they were getting beat by 10 doesn't mean that the bench lost to them.

Also to be clear, this was the preseason, so the only ones who lost anything significant were the Knicks season ticket holders who lost just that much more of their reason for living when they realized this may be the highlight of their season.

TP for that. My favorite part was Al Harrington posing after hitting the late 3 that clinched a close game where NY went down the stretch with their starters and Boston played their bench. Wow Al...you're awesome. HUGE shot in the 2nd to last preseason game. After being the worst preseason team in the league your entire fanbase must be thrilled. And by the way, actually it was the bench that lost the game to the NY starters after tieing the game up at 101 with under 4min to play.
Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity...

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2009, 05:50:11 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7620
  • Tommy Points: 280
Apparently you don't watch too many news reports on the Celtics.  The plan has been made very public that the Knicks game was to be most of the starters last preseason game, and that the Cleveland game would be played by mostly the reserves.  So logically, the starters and top reserves got most of the minutes.

Tune in tomorrow, while I am off doing something else, waiting for the real game against Cleveland next week, you will be able to enjoy one of your favorite games of the year.  Hudson should see big minutes, as will JR.  Ditto for Shelden and even Sweetney if he is over the flu.  Enjoy!



Thanks for stating this. Just so we're clear the Celtics starters lost to the knicks starters yesterday. Just cause Doc pulled the starters with 4 minutes left after they were getting beat by 10 doesn't mean that the bench lost to them.

Also to be clear, this was the preseason, so the only ones who lost anything significant were the Knicks season ticket holders who lost just that much more of their reason for living when they realized this may be the highlight of their season.

TP for that. My favorite part was Al Harrington posing after hitting the late 3 that clinched a close game where NY went down the stretch with their starters and Boston played their bench. Wow Al...you're awesome. HUGE shot in the 2nd to last preseason game. After being the worst preseason team in the league your entire fanbase must be thrilled. And by the way, actually it was the bench that lost the game to the NY starters after tieing the game up at 101 with under 4min to play.

The bench came back and tied it up. They may have lost in the end but the fact that they made a comeback against another team's starting unit is impressive.

Re: Same old Doc
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2009, 06:15:24 PM »

Offline Neurotic Guy

  • Tommy Heinsohn
  • *************************
  • Posts: 25537
  • Tommy Points: 2720
As most of you know i'm not a big fan of Rivers and we won it a couple of years mainly because we had a stacked team with kg.

The biggest crap i don't like about his coaching is his substitution patterns and not giving his rookies a chance to gain experience.

I thought maybe he changed that 2 games ago but he is up to his old tricks playing lester hudson a total of 4 mins the past two games. What has the rookie done? Basically play his butt off, make little mistakes and score points in a variety of ways. He only played 3 mins last game and had a plus 7 on the court. Why make him sit so that his eyes needs to gain the experience on the court instead of sitting him for playing like a "rookie" which makes more sense. I personally think he uses some rookie initation crap that is not necessary all the time.

The more he overplays his stars, the more the bench gets rusty, the less chance we have finishing the season with everyone healthy



I have a hard time understanding your point about Doc and rookies when I look at the development of Rondo, Perkins, Baby, Jefferson, Gomes and Powe (did I miss anyone?) during Rivers' reign.  I can't see much room for complaint about how he's taken them along and increasingly utilized them over time.