Kendrick Perkins: Where does his defense rank among centres?

[the_Bird]

Yeah, Perk as number 3 behind Duncan and Howard makes sense.

His low post defense is wonderful. His ability to protect the rim keeps getting better and better - but no one can touch Howard as a rim protector.

Howard's probably the guy that opposing players are most afraid to drive against.  Perk is fundamentally excellent, a great one-on-one or team defender, not flashy but very fundamentally good.

Howard's the one who's got the intimidation factor as well, which puts him at the top.

[dmopower]

As far as low post defense in 1 on 1 situations, I'll take Perk against anyone in the league.
As far as low post defense plus help defense, I take Howard, Duncan then Perk.
If I am on a good team, I'll Take perk.
He is the only center in the league that can hold his own against the big post players like Shaq.
Perk can play him 1 on 1 and hold his own, neither Duncan nor Howard can make this claim.
There realy isnt any honorable mentions outside Shaq in 1 on 1 in the post and he doesent play the pick and roll as well.
Perk and Glen Davis both held D Howard in check last year and exposed his lack of scoring ability outside layups.

[Greenbean]

I agree with Howard, Duncan, Perkins.






And i hate that Pacers video, that was one of the worst playoff experiences i've had.

Yeah sorry to conjure up pre big 3 memories. That was a really embarassing game...and we even won. I ended up going to game seven two nights later anTHAT was one the worst playoff games I've experienced. They didnt even show up.

[BrickJames]

Perk is top 3 in the league currently, but I'd like to see where he'd rank on another not-as-skilled team.

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

[Who]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

Here's an excerpt from a CelticsHub article
http://celticshub.com/2009/09/25/a-reminder-of-kgs-awesomeness/

2008 regular season Defensive Efficiency: 98.9 points allowed per 100 possessions

2009 regular season overall: 102.3 points allowed/100**

2009 regular season without KG: 109.8 points allowed/100

109.8 is around 20-22th in the league if it held up over a full season. In between Memphis and Toronto.

I think that number is misleading though. I would expect it to be in the 107-108 range (9th-16th) over a full season. A few really bad defensive performances late in the season muddied the waters in a smaller sample size. Also, Rondo's defense bottomed out during that period which lowered the numbers ... which I'm not sure I'm compensating enough for.

[Greenbean]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

Here's an excerpt from a CelticsHub article
http://celticshub.com/2009/09/25/a-reminder-of-kgs-awesomeness/

2008 regular season Defensive Efficiency: 98.9 points allowed per 100 possessions

2009 regular season overall: 102.3 points allowed/100**

2009 regular season without KG: 109.8 points allowed/100

109.8 is around 20-22th in the league if it held up over a full season. In between Memphis and Toronto.



I think that number is misleading though. I would expect it to be in the 107-108 range (9th-16th) over a full season. A few really bad defensive performances late in the season muddied the waters in a smaller sample size. Also, Rondo's defense bottomed out during that period which lowered the numbers ... which I'm not sure I'm compensating enough for.

Also, in the playoffs, it was at 103 (his season average) versus 101 from 08 playoffs. Ill take the playoff numbers as evidence that he can deliver.

Edit: Link - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

The numbers from link above seem a little different than numbers Who provided. I am looking at DRtg which is also defined as points allowed per 100 possesions. Its important to look at the differences, not the number itself because these are limited as far as accuracy goes.

[Who]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

Here's an excerpt from a CelticsHub article
http://celticshub.com/2009/09/25/a-reminder-of-kgs-awesomeness/

2008 regular season Defensive Efficiency: 98.9 points allowed per 100 possessions

2009 regular season overall: 102.3 points allowed/100**

2009 regular season without KG: 109.8 points allowed/100

109.8 is around 20-22th in the league if it held up over a full season. In between Memphis and Toronto.



I think that number is misleading though. I would expect it to be in the 107-108 range (9th-16th) over a full season. A few really bad defensive performances late in the season muddied the waters in a smaller sample size. Also, Rondo's defense bottomed out during that period which lowered the numbers ... which I'm not sure I'm compensating enough for.

Also, in the playoffs, it was at 103 (his season average) versus 101 from 08 playoffs. Ill take the playoff numbers as evidence that he can deliver.

Edit: Link - http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/perkike01.html

The numbers from link above seem a little different than numbers Who provided. I am looking at DRtg which is also defined as points allowed per 100 possesions. Its important to look at the differences, not the number itself because these are limited as far as accuracy goes.

Oh sorry, my post may have been unclear, the above are team-wide numbers. Games where KG played and games where KG didn't play.

Not just while Perk was on the court.

[Roy Hobbs]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

I have a hard time blaming Perk for all of our defensive deficiencies after KG went down.  Some of it was that BBD was put into the starting lineup, meaning Mikki Moore was our primary backup center.  Some of it was that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were absolutely exhausted, and could give less on the defensive end.  Very little, of any, of the breakdown was due to Perk.

[BrickJames]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

I have a hard time blaming Perk for all of our defensive deficiencies after KG went down.  Some of it was that BBD was put into the starting lineup, meaning Mikki Moore was our primary backup center.  Some of it was that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were absolutely exhausted, and could give less on the defensive end.  Very little, of any, of the breakdown was due to Perk.

TP to Who for the breakdown.

And to be clear, I wasn't saying it was Perk's fault that our DEF numbers as a team got worse (I wasn't even certain that they did).

Instead, I was asking someone to compile the DEF numbers for Perkins specifically in games that KG plays versus does not play.  I asked for last year in particular as a single season would be a cohesive body of work to make as valid a comparison as possible.

Again, what I was getting at is that I doubt Perk is nearly as effective defensively without good defenders around him.  You can say that about most players I bet - but I would also bet that the elite defenders in the league are just as good defensively no matter what team they are on.

I don't think Perk is anywhere near that level.

[Brickowski]

I don't believe in defensive numbers, other than basic team stats such as points allowed and fg percentage allowed.  You have to watch over a period of time to get a sense of how good an individual player is defensively.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said there are lies, [dang]ed lies and statistics.

IMHO Greg Oden, if he can stay healthy,  will untimately surpass Dwight Howard as the league's best defensive center.  Oden has better lateral mobility than Howard, and is smarter.

But Perkins won't be far behind those two.

[GKC]

I don't believe in defensive numbers, other than basic team stats such as points allowed and fg percentage allowed.  You have to watch over a period of time to get a sense of how good an individual player is defensively.

I believe it was Mark Twain who said there are lies, [dang]ed lies and statistics.

IMHO Greg Oden, if he can stay healthy,  will untimately surpass Dwight Howard as the league's best defensive center.  Oden has better lateral mobility than Howard, and is smarter.

But Perkins won't be far behind those two.

The problem with only looking at FG% and Points Allowed is it doesn't take into account things such as attempts, free throws, 3pt ratio etc.

Efficiency really is the definitive stat for team defense. It's why Portlands defense is actually worse than it seems, and Denvers defense is better than it seems.

Nobody has actually come up with the definitive individual defensive stat yet, though there is one out there (it's just harder to work out).

If you use +/- or adjusted +/-, and only take the - portion of that, that would be the definitive defensive stat. +/- could be high on players who compensate from very poor defense with great offense, or vice versa (very poor offense but great defense).

If you only use the - portion though, it would see how many points goes against a player when he is on the floor, adjusting it for variables such as the other players on the floor.

Until someone works it out though, the best way to look at +/- as a defensive stat, is to look at players who are not offensively sound yet still have a high +/- (ie Shane Battier).

[GKC]

It is tough to say just centers for me because most guys end up playing the 'bigs' on other teams. Often we see KG covering the opposing Center for example, like against the Cavs and Z a few years back while Perk was on Gooden.

I dont disagree with your ranking, but I have to include a few more names: Yao, Amare, Horton, Sheed, Biedrins, Przbilla, Aldridge, KG and even Shaq all belong in the top defensive bigs discussion along with your top three.

Shaq's pick and roll defense has been terrible. Horton...i believe you mean Horford. He rebounds, but is not an amazing defender especially since he really is a PF but playing C on that team, making him a liability against bigger centers.

Amare...that's a joke right? Amare's been known for being terrible at defense. A guy with that athleticism constantly gets outrebounded, and he goes for too many blocks, often resulting in unneccessary fouls.

I'll give you the rest of the list though. Biedrins is underrated defensively, though he does not do well against bruisers. Przbilla and Yao do change a lot of shots even if they aren't athletically gifted.

Actual defensive centers though, i would agree with the Howard, Duncan, Perk 1-2-3. I would also add a few names to the list.

Brook Lopez has tremendous potential and is already a very sound defender.

I'm looking for defensive efficiency and +/- numbers for Centers

[drza44]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

I have a hard time blaming Perk for all of our defensive deficiencies after KG went down.  Some of it was that BBD was put into the starting lineup, meaning Mikki Moore was our primary backup center.  Some of it was that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were absolutely exhausted, and could give less on the defensive end.  Very little, of any, of the breakdown was due to Perk.

TP to Who for the breakdown.

And to be clear, I wasn't saying it was Perk's fault that our DEF numbers as a team got worse (I wasn't even certain that they did).

Instead, I was asking someone to compile the DEF numbers for Perkins specifically in games that KG plays versus does not play.  I asked for last year in particular as a single season would be a cohesive body of work to make as valid a comparison as possible.

Again, what I was getting at is that I doubt Perk is nearly as effective defensively without good defenders around him.  You can say that about most players I bet - but I would also bet that the elite defenders in the league are just as good defensively no matter what team they are on.

I don't think Perk is anywhere near that level.

I did a breakdown one time where I looked at the defensive production of the top 5-man units for the Celtics last year, and I remember it being interesting.  I looked at the production when Rondo/Pierce/Allen were all playing together and the big men were either KG + someone else or Perk + someone else.  The results were strikingly that without KG the defense stunk, but without Perk there wasn't much difference.  Let's see if I can find it again...

(From 82games.com http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOS2.HTM . Off = points per possession, Def = points allowed per possession.  Remember, Rondo/Allen/Pierce are the constants, so I'll just list the big men combos)

1) KG and Perk: 1.12 Off, .98 Def
2) Baby and Perk: 1.09 Off, 1.15 Def
3) KG and Scal: 1.22 Off, .96 Def
4) Powe and Perk: 1.11 Off, 1.08 Def
5) KG and Baby: 1.14 Off, .96 Def
6) KG and Powe: 1.18 Off, .88 Def
7) Scal and Perk: 1.25 Off, 1.00 Def

As you can see, no matter who KG was paired with up front (Perk, Scal, Baby, or Powe) the defense was outstanding, giving up less than a point per possession with our main perimeter crew.  But for Perk, the only time the defense game up less than a point per possession was when he was paired with KG.  I think that result looks pretty robust across several combos.  The specific numbers might change based on sample size, but the trend is abundantly clear.

[wdleehi]

Any stats fiends wanna compare his defensive efficiency numbers last year in games KG played vs. games KG did not play?

I have a hard time blaming Perk for all of our defensive deficiencies after KG went down.  Some of it was that BBD was put into the starting lineup, meaning Mikki Moore was our primary backup center.  Some of it was that Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were absolutely exhausted, and could give less on the defensive end.  Very little, of any, of the breakdown was due to Perk.

TP to Who for the breakdown.

And to be clear, I wasn't saying it was Perk's fault that our DEF numbers as a team got worse (I wasn't even certain that they did).

Instead, I was asking someone to compile the DEF numbers for Perkins specifically in games that KG plays versus does not play.  I asked for last year in particular as a single season would be a cohesive body of work to make as valid a comparison as possible.

Again, what I was getting at is that I doubt Perk is nearly as effective defensively without good defenders around him.  You can say that about most players I bet - but I would also bet that the elite defenders in the league are just as good defensively no matter what team they are on.

I don't think Perk is anywhere near that level.

I did a breakdown one time where I looked at the defensive production of the top 5-man units for the Celtics last year, and I remember it being interesting.  I looked at the production when Rondo/Pierce/Allen were all playing together and the big men were either KG + someone else or Perk + someone else.  The results were strikingly that without KG the defense stunk, but without Perk there wasn't much difference.  Let's see if I can find it again...

(From 82games.com http://www.82games.com/0809/0809BOS2.HTM . Off = points per possession, Def = points allowed per possession.  Remember, Rondo/Allen/Pierce are the constants, so I'll just list the big men combos)

1) KG and Perk: 1.12 Off, .98 Def
2) Baby and Perk: 1.09 Off, 1.15 Def
3) KG and Scal: 1.22 Off, .96 Def
4) Powe and Perk: 1.11 Off, 1.08 Def
5) KG and Baby: 1.14 Off, .96 Def
6) KG and Powe: 1.18 Off, .88 Def
7) Scal and Perk: 1.25 Off, 1.00 Def

As you can see, no matter who KG was paired with up front (Perk, Scal, Baby, or Powe) the defense was outstanding, giving up less than a point per possession with our main perimeter crew.  But for Perk, the only time the defense game up less than a point per possession was when he was paired with KG.  I think that result looks pretty robust across several combos.  The specific numbers might change based on sample size, but the trend is abundantly clear.

Moore-Perkins:  1.08     0.97

[youcanthandlethetruth113]

I'd say he's #1.

He's the only guy in the league who can neutralize Dwight Howard.

His help-defense is so underrated as well.