Author Topic: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)  (Read 7188 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 02:38:36 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
My worry about Rondo is the transition to the regular season. In the preseason games with the big three, he's been terrible, mostly with his decision making in that he's taken bad shots and hasn't shot when he should. So many times he should have gone up for a shot and instead tried a fancy/cutesy extra pass that resulted in a turnover. It drives me crazy; next to health, turnovers or lack thereof will be the reason the C's have success this year. We are terrible with turnovers. we got lucky in '08 but it absolutely has to stop to have a chance of being good. I really hope that once the real games start, rondo stops the stupid extra fancy pass that looks good when it works (but rarely does), and just tries to lay it in. even if he doesn't make it every time, him attempting a 60% layup with a chance of getting fouled is much better than trying a tricky pass that may result in a 90% dunk but results in a turnover half the time.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 03:00:46 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7620
  • Tommy Points: 280
My worry about Rondo is the transition to the regular season. In the preseason games with the big three, he's been terrible, mostly with his decision making in that he's taken bad shots and hasn't shot when he should. So many times he should have gone up for a shot and instead tried a fancy/cutesy extra pass that resulted in a turnover. It drives me crazy; next to health, turnovers or lack thereof will be the reason the C's have success this year. We are terrible with turnovers. we got lucky in '08 but it absolutely has to stop to have a chance of being good. I really hope that once the real games start, rondo stops the stupid extra fancy pass that looks good when it works (but rarely does), and just tries to lay it in. even if he doesn't make it every time, him attempting a 60% layup with a chance of getting fouled is much better than trying a tricky pass that may result in a 90% dunk but results in a turnover half the time.

this is getting ridiculous, he knows that he can get to the basket and force the issue to get calls. He's using this time to work on the jumper and to get some familiarity with the new guys.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 03:21:36 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

  • NCE
  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4205
  • Tommy Points: 777
My worry about Rondo is the transition to the regular season. In the preseason games with the big three, he's been terrible, mostly with his decision making in that he's taken bad shots and hasn't shot when he should. So many times he should have gone up for a shot and instead tried a fancy/cutesy extra pass that resulted in a turnover. It drives me crazy; next to health, turnovers or lack thereof will be the reason the C's have success this year. We are terrible with turnovers. we got lucky in '08 but it absolutely has to stop to have a chance of being good. I really hope that once the real games start, rondo stops the stupid extra fancy pass that looks good when it works (but rarely does), and just tries to lay it in. even if he doesn't make it every time, him attempting a 60% layup with a chance of getting fouled is much better than trying a tricky pass that may result in a 90% dunk but results in a turnover half the time.

this is getting ridiculous, he knows that he can get to the basket and force the issue to get calls. He's using this time to work on the jumper and to get some familiarity with the new guys.

Well, all i'm saying is that in the first 3 games i saw a lot of bad habits (practice how you'll play, right?) that could have been attributed to him trying to "defer" to other players rather than shoot. Then, without superstars to defer to, he was better. He needs to have a similar mindset regardless of whom else is on the floor: shoot if it's a good shot, pass if it's the right pass.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 03:33:57 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
When I criticize Rondo I criticize things that he has control over, that he should be able to perform, like running the team, passing (timing/accuracy), the pace, and defense. I never or very rarely criticize his shooting for example, which is his major weaknesses as far as skills are concerened.. So when Rondo frustrates me, it's because he's not performing at the level that he should be with his current skill set, and there's no reason for one to be complacent when he performs that way.

  In general I agree with what you're saying but his current skill set doesn't necessarily give him the experience or maturity of an older player. While I think that Rondo's inconsistency is frequently exaggerated on these boards and that he does some things extremely well for his age the fact is that spells of up and down play aren't that unusual from 22 year old players. People tend to evaluate Rondo in a vacuum.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 03:39:44 PM »

Offline mgent

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7567
  • Tommy Points: 1962
I agree that Rondo plays better when KG or Ray and Paul aren't in the game, but I think that's simply because Rondo becomes the best option on the court.  I have no problem with Rondo playing a quiet game if it means he's always giving up the ball to the big 3.

But I also have to agree that a large part of it is just because he doesn't turn his game on.  KG not being on the court doesn't explain his sometimes sub-par defense.

If Rondo gave 100% all the time and took the ball to the basket on every possession, he could easily be one of the best players in the game (that's if he improves his shot).
Philly:

Anderson Varejao    Tiago Splitter    Matt Bonner
David West    Kenyon Martin    Brad Miller
Andre Iguodala    Josh Childress    Marquis Daniels
Dwyane Wade    Leandro Barbosa
Kirk Hinrich    Toney Douglas   + the legendary Kevin McHale

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2009, 03:44:35 PM »

Offline BballTim

  • Dave Cowens
  • ***********************
  • Posts: 23724
  • Tommy Points: 1123
My worry about Rondo is the transition to the regular season. In the preseason games with the big three, he's been terrible, mostly with his decision making in that he's taken bad shots and hasn't shot when he should. So many times he should have gone up for a shot and instead tried a fancy/cutesy extra pass that resulted in a turnover. It drives me crazy; next to health, turnovers or lack thereof will be the reason the C's have success this year. We are terrible with turnovers. we got lucky in '08 but it absolutely has to stop to have a chance of being good. I really hope that once the real games start, rondo stops the stupid extra fancy pass that looks good when it works (but rarely does), and just tries to lay it in. even if he doesn't make it every time, him attempting a 60% layup with a chance of getting fouled is much better than trying a tricky pass that may result in a 90% dunk but results in a turnover half the time.

  In each of the last 2 years the Celts have had a few less turnovers a game in the playoffs than in the season. Rondo's generally very good about not turning the ball over in the playoffs.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2009, 07:59:20 PM »

Offline Bahku

  • CB HOF Editor
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19771
  • Tommy Points: 3632
  • Oe ma krr pamtseotu
I agree that Rondo plays better when KG or Ray and Paul aren't in the game, but I think that's simply because Rondo becomes the best option on the court.  I have no problem with Rondo playing a quiet game if it means he's always giving up the ball to the big 3.

But I also have to agree that a large part of it is just because he doesn't turn his game on.  KG not being on the court doesn't explain his sometimes sub-par defense.

If Rondo gave 100% all the time and took the ball to the basket on every possession, he could easily be one of the best players in the game (that's if he improves his shot).

Oh ... I didn't mean to imply that it was a 100% thing, or the only reason, just that I think he's much more cautious about driving to the basket when KG is in the game. It looks like it's a little better this year, but I still feel he's cautious about not giving KG his run of the paint, or about driving to the hole as the first option.
2010 PAPOUG, 2012 & 2017 PAPTYG CHAMP, HD BOT

* BAHKU MUSIC *

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2009, 08:57:37 PM »

Offline wdleehi

  • In The Rafters
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 34114
  • Tommy Points: 1612
  • Basketball is Newtonian Physics
However Rondo plays when he is with KG, the Celtics are a better team. 

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #23 on: October 14, 2009, 11:44:35 PM »

Offline drza44

  • Jaylen Brown
  • Posts: 749
  • Tommy Points: 187
I do think Rondo is "different" without KG, but not necessarily for the reasons stated.  Rondo is different because the entire team plays differently when KG isn't in the game.  I did a statistical breakdown during last year's playoffs that showed the differences in the offense with and without KG, and without looking it up the difference is essentially that the scoring volume remains similar but the team has fewer assists, more turnovers, and tends to shoot a lower percentage when Garnett is out.

My reasoning for why this happens is that Garnett is the offensive Ubuntu-maker...he has a pet 2-man play with every starter on the team, and when he's in there his style fosters ball movement.  When he's out, on the other hand, the Celtics resort to individual offensive talent.  Now, there are some extremely talented offensive individuals on the Celtics which is why the scoring volume can remain constant or even increase without Garnett.  But this style requires a lot more individual offense creation with the basketball.

Specifically for Rondo, when Garnett is out Rondo becomes the one that dominates the ball more and becomes primarily responsible for the majority of the non-1-on-1 points that the team generates.  So Rondo's assists go way up while simultaneously his scoring also goes up because he has the ball more and is doing more individual attacking.  Then, as a side benefit, his rebounding numbers also go up because there are more rebounds available when Garnett isn't on the court.

The thing is, I don't necessarily think Rondo playing in KG-out mode would be best for the team when KG is actually around.  When KG is around, you can get back to the free-flowing Ubuntu offense where everyone shares the responsibility for offense creation and efficiency can go back up.  Likewise, Rondo no longer needs to put in the energy on the defensive boards and instead he maybe can leak out more and put more pressure on the opposing defenses off of missed shots.  Yes, this might come at the expense of some of Rajon's numbers, but at the end of the day it benefits the team as a whole.


Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2009, 01:41:12 AM »

Offline Bahku

  • CB HOF Editor
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19771
  • Tommy Points: 3632
  • Oe ma krr pamtseotu
I think how a lot of people interpreted my original post was that I don't like Rondo and KG on the floor at the same time, but that's not what I was trying to get across, because I think the key to this team winning the championship is the starting five remaining healthy, and the chemistry they have together. The main point I was trying to make is that I think Rondo is more tentative about penetrating the paint when KG is there, and I still think it's true.

I think that they should make more of a point to set up plays and encourage Rage to attack the basket more, even while KG is on the floor ... or especially while KG is on the floor. I think the box then becomes more fluid or porous, because Garnett can draw extra defenders away from the paint, allowing Rajon more space to get to the basket, and a driving Rondo will do the same, leaving KG open more for that 18-footer of his. It will also facilitate more interior passing from either one, either in the post or kick-outs to the perimeter.

Even tonight I noticed it, that Rondo was far less likely to penetrate the box when KG was on the floor. Maybe it's just because the plays they have set for KG more often involve Rondo on the perimeter, but I don't really think so. Rage's greatest strength is his speed and his attacking the paint and passing, and he just plain doesn't do it as much when KG is in the post, whatever the reason. Rondo has also got to get his jump-shot going ... until he does, he will not be as affective as he can be, and will not keep the opposing defenses honest.

I honestly think this kid can become one of the premier Point Guards in the NBA, especially if he stays healthy and develops a jump-shot and improves his free-throws. I haven't seen a young player this talented or mature right out of college in a very long time, and one who has taken as much on his shoulders in such a short period of time, leading a team to the championship his second year, (really his first year, as a starting point guard). I'm really excited to see him develop, as well as the other young guys on this team ... should be great!
« Last Edit: October 15, 2009, 03:52:05 AM by Bahku »
2010 PAPOUG, 2012 & 2017 PAPTYG CHAMP, HD BOT

* BAHKU MUSIC *

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2009, 07:01:19 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

  • In The Rafters
  • The Natural
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 33333
  • Tommy Points: 6430
  • Doc could learn a thing or two from Norman Dale
I think how a lot of people interpreted my original post was that I don't like Rondo and KG on the floor at the same time, but that's not what I was trying to get across, because I think the key to this team winning the championship is the starting five remaining healthy, and the chemistry they have together. The main point I was trying to make is that I think Rondo is more tentative about penetrating the paint when KG is there, and I still think it's true.

For what it's worth, I thought it was a very interesting post, and something worth tracking.  There's no denying that Rondo was at his absolute best without KG, and that outside of last year's playoffs, Rondo has been very inconsistent, both in terms of production and (if you believe Doc) focus and/or energy.  It's worth examining why that is, if that inconsistency continues into this season.

All the negativity in this town sucks. It sucks, and it stinks, and it sucks. - Rick Pitino

Portland CrotoNats:  2009 CB Draft Champions

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2009, 08:07:41 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
this is getting ridiculous, he knows that he can get to the basket and force the issue to get calls. He's using this time to work on the jumper and to get some familiarity with the new guys.
Actually, it isn't getting ridiculous, and working on his jumper is precisely what he isn't doing.

He has, more than once, passed up an open jumper to driver in for a layup that isn't there. All I see is more of the same as last year with Rondo, honestly.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2009, 09:54:09 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19003
  • Tommy Points: 1833
When I criticize Rondo I criticize things that he has control over, that he should be able to perform, like running the team, passing (timing/accuracy), the pace, and defense. I never or very rarely criticize his shooting for example, which is his major weaknesses as far as skills are concerened.. So when Rondo frustrates me, it's because he's not performing at the level that he should be with his current skill set, and there's no reason for one to be complacent when he performs that way.

  In general I agree with what you're saying but his current skill set doesn't necessarily give him the experience or maturity of an older player. While I think that Rondo's inconsistency is frequently exaggerated on these boards and that he does some things extremely well for his age the fact is that spells of up and down play aren't that unusual from 22 year old players. People tend to evaluate Rondo in a vacuum.

Overall true and valid, but then you factor in the type of responsibility he has been given on our team. If he had a lesser role, then I wouldn't mind it much. But as it stands, he has been "given the keys of this team" and he HAS to deliver.

For example. On his second year, I was perfectly content with his lesser role throughout the season when we aquired the KG and Ray. You might remember this era as the "pass to the wing and run to the corner" era. As the season progressed he had asserted himself more in our offense, which is all fine and dandy but just the same he was given more control of our offense. Until we arrived to the playoffs and his role running the offense drastically increased from what it was previously during the season. On that aspect he didn't deliver, and it really annoyed the heck out of me. But in that instance, I put the blame on Doc rather than Rondo because I felt he wasn't ready for that type of responsibility yet.

His 3rd year though, he showed numerous times that he was ready for it, that he could deliver it. This was illustrated perfectly particularly during our big winning streak and the Bulls series (though there were many aspects that he could've done better at). And yeah, he was given the keys... he became a vocal leader, he was given the responsibility and he clearly wanted the responsibility. We're a championship contending team, and he simply has to deliver with the level of control he has on our team. That's just the way it is at the moment.

So no, it's not on a vaccum (though I agree that some do to some degree or another)... it's merely from the perspective of a player who has a huge role as we try to win a championship. So while his struggles are perfectly understandable for his age, it's unacceptable with his current role and our championship aspirations (when he plays poorly).


I do think Rondo is "different" without KG, but not necessarily for the reasons stated.  Rondo is different because the entire team plays differently when KG isn't in the game.  I did a statistical breakdown during last year's playoffs that showed the differences in the offense with and without KG, and without looking it up the difference is essentially that the scoring volume remains similar but the team has fewer assists, more turnovers, and tends to shoot a lower percentage when Garnett is out.

My reasoning for why this happens is that Garnett is the offensive Ubuntu-maker...he has a pet 2-man play with every starter on the team, and when he's in there his style fosters ball movement.  When he's out, on the other hand, the Celtics resort to individual offensive talent.  Now, there are some extremely talented offensive individuals on the Celtics which is why the scoring volume can remain constant or even increase without Garnett.  But this style requires a lot more individual offense creation with the basketball.

Specifically for Rondo, when Garnett is out Rondo becomes the one that dominates the ball more and becomes primarily responsible for the majority of the non-1-on-1 points that the team generates.  So Rondo's assists go way up while simultaneously his scoring also goes up because he has the ball more and is doing more individual attacking.  Then, as a side benefit, his rebounding numbers also go up because there are more rebounds available when Garnett isn't on the court.

The thing is, I don't necessarily think Rondo playing in KG-out mode would be best for the team when KG is actually around.  When KG is around, you can get back to the free-flowing Ubuntu offense where everyone shares the responsibility for offense creation and efficiency can go back up.  Likewise, Rondo no longer needs to put in the energy on the defensive boards and instead he maybe can leak out more and put more pressure on the opposing defenses off of missed shots.  Yes, this might come at the expense of some of Rajon's numbers, but at the end of the day it benefits the team as a whole.



Well a combination of both scenarios would be prefferable. Particularly in the Bulls series I really liked that he often attacked early in the shot clock and his pace was really good... those things he can manage with KG in there and improve our overall peformance. One of his problems is when he gets a bit of tunnel vision and he initiates the plays late in the shot clock. And overall I like him doing more attacking, it puts a ton of pressure on the opponents defense,  I think PG's overall have a bit of a responsibility to attempt to break down the defense as often as they can early in the shot clock, and he has shown that he can do it and I don't think KG has to be a factor in this, even if he has shown to be.


I think how a lot of people interpreted my original post was that I don't like Rondo and KG on the floor at the same time, but that's not what I was trying to get across, because I think the key to this team winning the championship is the starting five remaining healthy, and the chemistry they have together. The main point I was trying to make is that I think Rondo is more tentative about penetrating the paint when KG is there, and I still think it's true.

For what it's worth, I thought it was a very interesting post, and something worth tracking.  There's no denying that Rondo was at his absolute best without KG, and that outside of last year's playoffs, Rondo has been very inconsistent, both in terms of production and (if you believe Doc) focus and/or energy.  It's worth examining why that is, if that inconsistency continues into this season.

I don't know about absolute best, but he surely showed a lot of aspects of his game that he often doesn't employ, like I said he pace overall improved and he became more assertive on offense. During our winning streak last year, I thought that Rondo was at his best. He was pushing the ball, making great decisions with the ball, defensing well, and passing the ball well (Ray Allen is my barometer in this for the most part). So, there's some evidence there that Rondo can be a powerhouse with KG in there.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #28 on: October 16, 2009, 09:52:55 AM »

Offline Bahku

  • CB HOF Editor
  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19771
  • Tommy Points: 3632
  • Oe ma krr pamtseotu
I think how a lot of people interpreted my original post was that I don't like Rondo and KG on the floor at the same time, but that's not what I was trying to get across, because I think the key to this team winning the championship is the starting five remaining healthy, and the chemistry they have together. The main point I was trying to make is that I think Rondo is more tentative about penetrating the paint when KG is there, and I still think it's true.

For what it's worth, I thought it was a very interesting post, and something worth tracking.  There's no denying that Rondo was at his absolute best without KG, and that outside of last year's playoffs, Rondo has been very inconsistent, both in terms of production and (if you believe Doc) focus and/or energy.  It's worth examining why that is, if that inconsistency continues into this season.

I don't know about absolute best, but he surely showed a lot of aspects of his game that he often doesn't employ, like I said he pace overall improved and he became more assertive on offense. During our winning streak last year, I thought that Rondo was at his best. He was pushing the ball, making great decisions with the ball, defensing well, and passing the ball well (Ray Allen is my barometer in this for the most part). So, there's some evidence there that Rondo can be a powerhouse with KG in there.


Oh, he absolutely can be a powerhouse when KG is in the game, but my point is, he has't been most of the time. The periods where he has really been at his "peak" were most often times when KG was injured, when he was given the instructions by the coaching staff to just "play" and be himself. I truly believe that Rondo is the key to this team being it's best, and that he needs more of that "attack" attitude while KG is on the floor, and not worry so much about stepping on the toes of the superstar players on this team. I think it's what they want, too, but for whatever reasons, Rage is more tentative about getting to the paint when Garnett is out there. (Maybe the best solution would be for KG to tell Rondo this himself, and make sure Rajon feels more comfortable about attacking the basket when Kevin's on the floor).
2010 PAPOUG, 2012 & 2017 PAPTYG CHAMP, HD BOT

* BAHKU MUSIC *

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2009, 11:51:35 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

  • NCE
  • Kevin Garnett
  • *****************
  • Posts: 17914
  • Tommy Points: 1294
I truly believe that Rondo is the key to this team being it's best, and that he needs more of that "attack" attitude while KG is on the floor, and not worry so much about stepping on the toes of the superstar players on this team.
Actually, the key to this team has always been keeping everyone involved on each possession.

A big part of why we won in 2008 was the superb ball movement, which kept the opponents guessing and resulted in wide open dunks, layups, and jump shots on multiple occasions.

Last season (as Doc has correctly pointed out), our play degenerated into the superstars taking turns to carry the team on their backs, which instantly relegated us from a great to a good team.

Sure, given that we have several players of amazing skill, even this tactic will work quite often, but for (a) we expend much more energy in executing, and (b) our team is no longer more than the sum of its part.

I don't think adding Rondo to the mix of those who take turns to carry the team is a good idea. I think we should go back to the times when the opposition was guessing where our shots will come from on every possession.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."