Author Topic: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)  (Read 7208 times)

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Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« on: October 14, 2009, 03:04:45 AM »

Offline Bahku

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First of all, I must admit I missed tonight's game, so I feel a bit reluctant to comment on anything related. But when I was reading the game reviews, two major things that jumped out at me were, one: the fact that the "Big Three" didn't play, and two: the drastic improvement of Rondo's numbers compared to the last three games.

Now, this is nothing new ... it's something that I've thought about often, (and mentioned here from time-to-time), since Rajon became the starting PG. Both in 2008, when KG had the abdominal injury, and last year when KG went down with the knee problem, Rondo seemed to just "take off" and become two or three times the force that he was when KG was playing.

The reason I bring it up is that I personally feel that when KG is on the floor, Rondo has a tendency to not drive to the basket as much, almost as if he's a bit afraid of invading KG's territory ... that as long as Garnett is in the post, he should be the number one option 9 times out of 10. So instead of penetrating and going strong to the hoop, Rage almost always passes off to KG, and treats the paint like it's out-of-bounds.

Some would say this is no big deal, because the C's seemed to compensate pretty well in 2008 and won the Championship regardless. But it still bothers me a bit because Rondo is so fast, and he can just plain get to the basket almost anytime he wants to. But when KG's on the floor, he very rarely does so, and then becomes a very easy player for opposing teams to defend, because he's yet to get his jump-shot going.

When Garnett is on the floor with Rondo, teams know that Rajon is rarely going to penetrate, and rarely going to shoot, and he then becomes one less worry and actually makes a double-teaming defense that much more effective. Rondo's greatest weapon at this point is his speed, as there are very few players, (if any), in the entire NBA that can keep up with him or defend him if he makes up his mind to get to the basket.

The problem is, when KG is in the paint, Rondo treats it like "sacred" territory, and I think, out of some kind of sub-conscious respect for KG's area of the court, avoids invading the paint whenever possible. When this first happened in 2008, I figured it was just an "immaturity" thing on Rage's part, but after last night's glaring return of Rondo's numbers, I went back and looked over statistics from those times KG was out, and the difference is startling.

I remember when Kevin hurt his abdomen, and Doc told Rondo to just stop thinking so much, penetrate the paint, and just "play" ... Rondo was like a new man during that period, and was the force of the team until KG came back. When Garnet did come back, Rajon went back to being his old tentative self, and pretty much kept his game on the perimeter. Without having a consistent jump-shot or drive to the hoop, a PG becomes very easy to defend, and almost a non-factor.

Now, for those who may think I'm dissing Rondo, don't worry ... I love this kid, and have been one of his biggest proponents since he came to Boston. I honestly think, if he gets to work on his jump-shot, that he can become one of the best guards to ever play this game. That's exactly the reason I'm saying this, because he's not playing to his strengths when he's not driving to the hoop. This kid is so fast and agile, and he can burn almost anyone.

Not only will he be improving his game if he starts driving to the basket more, but when KG is on the floor, the fact that Rajon is going to the basket will make it that much easier for the other players, KG especially, to be more open for their own shots or post moves. Rondo needs to realize that driving to the hoop more will not only improve his own numbers, but will also loosen up those areas of the floor that are much easier to defend when he's sticking to the perimeter game.

This is all speculation, mind you, and I don't know for sure if this is the reason for the difference in Rajon's game with KG's absence. But time-after-time now, he has seemed like a different player when Garnett has been off the court, and tonight's game was another glaring example. I think the rest of the team, the coaches, and KG in particular, have to make sure that they keep pushing Rondo to play "his" game, and to not worry about stepping on any toes by attacking the paint.

This team is at it's best when it's running, and almost impossible to beat, but when Rondo keeps being so reluctant to penetrate the box, (and without a decent jump-shot), it slows everything down, and gives the defense the time it needs to adjust. Rondo needs to know that it wouldn't hinder KG's game for him to drive to the basket, it would help it, because the defense would collapse on Rage and give Kevin more room to post-up or go to that sweet 18-footer of his!

When Rondo is at his best and attacking the basket, and this team is running the floor in "sync" and not over-thinking everything - just playing their game in a "groove" - they are absolutely unstoppable ... and it's a joy to watch!

Go Celtics!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 04:57:07 AM by Bahku »
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Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2009, 08:04:58 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think Rondo drives into the paint plenty when KG plays. KG isn't a typical low post PF after all.

The difference is that KG uses 23% of this teams possessions. With him out there are more chances for Rondo to have the ball in his hand an make a play. So he's more "aggressive", he drives more, and he gets more shots and assists.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2009, 09:39:19 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 09:40:36 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 09:41:50 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked. But yeah, shot blockers do bother him... like we saw with Atlanta.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 09:44:06 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 09:49:33 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

It's on topic because it speaks to Rondo's mind set, which overall is his main problem in all aspects of his game.

And it's not about not having it... I don't care about Rondo missing shots, etc. I do care about him doing the right things on the floor... being aggressive, controling pace. Those things are under his control. It has been a problem that he's had through all his career so far, so this isn't really just about having a bad series and be done with it. It's a problem he has to solve.

He has all the skills in the world, he just has to put it together on a more consistent basis. He's not there yet.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 09:51:54 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

It's on topic because it speaks to Rondo's mind set, which overall is his main problem in all aspects of his game.
His defensive performance in a playoff series last year doesn't strike me as all that relevant to how KG's absense does and does not effect him.

Now his play overall last year when KG was out definitely is worthy of disection. I really don't want this thread to get sucked into the topic of an emotional series for us all, its been done to death. We went in a lot of circles in those threads....

He's still inconsistent I will agree with that.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 10:01:15 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

It's on topic because it speaks to Rondo's mind set, which overall is his main problem in all aspects of his game.
His defensive performance in a playoff series last year doesn't strike me as all that relevant to how KG's absense does and does not effect him. I really don't want this thread to get sucked into that topic, its been done to death.

He's still inconsistent I will agree with that.

Well since my argument was that KG is irrelevant, but that his mindset is, then it does come into the equation. You can't separate one from the other. His problems defensively are quite similar to his offensive problems, there's a connection there. And it's not about "a playoff series", it's about how he plays overall.

As I was reminded by Who a month or so ago, Rondo was playing very well defensively earlier in the season, doing the right things on defense... he went away from it during the course of the season for whatever reason, culminating with the Magics series. Hey KG wasn't here for the 2nd half of the season, you can spin it that way if you want.

Sure, the OP was talking about the offensive aspects, but sometimes clues to those struggles can be seen on the defensive side too, which is merely what I'm pointing out.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 10:08:51 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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Take a look at my slightly expanded post. I just don't want this thread getting sucked into just one specific series.

I think you're right on his overall level of play is uneven. But that's part of becoming a complete player. Last year was the first time he was called upon to be the man on both ends of the court, all of the time. That's when you see if a player is an all-star or just very good. It is also the toughest adjustment for a player to make. Hopefully Rondo takes the next step this year.

I do think KG is relevant though. The more Rondo is called upon to do for this team, the harder it will be for us to win a title. Unless he really does make the leap to all NBA level point guard.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 10:26:53 AM »

Offline KJ33

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I did watch the game, and PP and Ray also did not play.  Rondo lobbied Doc to leave him in during the final stretch to see if he could help lead the reserves to a comeback victory.  It seems inherently obvious that without KG, or Paul and Ray for that matter, that the team has fewer offensive options, and Rondo is needed to step up in the scoring department. 

It has amused me that people have wondered what happened to Rondo this preseason.  He has had all 3 future HOF's, unlike last year's playoffs, and has to reacclimate to playing with all 3 again, not to mention Sheed.  If he came out and was driving and looking to score, to build upon last year's playofff success, it would be at the expense of getting everyone involved.  Since the preseason is about fine tuning, versus the playoffs where it is win at all costs, Rondo's approach is exactly what Doc/Danny wants.  Not to mention his reckless abandon driving is risky and not worth it until the games counts.

In his postgame interview with Greg Dickerson, he was asked, what is he working on in his game personally to get ready for the season.  Rondo replied without hesitation, "running the team", so clearly he is focusing on getting everyone into the sets, being a leader, etc.  He showed when he is needed to be more of a scorer, he can do it, but when he has the Big 3 out there, he is working more on being a floor leader.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 12:39:59 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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Last night there was nothing wrong with Rondo except that he was like 6-14 on FT's, He was setting up all his teammates with nice shots all night, and if he converted from the stripe his numbers would show that he was being aggressive enough. Why would he be looking for his own shot when Sheed and Eddie are lighting it up?

We should be talking about how good Sheed looked.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 01:48:05 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I didn't see much "running of the team" by Rondo in this game. It was more along the lines of "let's see whether I can beat the Nets all by myself".

Sure, it worked, because, let's face it, the Nets are putrid, and they're even worse than that when Harris is out. But if we're going to be increasingly reliant on a player whose main weapon is driving to the basket, who's going to shoot .500-.600 from the FT line, and whose jump shot is, at best, erratic -- I think we're in trouble.

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Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 02:26:45 PM »

Offline BballTim

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

It's on topic because it speaks to Rondo's mind set, which overall is his main problem in all aspects of his game.

And it's not about not having it... I don't care about Rondo missing shots, etc. I do care about him doing the right things on the floor... being aggressive, controling pace. Those things are under his control. It has been a problem that he's had through all his career so far, so this isn't really just about having a bad series and be done with it. It's a problem he has to solve.

He has all the skills in the world, he just has to put it together on a more consistent basis. He's not there yet.

  He's still young. There have been plenty of good/great point guards that didn't have things figured out as well as Rondo has at this stage of his career. Look at where Perk is compared to where he was before we got KG. There's no reason to think Rondo's not going to mature and become more consistent like Perk did. The main difference is that Rondo is close to all-star level right now and Perk wasn't 2 years ago. Rondo will be fine, his defense isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and he wasn't that much more inconsistent than Paul and Ray were in the playoffs last year.

Re: Rondo Different w/o KG (?)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 02:37:26 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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KG is irrelevant. Rondo is different when he decides to play as he should. We saw it early last year when he was playing like crap, then he turned it up a notch and our team started playing awesome basketball... KG was there. And as Rondo was playing good, Ray Allen was having some really really good games, shooting the ball at a very high percentage.

Even though he was a bit banged up during the playoffs, he had a very good Chicago series overall, and a crappy Magics series overall. KG was irrelevant in that. It's all on Rondo.
I think Dwight Howard and other shot blocking teams bother Rondo's game. It isn't just motivation, though I do agree that it's about Rondo not KG.

Other than offense is not everything... his defense sucked.
Yes it did at times. Not really on topic though.

I think people make too much of motivation, heart, and playing hard. Sometimes you just don't have it....

It's on topic because it speaks to Rondo's mind set, which overall is his main problem in all aspects of his game.

And it's not about not having it... I don't care about Rondo missing shots, etc. I do care about him doing the right things on the floor... being aggressive, controling pace. Those things are under his control. It has been a problem that he's had through all his career so far, so this isn't really just about having a bad series and be done with it. It's a problem he has to solve.

He has all the skills in the world, he just has to put it together on a more consistent basis. He's not there yet.

  He's still young. There have been plenty of good/great point guards that didn't have things figured out as well as Rondo has at this stage of his career. Look at where Perk is compared to where he was before we got KG. There's no reason to think Rondo's not going to mature and become more consistent like Perk did. The main difference is that Rondo is close to all-star level right now and Perk wasn't 2 years ago. Rondo will be fine, his defense isn't as bad as people make it out to be, and he wasn't that much more inconsistent than Paul and Ray were in the playoffs last year.

But we're talking about Rondo. I'm talking about what he is, not what he will be. I'm quite aware of what he could be and of his skill level, which is why it's frustrating when he doesn't perform, in part because he's not putting the effort on the court that he should be putting... not because of a skillset problem. If I wasn't aware of his skill level I wouldn't give him the time of the day criticizing him.

When I criticize Rondo I criticize things that he has control over, that he should be able to perform, like running the team, passing (timing/accuracy), the pace, and defense. I never or very rarely criticize his shooting for example, which is his major weaknesses as far as skills are concerened.. So when Rondo frustrates me, it's because he's not performing at the level that he should be with his current skill set, and there's no reason for one to be complacent when he performs that way.