Should the Sox attempt to trade for Felix Hernandez?

[yall hate]

Ummm, it was actually in the national best seller money ball that suggested that Theo and the Sox were trying to figure out what Billy Beane was doing and heard that he wanted Youk so they drafted him. 

"Lewis also revealed that Beane repeatedly tried to trade for Youkilis before Youkilis reached the major leagues. His attempts were blocked, however, by Beane admirer, and now Red Sox GM, Theo Epstein.[118]" Wiki

It is clear that he was held onto by the sox because of the fact that Oakland wanted him so badly. 

And when you look at the prospect  board.  9 out of the top 20 are Starting Pitchers.  That is a pretty big number in my opinion.  For the 9 players on the field at once to devote almost half your top prospects to one position shows an investment in that one position clearly over others. 

yes, and again, that doesnt change the fact that the Sox have dismissed that claim and laughed at it.  Teams dont draft players based on what other teams may or may not do.  Do you believe that anything you read in a bestseller is 100% true?  Moneyball called Youk Greek - 100% not true.  but it must be if it was written in the book...


The fact that the Sox wouldnt trade him indicates what? that they liked him because they had a belief as to what he could be? wow, thats a crazy thought, I bet it was a conspiracy to keep Youk away from Beane, rather then to make the sox better.   

I dont know, when a team wont trade a player, I tend to think it is because they like him, think he can help them, etc...not to spite another gm.  thats just silly. Am I missing something, or do you actually believe they held onto Youk just to keep him from Beane?



9 out of 20 isnt even half. 

4 of the top 5 are position players (5 of 5 if you consider Kelly still wants to be a SS)

6 of 10 (thats 60%) of the top 10 are position players, 7 of 10 (70%) if you consider Kelly, who is unlikely to remain a position player, yet is playing SS this winter since he still wants to.

9 of the top 13 are position players.

So with those numbers, how does it make sense to say that they prefer drafting pitchers, or whatever argument you attempted to make?  whether that is their strategy or not, there are many (in fact, the majority of top 20 prospects) who are position players.

[Evantime34]

I don't think you trade Buchholz he hasn't pitched a full season in the majors yet but has looked very good. King Felix is an upgrade but not the kind that would cost us Paps Buchs and prospects. If we could get a three team trade going that net us King Felix and Adrian Gonzalez, I would give up Buch, Paps, Bowden, Reddick, Anderson, and some other low level prospects. I think the player we need the most is Gonzalez, we have good starting pitching with Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Dice-K and Wake, Tazawa, or Bowden, we need hitting.

[Rondo2287]

Ummm, it was actually in the national best seller money ball that suggested that Theo and the Sox were trying to figure out what Billy Beane was doing and heard that he wanted Youk so they drafted him. 

"Lewis also revealed that Beane repeatedly tried to trade for Youkilis before Youkilis reached the major leagues. His attempts were blocked, however, by Beane admirer, and now Red Sox GM, Theo Epstein.[118]" Wiki

It is clear that he was held onto by the sox because of the fact that Oakland wanted him so badly. 

And when you look at the prospect  board.  9 out of the top 20 are Starting Pitchers.  That is a pretty big number in my opinion.  For the 9 players on the field at once to devote almost half your top prospects to one position shows an investment in that one position clearly over others. 

yes, and again, that doesnt change the fact that the Sox have dismissed that claim and laughed at it.  Teams dont draft players based on what other teams may or may not do.  Do you believe that anything you read in a bestseller is 100% true?


The fact that the Sox wouldnt trade him indicates what? that they liked him because they had a belief as to what he could be? wow, thats a crazy thought, I bet it was a conspiracy to keep Youk away from Beane, rather then to make the sox better.   

I dont know, when a team wont trade a player, I tend to think it is because they like him, think he can help them, etc...not to spite another gm.  thats just silly. Am I missing something, or do you actually believe they held onto Youk just to keep him from Beane?



9 out of 20 isnt even half. 

4 of the top 5 are position players (5 of 5 if you consider Kelly still wants to be a SS)

6 of 10 (thats 60%) of the top 10 are position players, 7 of 10 (70%) if you consider Kelly, who is unlikely to remain a position player, yet is playing SS this winter since he still wants to.

9 of the top 13 are position players.

So with those numbers, how does it make sense to say that they prefer drafting pitchers, or whatever argument you attempted to make?  whether that is their strategy or not, there are many (in fact, the majority of top 20 prospects) who are position players.

Well Im sure the sox really want to admit they werent sure what they were getting in Youkalis but drafted and held on to him anyways despite repeated trade offers because another GM wanted him, what do you expect them to do besides laugh?  Do you believe 100% of everything the redsox say?

and we can agree on one thing 9 out of 20 is not half.  But it still a pretty sizeable number.  

But consider guys that were brought up and no longer count as prospects: 
Bard, Lester, Papelbon, Delcarmen, Buccholz, Masterson.  You are looking at a great number of guys within the system, that have been drafted by the Theo Regime that are pitchers and impact players which greatly outweighs the positional players being brought up.

[speedster]

I would absolutely do that deal (Buchholz, Papelbon, & prospect).  Felix Hernandez is already an elite pitcher and he's just entering his prime.

Papelbon is arguably one of the greatest closers of all time, but I'd still rather have an ace.

[Rondo2287]

Sorry, Should add into my earlier post, Dellcarmen was draft in 2000 so he isnt an epstein guy either. 

[yall hate]

Ummm, it was actually in the national best seller money ball that suggested that Theo and the Sox were trying to figure out what Billy Beane was doing and heard that he wanted Youk so they drafted him. 

"Lewis also revealed that Beane repeatedly tried to trade for Youkilis before Youkilis reached the major leagues. His attempts were blocked, however, by Beane admirer, and now Red Sox GM, Theo Epstein.[118]" Wiki

It is clear that he was held onto by the sox because of the fact that Oakland wanted him so badly. 

And when you look at the prospect  board.  9 out of the top 20 are Starting Pitchers.  That is a pretty big number in my opinion.  For the 9 players on the field at once to devote almost half your top prospects to one position shows an investment in that one position clearly over others. 

yes, and again, that doesnt change the fact that the Sox have dismissed that claim and laughed at it.  Teams dont draft players based on what other teams may or may not do.  Do you believe that anything you read in a bestseller is 100% true?


The fact that the Sox wouldnt trade him indicates what? that they liked him because they had a belief as to what he could be? wow, thats a crazy thought, I bet it was a conspiracy to keep Youk away from Beane, rather then to make the sox better.   

I dont know, when a team wont trade a player, I tend to think it is because they like him, think he can help them, etc...not to spite another gm.  thats just silly. Am I missing something, or do you actually believe they held onto Youk just to keep him from Beane?



9 out of 20 isnt even half. 

4 of the top 5 are position players (5 of 5 if you consider Kelly still wants to be a SS)

6 of 10 (thats 60%) of the top 10 are position players, 7 of 10 (70%) if you consider Kelly, who is unlikely to remain a position player, yet is playing SS this winter since he still wants to.

9 of the top 13 are position players.

So with those numbers, how does it make sense to say that they prefer drafting pitchers, or whatever argument you attempted to make?  whether that is their strategy or not, there are many (in fact, the majority of top 20 prospects) who are position players.

Well Im sure the sox really want to admit they werent sure what they were getting in Youkalis but drafted and held on to him anyways despite repeated trade offers because another GM wanted him, what do you expect them to do besides laugh?  Do you believe 100% of everything the redsox say?

and we can agree on one thing 9 out of 20 is not half.  But it still a pretty sizeable number. 

But consider guys that were brought up and no longer count as prospects:
Bard, Lester, Papelbon, Delcarmen, Buccholz, Masterson.  You are looking at a great number of guys within the system, that have been drafted by the Theo Regime that are pitchers and impact players which greatly outweighs the positional players being brought up.

I just dont understand how/why you think because they wouldnt trade them it was because they didnt want Beane to have a guy that he wanted rather than the sox holding on to him because they liked him.  it's illogical to think they would withhold making their team better (if you believe that the Sox didnt know what they had, and Beane really coveted him, meaning he would give up something significant) just because of a fear that Beane really liked him. 


but anyway, you list 6 pitchers who have been called up.  Pedroia, Youk, Lowrie, Jacoby...

so thats 4 more position players.

At best, you could say it is fairly even.   so again, I am unsure how an argument could be made that there is an overwhlming policy.

But they did draft 'power hitters' in Matt LaPorta, Pedro Alverez, Allen Dykstra, Michael Yastremski, etc...those are guys that they didnt sign.

[Rondo2287]

Ummm, it was actually in the national best seller money ball that suggested that Theo and the Sox were trying to figure out what Billy Beane was doing and heard that he wanted Youk so they drafted him. 

"Lewis also revealed that Beane repeatedly tried to trade for Youkilis before Youkilis reached the major leagues. His attempts were blocked, however, by Beane admirer, and now Red Sox GM, Theo Epstein.[118]" Wiki

It is clear that he was held onto by the sox because of the fact that Oakland wanted him so badly. 

And when you look at the prospect  board.  9 out of the top 20 are Starting Pitchers.  That is a pretty big number in my opinion.  For the 9 players on the field at once to devote almost half your top prospects to one position shows an investment in that one position clearly over others. 

yes, and again, that doesnt change the fact that the Sox have dismissed that claim and laughed at it.  Teams dont draft players based on what other teams may or may not do.  Do you believe that anything you read in a bestseller is 100% true?


The fact that the Sox wouldnt trade him indicates what? that they liked him because they had a belief as to what he could be? wow, thats a crazy thought, I bet it was a conspiracy to keep Youk away from Beane, rather then to make the sox better.   

I dont know, when a team wont trade a player, I tend to think it is because they like him, think he can help them, etc...not to spite another gm.  thats just silly. Am I missing something, or do you actually believe they held onto Youk just to keep him from Beane?



9 out of 20 isnt even half. 

4 of the top 5 are position players (5 of 5 if you consider Kelly still wants to be a SS)

6 of 10 (thats 60%) of the top 10 are position players, 7 of 10 (70%) if you consider Kelly, who is unlikely to remain a position player, yet is playing SS this winter since he still wants to.

9 of the top 13 are position players.

So with those numbers, how does it make sense to say that they prefer drafting pitchers, or whatever argument you attempted to make?  whether that is their strategy or not, there are many (in fact, the majority of top 20 prospects) who are position players.

Well Im sure the sox really want to admit they werent sure what they were getting in Youkalis but drafted and held on to him anyways despite repeated trade offers because another GM wanted him, what do you expect them to do besides laugh?  Do you believe 100% of everything the redsox say?

and we can agree on one thing 9 out of 20 is not half.  But it still a pretty sizeable number. 

But consider guys that were brought up and no longer count as prospects:
Bard, Lester, Papelbon, Delcarmen, Buccholz, Masterson.  You are looking at a great number of guys within the system, that have been drafted by the Theo Regime that are pitchers and impact players which greatly outweighs the positional players being brought up.

I just dont understand how/why you think because they wouldnt trade them it was because they didnt want Beane to have a guy that he wanted rather than the sox holding on to him because they liked him.  it's illogical to think they would withhold making their team better (if you believe that the Sox didnt know what they had, and Beane really coveted him, meaning he would give up something significant) just because of a fear that Beane really liked him. 


but anyway, you list 6 pitchers who have been called up.  Pedroia, Youk, Lowrie, Jacoby...

so thats 4 more position players.

At best, you could say it is fairly even.   so again, I am unsure how an argument could be made that there is an overwhlming policy.

But they did draft 'power hitters' in Matt LaPorta, Pedro Alverez, Allen Dykstra, Michael Yastremski, etc...those are guys that they didnt sign.

OK but they havent been able to develop any power hitters.  Youk is the closest one since Mo Vaughn really. 

[yall hate]

OK but they havent been able to develop any power hitters.  Youk is the closest one since Mo Vaughn really. 

Yes, I agree with that.

But how many power hitters (40+ HR's?, 45+?) are there?  and where are those guys drafted?

Not many, coupled with being drafted early, combined with the Sox drafting towards the back of the draft makes it more difficult to find them. 

So I dont think it is an organizational policy as opposed to jsut the nature of the draft.

[Rondo2287]

OK but they havent been able to develop any power hitters.  Youk is the closest one since Mo Vaughn really. 

Yes, I agree with that.

But how many power hitters (40+ HR's?, 45+?) are there?  and where are those guys drafted?

Not many, coupled with being drafted early, combined with the Sox drafting towards the back of the draft makes it more difficult to find them. 

So I dont think it is an organizational policy as opposed to jsut the nature of the draft.

Exactly which is why my statement was do you think the sox are drafting pitching over hitting in many situations to try and turn them for established hitters down the road.  Because as you stated there were a bunch of power guys drafted that didnt pan out.  Do you think the sox find it easier to project young pitching and build chips that way?

[BudweiserCeltic]

Absolutely would do a move for Felix Hernandez. Big fan of Papelbon, but I think this is the right time to move him. For some time now the signs have been coming that he's not been as good as he once was (funny since he's quite young still). But he's simply not being as dominant as he used to be, clean innings are becoming more rare. He still has a good ERA though, so he can be quite attractive... but his WHIP has been increasing, he's walking more people than he used to... in all, he isn't giving me the confidence he used to give me. In all people are getting on base more frequently, via hits or base on balls.

So, go trade him while his value is still fairly high and see what we can get. We can groom Bard in the meantime, maybe keep Wagner while we do that.

We'll see.

[yall hate]

OK but they havent been able to develop any power hitters.  Youk is the closest one since Mo Vaughn really. 

Yes, I agree with that.

But how many power hitters (40+ HR's?, 45+?) are there?  and where are those guys drafted?

Not many, coupled with being drafted early, combined with the Sox drafting towards the back of the draft makes it more difficult to find them. 

So I dont think it is an organizational policy as opposed to jsut the nature of the draft.

Exactly which is why my statement was do you think the sox are drafting pitching over hitting in many situations to try and turn them for established hitters down the road.  Because as you stated there were a bunch of power guys drafted that didnt pan out.  Do you think the sox find it easier to project young pitching and build chips that way?

right, and the answer was, no they dont try to draft pitching for that purpose.  If the potential power hitter was sitting there (i.e., Jason Place - who apparently stinks, Lars Anderson, Rizzo, Renfroe, the 4 others that I mentioned they drafted but couldnt sign, etc...) they will draft him, they just dont often have the opportunity often.


I dont think they have a preference as to whether they use FA money on hitters or pitchers...they sign/trade for where they have holes.  and their holes arent a result of avoiding drafting hitters, but rather because they draft the best players (signability is an issue, I understand) that they can

[ToppersBsktball10]

After Sunday, I'd do it.

[Brickowski]

I see he's a FA in 2011.  Wait until then. He won't stay in Seattle.

[Donoghus]

I see he's a FA in 2011.  Wait until then. He won't stay in Seattle.

Yeah, he'll end up in New York.

[winsomme]

If we're giving up Buchholz I think we need to get the bat for the middle of our order. Personally, I think the player to target is Hanley...some think Mauer, but I'm not convinced he's leaving MIN.

Hanley in the middle of this lineup would do wonders....Pedroia, VIctor, Hanley, Papi, Bay...that's an insane hitting lineup..