Author Topic: Is MJ top 3 of all time.  (Read 12041 times)

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Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 03:26:36 PM »

Offline Tai

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I also forgot to add that I'm shocked Shaq couldn't make the all-defensive first team when there haven't been that many dominant centers to face. And, MJ's teams never had a dominant big man, so what's this about MJ supposedly never having to face the Shaqs and Duncans and David Robinsons of the world?

Again, the argument's about top 3. If MJ's not that, then I think I've went to an alternate universe.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 03:38:50 PM »

Offline jambr380

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I always put Jordan  number 1.



Of all the guys that lead teams to multiple titles, Jordan is the only one I can think of that is not or did not have a dominate big man.  


2 is Russel.  (to many titles)


3 is Wilt.

4 is Magic

5 is Bird

6 is Kareem

7 is big O

8 is Duncan

9 is Shaq

10 is the Dream



(at least in my head today)

overall I agree with the list, though I think Kobe may have to sadly sneak in there, and when all is said and done, King James will take his place in the top 10 as well



Kobe over who?

Shaq and Duncan are already the two most dominate players of his era. 

The Dream was the 2nd best player behind Jordan in the previous era. 




Lebron (and other younger players) always have a chance to jump up if they do great things.

Until the last title, I would have agreed on Kobe, but he proved he can do it without another superstar this year, and the dream's titles were never against MJ...

Man, I think I am going to have to wait until all is said and done for Kobe because Hakeem was so awesome and so dynamic for a center. Whenever I watch video of Hakeem, I am always so amazed by his fakes. Kobe definitely loaded up on titles early in his career, but I think that is a little deceptive. Lebron will probably move up the list eventually, but I don't think it will be with Cleveland.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2009, 03:47:41 PM »

Offline chakfu

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Pippen couldn't win a title with a better supporting cast than Jordan ever had in Houston...

Scottie Pippen has had FAR more success without Jordan than vice versa.

Jordan retires the first time, they go from 57 wins to 55.

Meanwhile, Bird misses a season, and a team with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale, plus Reggie Lewis can only win 42 games.

It's pretty wild to say much about Jordan improving teammates, in comparison to other all-time greats. 

I talk about Jordan and the refs because in that era from '97-'03, Jordan, and later the Lakers, got a level of deference from the referees that was unprecedented and made the league a farce like it has never been, before or since.    Maybe Bird and Magic got some calls, but they were playing against each other - meanwhile the worship of Jordan was basically unopposed.   And if Bird and Magic really got that much respect - the Pistons would NEVER have been able to thug their way past either team.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2009, 03:50:08 PM »

Offline chakfu

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Greatest all-around individual player: Jordan

Greatest all-around team player: Oscar Robertson, in a squeaker over Jordan, Magic, and Bird

How can all-around individual player and all-around team player be different lists in a team sport like basketball?

Jordan is a legit choice for greatest ever, but what is a joke is acting like it's not a squeaker over Magic/Bird/etc - especially on a Celtics board.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2009, 03:51:44 PM »

Offline budMovin

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Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2009, 03:54:46 PM »

Offline Tai

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Pippen couldn't win a title with a better supporting cast than Jordan ever had in Houston...

Scottie Pippen has had FAR more success without Jordan than vice versa.

Jordan retires the first time, they go from 57 wins to 55.

Meanwhile, Bird misses a season, and a team with Robert Parish and Kevin McHale, plus Reggie Lewis can only win 42 games.

It's pretty wild to say much about Jordan improving teammates, in comparison to other all-time greats. 

I talk about Jordan and the refs because in that era from '97-'03, Jordan, and later the Lakers, got a level of deference from the referees that was unprecedented and made the league a farce like it has never been, before or since.    Maybe Bird and Magic got some calls, but they were playing against each other - meanwhile the worship of Jordan was basically unopposed.   And if Bird and Magic really got that much respect - the Pistons would NEVER have been able to thug their way past either team.

 ::)

*walks away from topic shaking his head*

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2009, 03:56:07 PM »

Offline Celtics17

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It's always hard to compare players of different eras, mainly because new fans to the game dont know the other eras well enough. I must confess that my basketball viewing began in the mid 80's and I will say that I think that was probably the best basketball I have seen to date.

That though is not taking anything away from MJ. The guy is the best that I have seen, hands down. I loved Larry, Magic, and even Shaq but they were not as good as MJ was. You could certainly make a good case for all of them but I still give the nod to MJ. As far as all time top 3, I will have to defer that opinion to those bloggers who saw Chamberlain, Russ, & Oscar play because they can give a more accurate portrayal. My dad, a good athlete in his own right, once said that if Shaq could jump 30 inches then Wilt could jump 50. When Wilt died, the USA Today paper had a writeup on him and said he could jump like 52 inches. Who knows, but I know that MJ is the best player I have seen play to date.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2009, 04:09:24 PM »

Offline cdif911

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Pippen couldn't win a title with a better supporting cast than Jordan ever had in Houston...

Scottie Pippen has had FAR more success without Jordan than vice versa.

Jordan retires the first time, they go from 57 wins to 55.



how many titles did Pippen win without MJ?
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Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2009, 04:25:23 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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I love the notion that reffing is why Jordan put up the numbers he did. Doesn't anyone remember the rampant "hand-checking" (blatant clutching and grabbing) that defenders were allowed to do? Jordan got calls because he was insanely athletic and talented enough to put himself into positions to force refs to blow their whistles. With someone generating that many calls, sure, their were a lot of bad calls in his favor. But no one cares to remember how many more bad "no-calls" there were when Jordan would score DESPITE being mugged on the perimeter. Remember, employing overly physical play and thus continuing to raise the bar on what was considered a foul is a widely acknowledged strategy to LIMIT Jordan's numbers. The players in the next generation weren't good enough to be effective facing the same type of defense, so the league actually explicitly changed the ruled to place more restrictions on perimeter mugging. Just think of the numbers Jordan would have produced had he been facing today's non-handchecking defenses.




Additionally, the argument that he didn't have competition is utterly illogical and circular. Had there been no Jordan, we would have been debating Malone, Barkley, Hakeem, Ewing, and Clyde as best players of the generation. Jordan destroyed all of them. So it seems like Jordan didn't have high competition because he beat his competition? So if Jordan had lost a few more series, he'd be a better player, because then he would have faced better competition, right? You can't say that he faced bad competition because his competition never won titles...he was the reason they never won any titles! He's the reason they all look like weak competition, because he was so good!

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2009, 04:37:47 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Greatest all-around individual player: Jordan

Greatest all-around team player: Oscar Robertson, in a squeaker over Jordan, Magic, and Bird

How can all-around individual player and all-around team player be different lists in a team sport like basketball?

Jordan is a legit choice for greatest ever, but what is a joke is acting like it's not a squeaker over Magic/Bird/etc - especially on a Celtics board.

Well, I define it as:

Individual player - can you outplay the guy across from you no matter who he is, are you the best, most individually dominant player on the court no matter who your teammates are?

Team player - do you make the players around you better and help the team achieve its goals even if you're not the one directly making the plays?

Guys like Dominique Wilkins and David Thompson would be far greater individual players than team players.  Guys like Bill Russell and KG are better team players than individual players, though not by the same margin.  To take a more low-level example, Gerald Green is a significantly better individual player than Bruce Bowen ever was, but Bruce is better by a much greater margin as a team player.  Just how I distinguish the two.

And I don't think being a Celtics fan or on a Celtics board obligates you to not even try to be objective.  Bias will always find its way through one way or another, but there's nothing wrong with at least making an effort to think clearly about the question.  I think Bird would have a better case to compete with Jordan if he'd had more longevity, but as it is, he's just not there.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2009, 04:40:32 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Ok so you guys are saying if you're starting an all-time team MJ is your top choice?

You're also saying that if you trade MJ for Bill Russell or even Bird for that matter MJ's new team gets better and the other guy's gets worse?

You're saying MJ's Bulls beat the 80's Celts, Lakers, and Pistons.  

Yeah I don't see it. He couldn't shoot that great the first half of his career. It took about 8 years for his teams to get good, whereas Magic's and Larry's became championship caliber almost immediately and I think even Kareem's Bucks.

Rodman was basically the greatest rebounder ever and the only guy I ever saw that stopped Shaq straight up and he just happened to be on MJ's last three teams with the Bulls.

Cmon. Toine was an all-star during the MJ era.

Bill Russell is like 27-0 in win or go home games with more rings. Doesn't that automatically make MJ #2 at least?  But then ESPN makes him #1 athlete of all sports.

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2009, 04:41:32 PM »

Offline Eja117

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Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2009, 04:44:46 PM »

Offline Eja117

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In terms of MJ being #1 athlete of all time he's not even ahead of Secretariat

Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2009, 04:48:22 PM »

Offline KCattheStripe

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Re: Is MJ top 3 of all time.
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2009, 04:48:52 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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Ok so you guys are saying if you're starting an all-time team MJ is your top choice?

You're also saying that if you trade MJ for Bill Russell or even Bird for that matter MJ's new team gets better and the other guy's gets worse?

You're saying MJ's Bulls beat the 80's Celts, Lakers, and Pistons.  

Yeah I don't see it. He couldn't shoot that great the first half of his career. It took about 8 years for his teams to get good, whereas Magic's and Larry's became championship caliber almost immediately and I think even Kareem's Bucks.

Rodman was basically the greatest rebounder ever and the only guy I ever saw that stopped Shaq straight up and he just happened to be on MJ's last three teams with the Bulls.

Cmon. Toine was an all-star during the MJ era.

Bill Russell is like 27-0 in win or go home games with more rings. Doesn't that automatically make MJ #2 at least?  But then ESPN makes him #1 athlete of all sports.


You can make these type of negative excuses about every player.


Bird didn't win as many as Magic in that era

Magic had Kareem.

Wilt individually outperformed Russell head to head.

Wilt was to selfish most his career costing his team chances to win titles.