Who is our best defender?

[BudweiserCeltic]

I thought Rondo's one-on-one defense was very good for the first two thirds of the season. And, hugely improved from his previous season's work.

Then something happened, or some combination of things. Turning his ankle (ankle?) 3 or 4 in the space of 4-6 weeks. The KG injury. The added offensive responsibilities ... whatever it was (I think it was the injuries) ... and suddenly Rondo's one-on-one defense dropped from very good to poor, and stayed poor for the rest of the season.

In a lot of the Rondo's defense criticism -- I think Rondo's defense from the first part of the year is being forgotten and that there is too much focus on his D from the end part of the season.

I think you're quite correct in this regard... can't really remember his defense earlier in the season, but I think I do remember commenting on how it had improved as you mentioned. But yeah, "something" did happen which made his man defense quite unacceptable.

[MrTripleDouble10]

KG is the better defender. The only thing Perk guards better are centers that pound the ball inside. In all other scenarios pretty much KG is better. He can guard effectively a multitude of positions, he can guard the post, the perimeter, etc.

As for Rondo "Second Team Defense" is crap to me. He really only got there because of the amount of steals he gets. This is where he's good at... doing full court presses and half court traps, playing the passing lane, and sneaking up behind big men on the post to strip the ball away from him. He also has good hands on him to reach in.

But sadly, the thing he fails at is the most important aspect of a defender, particularly a perimeter defender, particularly from the PG position, and that's keeping his man in front of him, stopping PG from getting to the paint... stopping penetration. He has been consistently subpar in this.

  So when you say he's subpar at this, I assume that you mean that he's below average? That many, if not most of the other pgs in the league are better at it than he is? That I could turn on most any game when the season starts and see a pg who's better at keeping opposing pgs out of the lane than Rondo?

Does it matter what I mean? He's just not good at it regardless of what rationalization you can come up with. If many PGs in this era suck at it is of no consequence to me.

For example, would you being the best player of a team that sucks automatically make you a good basketball player just because you can claim to be the best in your team? Similarly here you can't say that Rondo is good at keeping PGs off the paint and stopping penetration just because there aren't a multitude of good defenders in that position.

Maybe I'm reffering to him being subpar compared to his other skills. Maybe I'm reffering to him being subpar when compared to other historically good defenders. At the end of the day does it matter if he's simply not good at doing it?

Hmm you do know that part of the Celtics defensive scheme is to allow Rondo to gamble (try to steal) and filter the other PG's to the middle right into their bigs, right?  Just making sure.  With that being said, I'm not sure what games you've been watching because he's definitely good at playing guys straight up.  Clearly there have been plenty of times when other guys get past him, but more often than not he does the job.

Even the top perimeter defenders get burned off the dribble every now and again.  But to say Rondo "is not even close" is laughable.  Just brushing off his being named to the all-defensive second team is equally as laughable.  Out of curiosity, what other PG (contemporary OR historically) is good in your eyes?  Because I can guarantee no matter who you say, they have allowed their man to get to the paint at least once.  It actually happened to them too believe it or not.

[BballTim]

Agree completly with your points that context does matters, but as much as comparisons are important to understand the skill level of a player, there also needs to be an intrinc value that holds true by itself. In this case, what we know of what makes a good PG defender and what his responsibilities are, one the main responsibilities is stopping penetration and keeping your player in front of you. Keeping a player in front of you is fundamental to all perimeter defenders.

  I disagree. No pg always keeps his man in front of him, and no pg ever has. The only way to really judge them is to compare how often they do it compared to others. What if I said thar Ray Allen is a terrible 3 point shooter? Can you really show whether that's true or false without comparing him to other players?

This problem of Rondo was well illustrated during the playoffs, I really don't see any need to contest it.

  On one hand, that wasn't necessarily Rondo at his best. They played every other day without a break, he led the league in minutes per game, and he re-injured his ankle in the Chicago series. On the other hand, he wasn't as bad as people make him out to be. People here were watching his play closely looking for errors. Do that with any player and you'll see flaws in their games.

And yep, you're right about me being able to clarify what I meant... I just don't think that in this instance there was any need to do so because I don't know how anyone can still think of Rondo as a good penetration stopper. And since I consider that one of the most basic and important defensive elements in the perimeter, I can't in good conscience say that Rondo is a really good defender as many are lead to believe.

  Again, though, "good penetration stopper" and "really good defender" are relative terms. You could be saying that Rondo's defensive skills are poor compared to his passing and rebounding skills. You could be saying that Rondo's a poor penetration stopper compared to the better pgs of the 80s. You could be saying that Rondo's not as good as he could be. But you don't seem to be saying that he's poor at it compared to other pgs that are currently in the league, which is what I'd use as a measuring stick.

[MrTripleDouble10]

Agree completly with your points that context does matters, but as much as comparisons are important to understand the skill level of a player, there also needs to be an intrinc value that holds true by itself. In this case, what we know of what makes a good PG defender and what his responsibilities are, one the main responsibilities is stopping penetration and keeping your player in front of you. Keeping a player in front of you is fundamental to all perimeter defenders.

  I disagree. No pg always keeps his man in front of him, and no pg ever has. The only way to really judge them is to compare how often they do it compared to others. What if I said thar Ray Allen is a terrible 3 point shooter? Can you really show whether that's true or false without comparing him to other players?

This problem of Rondo was well illustrated during the playoffs, I really don't see any need to contest it.

  On one hand, that wasn't necessarily Rondo at his best. They played every other day without a break, he led the league in minutes per game, and he re-injured his ankle in the Chicago series. On the other hand, he wasn't as bad as people make him out to be. People here were watching his play closely looking for errors. Do that with any player and you'll see flaws in their games.

And yep, you're right about me being able to clarify what I meant... I just don't think that in this instance there was any need to do so because I don't know how anyone can still think of Rondo as a good penetration stopper. And since I consider that one of the most basic and important defensive elements in the perimeter, I can't in good conscience say that Rondo is a really good defender as many are lead to believe.

  Again, though, "good penetration stopper" and "really good defender" are relative terms. You could be saying that Rondo's defensive skills are poor compared to his passing and rebounding skills. You could be saying that Rondo's a poor penetration stopper compared to the better pgs of the 80s. You could be saying that Rondo's not as good as he could be. But you don't seem to be saying that he's poor at it compared to other pgs that are currently in the league, which is what I'd use as a measuring stick.

Well said Tim.  It continually amazes me that so many people have issues with the way Rondo played in the playoffs.  I just attribute it to the fact that it just means the expectations of him have skyrocketed, and that he's reached that superstar level in their eyes.  Otherwise, I think people are reaching way too hard.

[xmuscularghandix]

Top 5 Defensive ratings for 09

1.Dwight Howard
2.Kevin Garnett
3.Lebron James
4.Anderson Verajao
5.Kendrick Perkins

[paintitgreen]

Hmm you do know that part of the Celtics defensive scheme is to allow Rondo to gamble (try to steal) and filter the other PG's to the middle right into their bigs, right?  Just making sure.  With that being said, I'm not sure what games you've been watching because he's definitely good at playing guys straight up.  Clearly there have been plenty of times when other guys get past him, but more often than not he does the job.

Even the top perimeter defenders get burned off the dribble every now and again.  But to say Rondo "is not even close" is laughable.  Just brushing off his being named to the all-defensive second team is equally as laughable.  Out of curiosity, what other PG (contemporary OR historically) is good in your eyes?  Because I can guarantee no matter who you say, they have allowed their man to get to the paint at least once.  It actually happened to them too believe it or not.

I agree with this in part - Rondo is among the best defensive point guards in the NBA. Early in the season last year, I would contend that he was THE best defensive point guard. Much of that can be attributed to the fact that he is allowed to take more risks with the combo of Garnett and Perkins behind him.

That said, I'm not convinced that the Celtics defensive game plan really does call for him to take so many risks going for steals. I have always thought of the defensive plan as being focused on forcing guys to take bad shots. That happens a lot more frequently if you are always disciplined about staying in front of your man. It means fewer steals and blocks, sure, but that's not what the Celtics excel in - the Celtics excel in keeping teams from scoring. Not the same thing.

Now, Rondo can get away with more risk taking with Garnett behind him, but I think he takes more risks than the coaching staff wants him to take. Of course, that's my opinion, yours is just as valid.

[WeMadeIt17]

Our best defender is!!! SCAL!!!! lol all kidding aside KG is our best defender! He can go out and guard anyone at anytime ALA coming back from a strained abdomen and steals it from Telfair to win the game