What's worse, PED's or Recreational Drugs?

[Rondo2287]

I would say anything that you can buy over the counter there is nothing wrong with, once you get into injecting and needles, is when you cross the line.  As BDM said, if its over the counter who cares

[the_Bird]

I would say anything that you can buy over the counter there is nothing wrong with, once you get into injecting and needles, is when you cross the line.  As BDM said, if its over the counter who cares

You're making the assumption that there's nothing wrong with OTC supplements - much of that stuff is barely regulated.  The Feds don't have the authority to regulate supplements the same way that they can regulate drugs; should players therefore get a free pass because of this?

EDIT: The poll is flawed.  You need to separate out different types of recreational drugs, IMHO; big difference between smoking a little pot and getting into harder stuff.  Hell, if they banned players in the NBA for smoking pot, there would be a lot of teams that wouldn't have five players to put in the game, much less a 12-man rotation!

[Rondo2287]

Yes they should, if its over the counter anybody can get it, the playing field is even because anybody can legally do them. 

[bdm860]

I would say anything that you can buy over the counter there is nothing wrong with, once you get into injecting and needles, is when you cross the line.  As BDM said, if its over the counter who cares

You're making the assumption that there's nothing wrong with OTC supplements - much of that stuff is barely regulated.  The Feds don't have the authority to regulate supplements the same way that they can regulate drugs; should players therefore get a free pass because of this?

I guess can you help me out and tell me what's wrong with these supplements?  (Not being difficult or stupid, I really don't know).

[the_Bird]

I would say anything that you can buy over the counter there is nothing wrong with, once you get into injecting and needles, is when you cross the line.  As BDM said, if its over the counter who cares

You're making the assumption that there's nothing wrong with OTC supplements - much of that stuff is barely regulated.  The Feds don't have the authority to regulate supplements the same way that they can regulate drugs; should players therefore get a free pass because of this?

I guess can you help me out and tell me what's wrong with these supplements?  (Not being difficult or stupid, I really don't know).

Well, that's the problem; you don't really know, because they aren't held out to the same standards of testing as phamaceuticals.  Some are probably fine, but you just don't know. 

[Birdbrain]

You guys feel free to call me crazy, but I honestly don't see the big deal with PED's.  Not that I'm all that up to speed on the Rashard Lewis thing, but wasn't it an OTC thing?  Whatever he took, if it was just on the "approved" substance list, no one would care that he's taking it and think he's cheating.

Sure you can take things that enhance your performance, but eating grilled chicken over fried chicken enhances your performance too.
It enhances your performance to drink water or gatorade over coke or pepsi or alcohol.
It enhances your performance to work out.
It enhances your performance to take approved vitamins and protien shakes and all that good stuff.
Everybody does things to enhance their performance, so I guess I don't get why certain legal substances are banned and looked so unfavorably on by the public.

In baseball, if you throw a spitter or pretend to get hit by a pitch that's also intentionally cheating
In basketball, if you pretend you were fouled when you weren't, that's also intentionally cheating.  So why are these things no big deal but taking certain legal health supplements is?  Is LeBron, Kobe, or Paul Pierce acting like they were fouled and arguing the call with the refs even when they KNOW they weren't really fouled but just trying to get the call (or the next call) that different than someone like Palmerio saying he didn't juice.  Both of them were lying in an attempt to cheat, so what's the difference?

Cheating is cheating right?

No not even close actually, IMO.

[bdm860]

You guys feel free to call me crazy, but I honestly don't see the big deal with PED's.  Not that I'm all that up to speed on the Rashard Lewis thing, but wasn't it an OTC thing?  Whatever he took, if it was just on the "approved" substance list, no one would care that he's taking it and think he's cheating.

Sure you can take things that enhance your performance, but eating grilled chicken over fried chicken enhances your performance too.
It enhances your performance to drink water or gatorade over coke or pepsi or alcohol.
It enhances your performance to work out.
It enhances your performance to take approved vitamins and protien shakes and all that good stuff.
Everybody does things to enhance their performance, so I guess I don't get why certain legal substances are banned and looked so unfavorably on by the public.

In baseball, if you throw a spitter or pretend to get hit by a pitch that's also intentionally cheating
In basketball, if you pretend you were fouled when you weren't, that's also intentionally cheating.  So why are these things no big deal but taking certain legal health supplements is?  Is LeBron, Kobe, or Paul Pierce acting like they were fouled and arguing the call with the refs even when they KNOW they weren't really fouled but just trying to get the call (or the next call) that different than someone like Palmerio saying he didn't juice.  Both of them were lying in an attempt to cheat, so what's the difference?

Cheating is cheating right?

No not even close actually, IMO.

Well what's the difference, why do you feel that way?  Help me to understand.

[TBreezy]

Supplements?  Well for example some really popular ones:

Ma Huang / Ephedra (appetite suprresnt and energizers) - may give you a heart attack

Yohimbe (energizer, libido booster) - again may make your heart explode

L-Arginine (amino acid, nitro producer, precursor to HGH) - may cause an outbreak of shingles - especially if you are imuno deficient for any reason (HIV, Stress)

St Johns Wort (anit depressant, stress reliever, MAOI)- (here is the biggy) taken with an SSRI (Zoloft or even herbal Passion Flower) could lead to major issues including death

Tribulus, Damiana, Goat Weed (raises testosterone, frees testosterone) - prolonged use and prolonged high T levels show a strong correlation to prostate cancer.

Contraindications are the big thing - maybe an MD could weigh in.  Dang - you can buy Cigarettes and they are not safe.

Dave Pendel - calls this the "Poison Path", the active study of psycho active (mostly plan life) substances.  His primary pilosophy is don't do it - and if you have to be an expert first; Carlos Castenada - write of the powers of plants and the fear he had of them.  Even subtle powers (recouperating quickly) - can have negative effects on your body if taken long term...

You only have one body and this life is a gift.

[TBreezy]

I guess one other thing I would like to say on the subject is I have heard doctors say in the past

"If you don't believe in steroids, then you don't believe in western medicine".

I am not an MD - but I have had to use topical and internal steroids to deal with thinfgs like eczema and asthma in the past.  Certainly anabolics must have some redeeming medical value (perhaps to an AIDs patient who has lost a ton of weight and strength).

I know that topical steroids will take a toll on your skin if you are on them regularly for a period of time.  Making it less elasitc, and thinner, tearing and bruising easily.  My Mom is a bit of a mess because of her eczema treatments - normally it is ok but if she hits her arm against a wall wrong she may tear her skin of bruise deeply...

[greg683x]

i would also like to add that Creatine has been known to cause kidney failure in some cases if the body isnt properly hydrated.  A lot of these supplements right now we only know short term drawbacks, it could do a lot more damage down the road.  I also guarantee you that most of those substances in GNC are NOT approved by the FDA, so its not like buying tylenol at the grocery store.

[greg683x]

to the guy asking the difference between lieing about being fouled and taking PEDs....

Players have been argueing with refs in sports since the beginning.  Its always been that way, and even if it werent, milking a ref for a couple extra points for whatever doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things.  A player like Brady Anderson hitting 51 homers in a season when he hadnt hit more than 21 his entire career is different.

NBA players and refs going at it has always been part of the game.  Argueing with a ref that would amount to a couple more free throws that you may not deserve is a WHOLE HELL of a lot different than someone juicing and hitting 25-30 more HRs and breaking a record that a man busted his butt to accomplish the legit way 50 years before.  Or how about juicing and hitting 20-30 more HRs that you wouldnt have hit of the course of several years and breaking a record a man worked his entire career to achieve the legit way.  Same goes for pitchers too, im looking at you roger clemens.  Its a disgrace.

thats the difference in my opinion.

[Scalablob990]

i would also like to add that Creatine has been known to cause kidney failure in some cases if the body isnt properly hydrated.  A lot of these supplements right now we only know short term drawbacks, it could do a lot more damage down the road.  I also guarantee you that most of those substances in GNC are NOT approved by the FDA, so its not like buying tylenol at the grocery store.

Hell I bought whey Protein last year and got extremely sick from it. It was like a re-run of when I got my appendix out years ago, I puked everything I had in me for days. Since then I barely even let advil touch me.

[The4Time2Doctor0]

I have ADD and i take amphetamines before i play pick up games and what not.  It makes me a much better player and a better shooter.  But yes, i agree that PED's are much worse.

you're taking PED's you silly fool.

[bdm860]

to the guy asking the difference between lieing about being fouled and taking PEDs....

Players have been argueing with refs in sports since the beginning.  Its always been that way, and even if it werent, milking a ref for a couple extra points for whatever doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things.  A player like Brady Anderson hitting 51 homers in a season when he hadnt hit more than 21 his entire career is different.

NBA players and refs going at it has always been part of the game.  Argueing with a ref that would amount to a couple more free throws that you may not deserve is a WHOLE HELL of a lot different than someone juicing and hitting 25-30 more HRs and breaking a record that a man busted his butt to accomplish the legit way 50 years before.  Or how about juicing and hitting 20-30 more HRs that you wouldnt have hit of the course of several years and breaking a record a man worked his entire career to achieve the legit way.  Same goes for pitchers too, im looking at you roger clemens.  Its a disgrace.

thats the difference in my opinion.

What I hear with that is: is it's ok cheat a little, but not a lot.

Cheating is cheating.  One form isn't better because it's more accepted and been around longer.  It was explained to me like this once: if you steal $5 or steal $1,000 is one more wrong than the other? They're both still stealing and they're both wrong.  It isn't ok to steal $5 because it's just a little amount and doesn't really matter.  Personally I think they're equally as wrong (but if you disagree as I know many of you will, we're going to have to agree to disagree because that's a whole different argument).

One form of cheating is widely accepted while another is condemned which I really don't get.  LeBron scoring a 200 extra points a season is ok, but Brady Anderson hitting an extra 20-30 homeruns is a big deal?  If you want to say it's a little vs a lot, that's not a point I agree with (I mean I agree more than doubling your homerun total is a lot as oppossed to scoring maybe 5% more points per game, but it's all still cheating just the same).  But Lebron or Kobe scoring a few extra points every can determine championships and has a HUGE effect on the whole league.  While Brady Anderson hitting an extra 20-30 homeruns has a more minimal effect on the entire MLB in my opinion.  When Kobe an LeBron start breaking records, can't I we say the same thing?

Still, not to get off into other arguments and side topics, bottom line with me: I still don't see why PED's are so frowned upon and why they are that big of a deal, especially when other forms of cheating are accepted.  But TBreezy (with his list of side effects) did help me understand why leagues would ban them.

[Fafnir]

to the guy asking the difference between lieing about being fouled and taking PEDs....

Players have been argueing with refs in sports since the beginning.  Its always been that way, and even if it werent, milking a ref for a couple extra points for whatever doesnt mean anything in the grand scheme of things.  A player like Brady Anderson hitting 51 homers in a season when he hadnt hit more than 21 his entire career is different.

NBA players and refs going at it has always been part of the game.  Argueing with a ref that would amount to a couple more free throws that you may not deserve is a WHOLE HELL of a lot different than someone juicing and hitting 25-30 more HRs and breaking a record that a man busted his butt to accomplish the legit way 50 years before.  Or how about juicing and hitting 20-30 more HRs that you wouldnt have hit of the course of several years and breaking a record a man worked his entire career to achieve the legit way.  Same goes for pitchers too, im looking at you roger clemens.  Its a disgrace.

thats the difference in my opinion.

What I hear with that is: is it's ok cheat a little, but not a lot.

Cheating is cheating.  One form isn't better because it's more accepted and been around longer.  It was explained to me like this once: if you steal $5 or steal $1,000 is one more wrong than the other? They're both still stealing and they're both wrong.  It isn't ok to steal $5 because it's just a little amount and doesn't really matter.  Personally I think they're equally as wrong (but if you disagree as I know many of you will, we're going to have to agree to disagree because that's a whole different argument).

If I take ten dollars from my brother, its the same as emblezzing $200,000,000 from my company and bankrupting it. Putting many out of work and hurting more people?

I don't buy it. A little cheating isn't okay. But the degree and severity of your actions matter.