Two trades with NO

[ssspence]

NO wants Baby, and to cut salary -- this year and beyond. We want bench versitility. So Danny and Jeff argee to the following:

First, we send Scal, TA and Pruitt for Posey (or Peterson, if necessary -- not as good but one year less on his deal) and Julian Wright:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nbnqh5

NO cuts Pruitt if they like before 8/1 to save money on the lux tax. This deal is a savings this year of $2mil for them, and obviously a big savings for the future by taking long-term money off their hands.

Then, we sign-and-trade Baby for Hilton Armstrong and Devin Brown. I believe under Base Year Comp rules, the number boils down to about 3.5 for Glen, considering Armstrong makes 2.8 and Devin Brown is on the vet min at about 1.1. The Hornets again save this year -- about $500k -- while getting the local guy they want. Overall, they save 2.5 in cap, so around $5mil in lux tax this year. The Cs can throw in some cash if need be.

The net result is this:

Celts get:

Armstrong (back up C)
Posey (we know about him)
Wright (potential to be a great handler and defender at the 3)
Brown (pack-up PG / SG)

NOH gets:

Baby (first bog off the bench)
Scal (fills Posey's role + cap relief)
TA (bench wing + cap relief + potential with change of scenery)
$$$

NO then uses some of that savings to fill out their roster, or only use the Vet Min deals if they're REALLY hemoraging money. Boston gets more talent in the deal, but has to in order to shed salary and give up Baby and take on long-term salary.

[byennie]

NO wants Baby, and to cut salary -- this year and beyond. We want bench versitility. So Danny and Jeff argee to the following:

First, we send Scal, TA and Pruitt for Posey (or Peterson, if necessary -- not as good but one year less on his deal) and Julian Wright:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nbnqh5

NO cuts Pruitt if they like before 8/1 to save money on the lux tax. This deal is a savings this year of $2mil for them, and obviously a big savings for the future by taking long-term money off their hands.

Then, we sign-and-trade Baby for Hilton Armstrong and Devin Brown. I believe under Base Year Comp rules, the number boils down to about 3.5 for Glen, considering Armstrong makes 2.8 and Devin Brown is on the vet min at about 1.1. The Hornets again save this year -- about $500k -- while getting the local guy they want. Overall, they save 2.5 in cap, so aaround $5mil in lux tax this year. The Cs can throw in some cash if need be.

The net result is this:

Celts get:

Armstrong (back up C)
Posey (we know about him)
Wright (potential to be a great handler and defender at the 3)
Brown (pack-up PG / SG)

NOH gets:

Baby (first bog off the bench)
Scal (fills Posey's role + cap relief)
TA (bench wing + cap relief + potential with change of scenery)
$$$

They then use some of that savings to fill out their roster, or only use the Vet Min deals if they're REALLY hemoraging money.

It's gonna be impossible to trade BBD alone in a deal with BYC issues. He would count 50% on Boston's outgoing side, but 100% on NO incoming. It's not just cut in half both ways, which is why BYC is hard to trade.

I don't mind the premise of the trade, though.

[DJ Bento Box]

Explain to me again why so many teams should feel the need (according to Celtic fans)to help out the Celtics by doing a sign and trade deal with them for BBD when they can just sign him outright?

[KG_ended_Bias]

Nobody is going to give away quality players for a bunch of trash. The trade scenarios have to be somewhat realistic.

[ssspence]

Explain to me again why so many teams should feel the need (according to Celtic fans)to help out the Celtics by doing a sign and trade deal with them for BBD when they can just sign him outright?

Happy to: 'Restricted Free Agency' (read: Marcin Gortat).

[byennie]

Nobody is going to give away quality players for a bunch of trash. The trade scenarios have to be somewhat realistic.

I'm not saying NO would do this trade, but they are pretty desperate for cap space. They tried to give away Tyson Chandler, and they would love to get out from under Posey's contract even though he can still play.

[ssspence]

Nobody is going to give away quality players for a bunch of trash. The trade scenarios have to be somewhat realistic.

You mean like trading Chandler to OKC for garbage last year?

I doubt the Hornets books are looking all that 'realistic' these days. Seen their payroll lately? How about their attendance? Trades are often lopsided by salary concerns.

[ssspence]

NO wants Baby, and to cut salary -- this year and beyond. We want bench versitility. So Danny and Jeff argee to the following:

First, we send Scal, TA and Pruitt for Posey (or Peterson, if necessary -- not as good but one year less on his deal) and Julian Wright:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=nbnqh5

NO cuts Pruitt if they like before 8/1 to save money on the lux tax. This deal is a savings this year of $2mil for them, and obviously a big savings for the future by taking long-term money off their hands.

Then, we sign-and-trade Baby for Hilton Armstrong and Devin Brown. I believe under Base Year Comp rules, the number boils down to about 3.5 for Glen, considering Armstrong makes 2.8 and Devin Brown is on the vet min at about 1.1. The Hornets again save this year -- about $500k -- while getting the local guy they want. Overall, they save 2.5 in cap, so aaround $5mil in lux tax this year. The Cs can throw in some cash if need be.

The net result is this:

Celts get:

Armstrong (back up C)
Posey (we know about him)
Wright (potential to be a great handler and defender at the 3)
Brown (pack-up PG / SG)

NOH gets:

Baby (first bog off the bench)
Scal (fills Posey's role + cap relief)
TA (bench wing + cap relief + potential with change of scenery)
$$$

They then use some of that savings to fill out their roster, or only use the Vet Min deals if they're REALLY hemoraging money.

It's gonna be impossible to trade BBD alone in a deal with BYC issues. He would count 50% on Boston's outgoing side, but 100% on NO incoming. It's not just cut in half both ways, which is why BYC is hard to trade.

I don't mind the premise of the trade, though.

Difficult but not impossible, depending on Baby's starting salary. They have Devin Brown's Vet Min salary, which helps. So, for example, if the numbers don't match up well you can move Armstrong into the Posey deal and move Wright into the Baby deal. It can certainly be done.

[DJ Bento Box]

There is a big difference between Gortat and BBD. If you lose a PF who thinks he's a SG and rebounds like one due to a team matching your offer because of RFA it doesn't hurt nearly as much as losing a young, defensive-minded C. Maybe you sign and trade for a guy like Gortat, but BBD? No way.

It just seems like there's a lot of over-estimating what the pieces you have are actually worth. I see TA, Scalabrine, BBD, Giddens and Walker constantly offered up in trade "scenarios" that are completely unrealistic considering what Celtic fans seem to think they should get back in trade.

I haven't heard of too many GM's beating down BBD's door with offers to get him to sign so far.  

[ssspence]

There is a big difference between Gortat and BBD. If you lose a PF who thinks he's a SG and rebounds like one due to a team matching your offer because of RFA it doesn't hurt nearly as much as losing a young, defensive-minded C. Maybe you sign and trade for a guy like Gortat, but BBD? No way.

It just seems like there's a lot of over-estimating what the pieces you have are actually worth. I see TA, Scalabrine, BBD, Giddens and Walker constantly offered up in trade "scenarios" that are completely unrealistic considering what Celtic fans seem to think they should get back in trade.

I haven't heard of too many GM's beating down BBD's door with offers to get him to sign so far.  

you asked me to explain why they couldn't just sign him outright. the answer is: because they can't just sign him outright. he's a restricted free agent. this means the celtics can match if they like. this means they ....... can't just sign him outright.

meanwhile, RFA is the root of the dilemma on your other point: offers. Marvin Williams and David Lee and Nate Robinson and Baby can all play. why teams don't sign them to offer sheets is based on fear of tyoing up their money only to have the opposing team match. this is the reason Millsap got such a frontloaded offer -- so Utah might struggle to match. it still won't happen, just like Gortat. Does anyone really think the Cs wouldn't match a 3.5mil offer from Detriot?

in related news, marc stein just read my mind:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=Chatter-090714

"The early sense I get is that the Mavericks have little interest in using their midlevel exception -- which is back in their possession after Orlando confirmed its intention to match a five-year, $34 million offer to Gortat -- to play the restricted free-agent game again with Boston's Glen Davis.

Detroit, by contrast, really covets Big Baby, whose modest $711,517 salary last season didn't stop him from stepping in admirably for the injured Kevin Garnett in the playoffs. The Pistons' problem is that their offer can start in only the $3 million range compared with $5.9 million in Dallas' case, raising the obvious fear that the rival Celtics could tie up the Pistons' money for seven days and then match.

The Hornets, meanwhile, haven't abandoned their Big Baby interest, but New Orleans has to shed some salary before it can do anything significant or construct a sign-and-trade deal that the Celtics would accept. The team considered most likely to trade for Tyson Chandler -- Phoenix -- just completed a buyout with Ben Wallace that rips up the contract New Orleans was hoping to score in exchange for Chandler to enable the Hornets to finally join this summer's action."

[BballTim]

Explain to me again why so many teams should feel the need (according to Celtic fans)to help out the Celtics by doing a sign and trade deal with them for BBD when they can just sign him outright?

  Budget. If a team doesn't want to spnd more than they already are then they trade out as much salary as they bring in. Plus, as was mentioned, we could always match their offer.

[BballTim]

There is a big difference between Gortat and BBD. If you lose a PF who thinks he's a SG and rebounds like one due to a team matching your offer because of RFA it doesn't hurt nearly as much as losing a young, defensive-minded C. Maybe you sign and trade for a guy like Gortat, but BBD? No way.

It just seems like there's a lot of over-estimating what the pieces you have are actually worth. I see TA, Scalabrine, BBD, Giddens and Walker constantly offered up in trade "scenarios" that are completely unrealistic considering what Celtic fans seem to think they should get back in trade.

  You need to look at the contracts, not just the talent going in and out. Most of the people who propose trading Tony and Scal know that other teams aren't trying to get players like that. Most of those trades are for players with longer contracts where the team making the trade with us saves big money in the future.

[DJ Bento Box]

Maybe I'm being too literal. What I meant by signing him "outright" was that if a team wants him bad enough, they can offer up whatever they have available (MLE in some instances, 3.5 in others) and go from there. It's been pretty obvious up to this point that teams aren't putting the value or interest on BBD that Celtic fans seem to think should be there and if you lose him to Boston matching on the RFA, there are plenty of stopgap-type players who would be available.

I just don't see Boston matching a team offering BBD $3.5 plus or their MLE when it's obvious the C's need to spend their money elsewhere (veteran back-up PG and SF) so a team making that kind of offer would essentially be signing him "outright" (although they'd have to sweat out that 10 day waiting period the C's would have) because of the difficulty Boston would have in justifying matching it. 

[ssspence]

Maybe I'm being too literal. What I meant by signing him "outright" was that if a team wants him bad enough, they can offer up whatever they have available (MLE in some instances, 3.5 in others) and go from there. It's been pretty obvious up to this point that teams aren't putting the value or interest on BBD that Celtic fans seem to think should be there and if you lose him to Boston matching on the RFA, there are plenty of stopgap-type players who would be available.

I just don't see Boston matching a team offering BBD $3.5 plus or their MLE when it's obvious the C's need to spend their money elsewhere (veteran back-up PG and SF) so a team making that kind of offer would essentially be signing him "outright" (although they'd have to sweat out that 10 day waiting period the C's would have) because of the difficulty Boston would have in justifying matching it. 

how is it obvious? wait a minute ---- are you Baby's agent?!?

read up a little on NOH. They're not going to make a wild offer for any RFA in order to try to scare off the current team. That's Cuban's job, and he just lost that war while the team he tried to scare signed his best young big man as he waited...

[BballTim]

Maybe I'm being too literal. What I meant by signing him "outright" was that if a team wants him bad enough, they can offer up whatever they have available (MLE in some instances, 3.5 in others) and go from there. It's been pretty obvious up to this point that teams aren't putting the value or interest on BBD that Celtic fans seem to think should be there and if you lose him to Boston matching on the RFA, there are plenty of stopgap-type players who would be available.

I just don't see Boston matching a team offering BBD $3.5 plus or their MLE when it's obvious the C's need to spend their money elsewhere (veteran back-up PG and SF) so a team making that kind of offer would essentially be signing him "outright" (although they'd have to sweat out that 10 day waiting period the C's would have) because of the difficulty Boston would have in justifying matching it. 

  Teams have budgets. Many teams won't use the MLE because they don't want to spend the money. And if Baby leaves I'd say another backup big is our biggest need, not another wing or pg. Rasheed can't be our only backup for 2 spots.