You Don't Need A Star PG To Win A Championship

[winsomme]

let's also remember a couple of things about those Rockets Title teams in 94 and 95.

First, Kenny Smith was better than serviceable.....

but more than that (and as much as I love Dream) those two Titles most likely are not won if Jordan hadn't taken his baseball hiatus...

Good point; however, Jordan was very lucky to not face many dominant big men in his title runs.  All he really ever had to face was an undersized Alonzo Mourning on an inferior Miami team, the choke-artist Patrick Ewing, and a very young Shaq.  Out of the West, he never had to face dominant centers like Hakeem and the Admiral (none of the teams the Bulls ever faced out of the West had a dominant center).  Given the Bulls weak interior defense (and while you can praise Rodman, he was way too small to guard dominant centers), I often wonder how the Bulls would have faired against Hakeem, or if they had to play 5 years later against the twin Towers of Robinson and Duncan or against Shaq when he made it to LA.  

Part of me thinks that Jordan got very lucky in the matchups he had and the era that he played in.  

I don't know Jon. The big guys in the Jordan era were some of the best ever. Their teams just weren't consistently good.

and they did beat the Pistons no slouch defensively...

[bdm860]

I just posted about this in another thread.  And it's BS.  You could say that about any position.  You could say that you don't need a star shooting guard and cite the Bird-led Celtics in the '80s as an example (how do you like that Danny Ainge?).  You could say you don't need a dominant big man and cite the Bulls as an example of that.  You could say you don't need a dominant SF and cite the last three Detroit champions, the Olajuwon Rocket teams, and all three incarnations of the Spurs' title teams. 

You could also cite the fact that all three of Bird's championship teams (two of which Ainge played on) had either Hall of Fame or should-be-Hall-of-Fame PGs in Tiny Archibald and Dennis Johnson.  Let's also not forget Tony Parker's impact on the Spurs their past two titles or the impact of strong point guards on Detroit's championship ways in the form of Isaiah Thomas and Chauncey Billups.  Let's also not forget most of Celtic history as even before Bird they were piloted by greats like Cousy, K.C. Jones, and JoJo White. 

So, yes, you don't need a start PG to win a title, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have one.  In many cases, they can be integral to winning it all.   

I definitely agree with Jon on this. 
And you can look at it like this, if you taken Jordan, arguarbly the greatest player ever, and certainly the greatest in the 90's by a wide margin, out of the equation, you very likely have superstar PG's Stockton winning 2 rings, and Payton winning one, Magic winning a 6th, and Kevin Johnson winning one.  If you take Jordan out of the equation, the argument isn't as strong (although no guarantee those guys win, but still very arguable).

[Jon]

let's also remember a couple of things about those Rockets Title teams in 94 and 95.

First, Kenny Smith was better than serviceable.....

but more than that (and as much as I love Dream) those two Titles most likely are not won if Jordan hadn't taken his baseball hiatus...

Good point; however, Jordan was very lucky to not face many dominant big men in his title runs.  All he really ever had to face was an undersized Alonzo Mourning on an inferior Miami team, the choke-artist Patrick Ewing, and a very young Shaq.  Out of the West, he never had to face dominant centers like Hakeem and the Admiral (none of the teams the Bulls ever faced out of the West had a dominant center).  Given the Bulls weak interior defense (and while you can praise Rodman, he was way too small to guard dominant centers), I often wonder how the Bulls would have faired against Hakeem, or if they had to play 5 years later against the twin Towers of Robinson and Duncan or against Shaq when he made it to LA.  

Part of me thinks that Jordan got very lucky in the matchups he had and the era that he played in.  

I don't know Jon. The big guys in the Jordan era were some of the best ever. Their teams just weren't consistently good.

and they did beat the Pistons no slouch defensively...

True.  But they were lucky to face the Kareem-less Lakers for their first title, the Drexler-led Blazers for their second, the Barkley-led Suns for their third, the Kemp/Payton Sonics for their 4th, and the Stockton/Malone Jazz for their fifth and sixth.  During those 6 Finals appearances they had to face the following big man immortals at center respectively: Vlade Divac, Kevin Duckworth, Mark West, Ervin Johnson, and Greg Ostertag.  

I'm not suggesting the Bulls weren't great, but one thing they didn't have (particularly for the last 3 titles) was good interior defense.  As great as Jordan was, what would he have done had they faced the Lakers three-peat team and Jordan was defended by Kobe and Shaq was guarded by Luc Longley?  What would the likes of Longley and the 6-8 220 lbs Rodman had done had they had to guard the Twin Towers of Robinson and Duncan?  

Again, the Bulls were great, but they had interior defense issues that weren't exploited as much as they could have been due to some fortunate matchups and because of the era they played in.  

[wdleehi]

Teams don't need it, but it certainly will help.

[bdm860]

let's also remember a couple of things about those Rockets Title teams in 94 and 95.

First, Kenny Smith was better than serviceable.....

but more than that (and as much as I love Dream) those two Titles most likely are not won if Jordan hadn't taken his baseball hiatus...

Good point; however, Jordan was very lucky to not face many dominant big men in his title runs.  All he really ever had to face was an undersized Alonzo Mourning on an inferior Miami team, the choke-artist Patrick Ewing, and a very young Shaq.  Out of the West, he never had to face dominant centers like Hakeem and the Admiral (none of the teams the Bulls ever faced out of the West had a dominant center).  Given the Bulls weak interior defense (and while you can praise Rodman, he was way too small to guard dominant centers), I often wonder how the Bulls would have faired against Hakeem, or if they had to play 5 years later against the twin Towers of Robinson and Duncan or against Shaq when he made it to LA. 

Part of me thinks that Jordan got very lucky in the matchups he had and the era that he played in. 

I think you're being a little harsh, all 3 of those guys are/will be HOFers, Ewing was first ballot, Shaq is definitely first ballot, and Mourning I think will definitely get in.

Shaq had already led a team to the Finals, so  I don't think saying he was young is valid argument.

The Bulls beat teams with All Star centers every single year.  Ewing, Mourning, and Shaq were all definitely the best players on their teams too.  Daugherty arguably was.

In '91 the Bulls went through Ewing (All Star that year)
In '92 the Bulls went through  Daugherty and Ewing (both All Stars that year)
In '93 the Bulls went through Daugherty and Ewing (both All Stars that year)
In '96 the Bulls went through Mourning, Ewing, and (all All Stars that year)
In '97 the Bulls went through Mourning and Mutombo (another likely first ballot HOFer) (both All Stars that year)
In '98 the Bulls went through Rik Smits and Jayson Williams (both All Star centers that year)

Just because they didn't really face a good Center in the FInals you can't throw out all the teams they went through in the East.  Although I do think if the Bulls were together in 94, 95, and 99 those would have been some great matchups in the Finals.

[wdleehi]

Not to mention the Bulls had a pretty good C the 1st three titles with Cartright.


He wasn't an all-star, but a solid defender, rebounder and 4th/5th option on offense.

[Jon]

let's also remember a couple of things about those Rockets Title teams in 94 and 95.

First, Kenny Smith was better than serviceable.....

but more than that (and as much as I love Dream) those two Titles most likely are not won if Jordan hadn't taken his baseball hiatus...

Good point; however, Jordan was very lucky to not face many dominant big men in his title runs.  All he really ever had to face was an undersized Alonzo Mourning on an inferior Miami team, the choke-artist Patrick Ewing, and a very young Shaq.  Out of the West, he never had to face dominant centers like Hakeem and the Admiral (none of the teams the Bulls ever faced out of the West had a dominant center).  Given the Bulls weak interior defense (and while you can praise Rodman, he was way too small to guard dominant centers), I often wonder how the Bulls would have faired against Hakeem, or if they had to play 5 years later against the twin Towers of Robinson and Duncan or against Shaq when he made it to LA. 

Part of me thinks that Jordan got very lucky in the matchups he had and the era that he played in. 

I think you're being a little harsh, all 3 of those guys are/will be HOFers, Ewing was first ballot, Shaq is definitely first ballot, and Mourning I think will definitely get in.

Shaq had already led a team to the Finals, so  I don't think saying he was young is valid argument.

The Bulls beat teams with All Star centers every single year.  Ewing, Mourning, and Shaq were all definitely the best players on their teams too.  Daugherty arguably was.

In '91 the Bulls went through Ewing (All Star that year)
In '92 the Bulls went through  Daugherty and Ewing (both All Stars that year)
In '93 the Bulls went through Daugherty and Ewing (both All Stars that year)
In '96 the Bulls went through Mourning, Ewing, and (all All Stars that year)
In '97 the Bulls went through Mourning and Mutombo (another likely first ballot HOFer) (both All Stars that year)
In '98 the Bulls went through Rik Smits and Jayson Williams (both All Star centers that year)

Just because they didn't really face a good Center in the FInals you can't throw out all the teams they went through in the East.  Although I do think if the Bulls were together in 94, 95, and 99 those would have been some great matchups in the Finals.

I'm not disregarding them entire.  I'm simply saying that Ewing was a choke-artist, Mourning is a borderline Hall of Famer at best who had a pretty poor surrounding cast, and that Shaq hadn't matured into the beast he'd around 2000.  To me, the four best big men of the past 20 years have been Shaq, Duncan, Olajuwon and Robinson.  Jordan managed to dodge three of them entirely and he missed Shaq in his prime.  Had Jordan been born a few years earlier or a few years later, I think he may have had a tougher time with things.

As for Rik Smits and Jayson Williams, I think that fact that both were All Stars in 1998 proves just how bad the state of big men in the East was back then. 

[ToppersBsktball10]

Yeah but these teams had Kobe and Gasol
Jordan and Pippen
Wade and Shaq
Olajuwon
Kobe and Shaq

[Casperian]

I´d say you don`t need a "pass-first" PG.

The list of pass-first PG`s who won a championship is very, very short, and is probably related to the fact that the most storied franchise in the history of the NBA didn`t have a top pass-first PG in decades.

Cousy
Magic
...who else?

That said, a look at the all-time championship PG´s doesn`t account for rule changes. which mostly benefit shorter and quicker players, or talent around the top pass-first PG´s of their respective eras. Still interesting that this list is so short, imo.

[Jon]

I´d say you don`t need a "pass-first" PG.

The list of pass-first PG`s who won a championship is very, very short, and is probably related to the fact that the most storied franchise in the history of the NBA didn`t have a top pass-first PG in decades.

Cousy
Magic
...who else?

That said, a look at the all-time championship PG´s doesn`t account for rule changes. which mostly benefit shorter and quicker players, or talent around the top pass-first PG´s of their respective eras. Still interesting that this list is so short, imo.

While I wouldn't put DJ in the same category as Cousy and Magic in terms of playmakers, he certainly was a Hall of Fame caliber PG who wasn't looking for his own shot first. 

On a much lesser level, Avery Johnson was a pretty good playmaker who didn't really look for his own shot on the Spurs first championship team. 

[Casperian]

I´d say you don`t need a "pass-first" PG.

The list of pass-first PG`s who won a championship is very, very short, and is probably related to the fact that the most storied franchise in the history of the NBA didn`t have a top pass-first PG in decades.

Cousy
Magic
...who else?

That said, a look at the all-time championship PG´s doesn`t account for rule changes. which mostly benefit shorter and quicker players, or talent around the top pass-first PG´s of their respective eras. Still interesting that this list is so short, imo.

While I wouldn't put DJ in the same category as Cousy and Magic in terms of playmakers, he certainly was a Hall of Fame caliber PG who wasn't looking for his own shot first. 

On a much lesser level, Avery Johnson was a pretty good playmaker who didn't really look for his own shot on the Spurs first championship team. 

DJ was a stud on defense, which was his main contribution to the 80ies Celtics. He certainly wasn´t a playmaker like Cousy or Magic.

And Avery Johnson wasn´t an important player on that Spurs team, at least not on the Robinson/Duncan level, although he probably belongs on the list..

[Jon]

I´d say you don`t need a "pass-first" PG.

The list of pass-first PG`s who won a championship is very, very short, and is probably related to the fact that the most storied franchise in the history of the NBA didn`t have a top pass-first PG in decades.

Cousy
Magic
...who else?

That said, a look at the all-time championship PG´s doesn`t account for rule changes. which mostly benefit shorter and quicker players, or talent around the top pass-first PG´s of their respective eras. Still interesting that this list is so short, imo.

While I wouldn't put DJ in the same category as Cousy and Magic in terms of playmakers, he certainly was a Hall of Fame caliber PG who wasn't looking for his own shot first. 

On a much lesser level, Avery Johnson was a pretty good playmaker who didn't really look for his own shot on the Spurs first championship team. 

DJ was a stud on defense, which was his main contribution to the 80ies Celtics. He certainly wasn´t a playmaker like Cousy or Magic.

And Avery Johnson wasn´t an important player on that Spurs team, at least not on the Robinson/Duncan level, although he probably belongs on the list..

I agree with your general premise.  I think the championship formula is really just to have the best team possible on the floor.  Because unlike college basketball and football where they have 1 game and you're out playoff systems, basketball does the best of 7 and the best team usually wins.  I think looking over the past 60 years of the NBA just goes to prove that there are many ways to positionally construct a dominant team, but those teams that construct a dominant teams do very, very well. 

[bleedinggreen34]

As long as you have a serviceable PG you can win the championship. Just take a look at the past 20 years ......


LAL 2009 =Derek Fisher
Mia 2006 = Jason Williams
LAL 00-02 = Derek Fisher
CHI 96-98 = Ron Harper
HOU 93-95 = Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell
CHI  90-93 = BJ Armstrong, John Paxon


This make me feel more comfortable trading Rondo, especially if we can get a package like Gay and Conley for Rondo.

LA had Kobe, Miami had Wade, Houston had Olajuwon & Chicago, of course had Jordan.

The Celts team needs a penetrating PG. 

- Ray is not great at creating his own shot, especially as his age increases, he will rely more and more on getting the ball off of dribble penetration.

- KG is not a post threat, he thrives at spotting up and cashing in on Rondo's penetration. 

- Pierce can score at will and create his own shot, but the offense becomes stagnant & predictable when it runs through him, and the team will not win a championship with him as the primary catalyst on offense.

In short, this team would not be that good without Rondo, or a comparable playmaker.  If Doc has a problem w/ Rondo's attitude, they better work it out, b/c we aren't putting up another banner with the New Big 3 without a drive-and-dish PG.

[vagrantwade]

As long as you have a serviceable PG you can win the championship. Just take a look at the past 20 years ......


LAL 2009 =Derek Fisher
Mia 2006 = Jason Williams
LAL 00-02 = Derek Fisher
CHI 96-98 = Ron Harper
HOU 93-95 = Kenny Smith, Sam Cassell
CHI  90-93 = BJ Armstrong, John Paxon


This make me feel more comfortable trading Rondo, especially if we can get a package like Gay and Conley for Rondo.

You can add the 07-08 Celtics to that list.

[BASS_THUMPER]

you need a solid center and power forward off the bench to win a ring

nuthin else matters