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interesting Hollinger article
« on: June 18, 2009, 01:05:46 PM »

Offline ssspence

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he often annoys me (and everyone), but his database of college prospects turned pro is pretty cool, and the rankings for this year point to some interesting opportunities.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=DraftRater-090618

1) sam young grades really poorly. i like his game for the Cs but maybe he won't pan out;

2) danny green grades really well -- i've liked his as as sleeper for the early 2nd round where we might just buy a pick, or maybe Minnesota's late first that went over in the KG trade;

3)leo lyons, aaron jackson and paul delaney could be around when we pick #58.
Mike

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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 01:10:02 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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could you do me a favor and quote more of the article?  I'm not an insider so I can't see any of the bulk of the article
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 01:13:03 PM »

Offline ssspence

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Sure:

The truth about analytical methods is that once in a while you'll get a result that flies in the face of the conventional wisdom. When that happens, it means one of two things: (1) that the analytics saw something that everybody else couldn't see, or (2) that everybody else saw something the analytics couldn't see.

And in the case of two particular players in this year's NBA draft, it will be very interesting to find out the answer.

The draft is Thursday, June 25, and now that we know who's in and who's out, it's time to unveil this year's Draft Rater -- a statistical projection of the top NBA prospects coming out of the college ranks.


To review for the uninitiated, the Draft Rater looks at a player's college production in a variety of metrics and a few other salient facts (such as his height, birth date and years of college experience), and from that projects what a player's Player Efficiency Rating will be when he reaches his peak.

The basic idea is to use the NBA's past to predict its future. The Draft Rater looks back at prospects from past drafts and then, using regression analysis, identifies which attributes were determinants of pro success and which weren't. My database of college players goes back to 2002, which is still a bit limited, but with each year the rater is getting smarter because it has more information to work with -- not only an extra year of drafts, but an extra year of pro seasons from each of the prospects.

This year, several subtle changes helped reduce the error rate when back-tested on previous drafts. First, I ran a separate regression for each of the three position categories -- point guards, wings and bigs -- something that wasn't really feasible when I started doing this. But now that the pool of prospects is large enough, this method has produced greater accuracy.

Second, instead of tying the projection to a player's third-year PER, I used a more general descriptor of what his peak value was -- allowing me to minimize the impact of fluke seasons and better adjust for some players who entered the league young and didn't max out until their fourth or fifth season.

Using those changes, I was able to reduce the standard error in the projections from last year's 4.0 to this year's 2.8. This means nothing to 98 percent of you, but the number geeks in the crowd will recognize that this is still quite large -- as you might expect when you're trying to project what a 19-year-old will do when he's 25. Nonetheless, it does represent a significant improvement from a year ago.

The one area where the method still appears to struggle is with one-and-done freshmen, and this speaks to a more general problem: Information is the key to making this thing work, and the more information we have, the better. For players who leave after their first year, the picture is often incomplete, whether we're using a statistical model or traditional scouting.

I bring this up because last year, in particular, was a rough one for the projection system. First, it was an unusual rookie class in general because nearly every player taken in the first round was at least somewhat productive; generally, a draft will have 10 to 12 impactful players and the rest will be filler, but this past season blew that standard away.

Moreover, a number of those players played only one college season, and while the rater had an accurate view of a few (such as Kevin Love and Michael Beasley), it missed the boat on some who performed extremely well (including Derrick Rose to an extent, and O.J Mayo, Anthony Randolph and Eric Gordon). Gordon is perhaps easier to understand because he was playing hurt at Indiana and his primary skill (shooting) didn't show through statistically, but that doesn't excuse the others.

One important thing to point out is that the Draft Rater is rating "pro potential," which is sometimes different from "pro performance," depending on the professionalism and work ethic of the player involved. In other words, the fact that Michael Sweetney and Shawne Williams rated very highly in previous seasons isn't necessarily a [dang]ation of the system. Rather, their off-court habits are the type of thing every general manager has to take into account when evaluating players, and something that is usually invisible when looking at their college performance.

That said, before last season the Draft Rater had performed extremely well.

From 2002 to 2007, there were 15 players who were (a) among the first 10 collegians drafted and (b) excluded from the top 12 by the Draft Rater. In other words, these were the college players the Draft Rater thought were drafted too high. Of those 15, not one has played in an All-Star Game. The only two who have started a significant number of games over the long term have been Kirk Hinrich (who was 13th in the Draft Rater in 2003) and Charlie Villanueva.

Who were the other 13 top-10 picks not favored by the Draft Rater? Spencer Hawes, Acie Law, Fred Jones, Melvin Ely, Marcus Haislip, Fred Jones, Jarvis Hayes, Rafael Araujo, Ike Diogu, Channing Frye, Randy Foye, J.J. Redick and Patrick O'Bryant.

In other words, when the Draft Rater has suggested avoiding a player, that's turned out to be good advice.

And the Draft Rater has also spotted some of the biggest steals in recent years:

• Carlos Boozer was the 26th collegian taken in 2002; Draft Rater had him second.

• Josh Howard was 17th in 2003; Draft Rater had him fifth.

• Danny Granger was the 13th collegian in 2005; Draft Rater had him third.

• Rajon Rondo was the 16th collegian taken in 2006, but Draft Rater had him second.

• Rodney Stuckey was the 14th collegian chosen in 2007; Draft Rater had him fifth.

• And last year, two players the Draft Rater had rated much higher than others did, Mario Chalmers and George Hill, had productive rookie seasons.

So, most of the time, when the Draft Rater puts a player in the top five, there's a good reason.

All of which leads us to 2009, and whom the Draft Rater likes and doesn't like.

This year, the Draft Rater is closer to the general draft consensus than usual, with two glaring exceptions that I referenced above.

Let's get to them:


The pleasant surprise: Ty Lawson

There are two players who are neck-and-neck for the top spot in this year's Draft Rater. You could easily guess that one of them is Blake Griffin, but most folks never would have guessed that the other is Lawson.

Lawson, who is coming off an electric performance leading North Carolina to the championship, grades out highly for several reasons: Though he's short for a point guard, his shooting numbers (47.1 percent on 3-pointers), strong assist rate and microscopic turnover ratio (9.1, first among point guard prospects) all point to him as an NBA keeper.

The Draft Rater puts Lawson slightly ahead of Griffin for first, but this doesn't mean a team should take Lawson first -- the standard error in the projections for point guards is higher than it is for big men, which means random noise could be putting Lawson ahead just as easily as court performance. If the consensus is that Griffin is the better player, I don't think Lawson's statistical record alone is strong enough evidence to refute it. Additionally, we've heard questions about Lawson's work ethic and injuries.

But the rating is emphatic enough for me to say Lawson should be at the top of the college point guard ladder, ahead of Jonny Flynn, Jrue Holiday, Jeff Teague and Co. (If you're wondering about Ricky Rubio, I'll have more on him next week.)


The unpleasant surprise: DeMar DeRozan

I'd be hard-pressed to name a potential high lottery pick through the years that the Draft Rater has been less excited about. I rated 90 prospects for this draft, and DeRozan ranked 54th among them. Two of his teammates -- Daniel Hackett and Taj Gibson -- outranked him, as did assorted other non-entities like Kevin Rogers, Chinemelu Elonu and Ben Woodside. I'll wait here while you Google them.

Why? Because there really isn't anything in DeRozan's statistical profile that makes you think "NBA star." He rarely took or made 3-pointers and he had a strongly negative pure point rating, which are two powerful indicators for a wing player, and his numbers in other areas were unimpressive, too. In particular, he was a bad free-throw shooter, which indicates that his outside shot might not ever be a strong suit.

Some scouts I have talked to have compared DeRozan to Rudy Gay in terms of being an NBA athlete but having a questionable motor, but that comparison falls flat, according to the Draft Rater: Gay was the top-rated player in his draft class, while DeRozan is nowhere close. And while he's supposed to be a great athlete, he didn't show it on the court often enough: His rebound, block and steal totals were all very ordinary.

As I mentioned above, one-and-done players sometimes fool the system -- they're the youngest, least experienced guys in the pool, and, thus, a major factor is how much they improve post-draft rather than just how good they are pre-draft.

Nonetheless, I'd back away from DeRozan if the 12 relatively safe guys at the top of the Draft Rater are still on the board.

Speaking of which, let's take a look at the collegians for 2009.


Rankings: The Top 12

Top 12-Rated Collegians For 2009
Player School Draft Rater
1. Ty Lawson North Carolina 16.34
2. Blake Griffin Oklahoma 16.21
3. Tyreke Evans Memphis 15.02
4. Austin Daye Gonzaga 14.24
5. Stephen Curry Davidson 14.18
6. Nick Calathes Florida 13.66
7. DeJuan Blair Pittsburgh 13.56
8. Danny Green North Carolina 13.28
9. Jonny Flynn Syracuse 12.99
10. James Harden Arizona St. 12.97
11. Hasheem Thabeet Connecticut 12.90
12. Earl Clark Louisville 12.88


For starters, let's talk about two of the players who play multiple positions -- this matters now that we're rating players in part based on position.

Stephen Curry graded out at 14.18 as a wing, but only 12.86 a point guard. Either way it puts him in the top dozen players, but by this rating he's a much better prospect if he's able to defend against wings.

The difference for Earl Clark was less dramatic, but he rated slightly better as a wing than as a big man (12.14), which would have dropped him from 12th to 15th.

A couple other names on here are likely to raise eyebrows:

Austin Daye may not have had a great season, but the Draft Rater looks favorably upon a 6-11 small forward who can shoot (assuming he can play the 3 in the NBA). His numbers were strongest in the categories that project best to the pros, including 42.9 percent on 3s and 2.1 blocks per game, which is why he moves all the way up to No. 4 on this list.

Nick Calathes is under contract in Greece but still will be draft-eligible, and he rates higher than the hot point guards most teams are discussing in the top 15. Though knocked for his athleticism, he had high rates of rebounds and steals and a strong 2-point shooting percentage. Teams in luxury tax trouble should look particularly hard at him since he can be stashed in Europe for a year or so.

Danny Green is the other surprise on this list. He's rated highly every year I've done this, so seeing him doesn't shock me anymore, but he's received little attention nationally. Still, he's a great shooter who can defend and he rates as the third-best wing after Daye and Tyreke Evans.


Rankings: 13 To 25




Collegians: No. 13 through 25
Player School Draft Rater
13. Jrue Holiday UCLA 12.73
14. Jeff Teague Wake Forest 12.50
15. Gerald Henderson Duke 12.17
16. Paul Delaney UAB 11.85
17. Aaron Jackson Duquesne 11.83
18. Darren Collison UCLA 11.80
19. Terrence Williams Louisville 11.80
20. Leo Lyons Missouri 11.53
21. Eric Maynor VCU 11.35
22. John Bryant  Santa Clara 11.30
23. DeMarre Carroll Missouri 11.18
24. Tyler Hansbrough North Carolina 11.11
25. Wayne Ellington North Carolina 11.04


This part of the list is an interesting mishmash of potential sleepers and potential busts. In general, players in this range have some kind of NBA career but can always count on getting some quality time with the family during All-Star Weekend.

We're awash in point guards in this draft and the six of the top nine names in this section play the position. The lesson is this: If you're in the market for a point guard, one will fall to you and they're more or less the same after the first couple.

Down at No. 13, Holiday is a bit of a surprise -- given that he's projected to go higher -- but he has the two characteristics that produce the greatest error rate in the Draft Rater: he's a point guard and he's played only one year. In other words, his real value might be much higher or much lower, and since the consensus is much higher, it wouldn't bother me to use a top-8 pick on him.

Delaney and Jackson are second-round sleepers at the point, but since projections for point guards are a bit more volatile, perhaps they shouldn't really be this high. The other "who's he?" on the list, Bryant, is a 6-11, 275-pound center from Santa Clara who could have a fine 10-year career as a third center in the Greg Kite/Aaron Gray mold.


Rankings: Potential Disappointments




Collegians: Other Notables
Player School Draft Rater
26. Jordan Hill Arizona 10.97
28. B.J. Mullens Ohio State 10.81
30. James Johnson Wake Forest 10.63
31. Chase Budinger Arizona 10.51
45. Derrick Brown Xavier 9.55
48. DaJuan Summers  Georgetown 9.38
51. Jodie Meeks Kentucky 9.35
52. Sam Young Pitt 9.34
54. DeMar DeRozan USC 9.26
62. Toney Douglas  Florida St. 8.56
68. Patrick Mills St. Mary's 8.36
83. Jack McClinton Miami 6.64


And here's where we get the players the Draft Rater is down on.

Several potential first-round picks don't pass muster here, with short 2-guards in particular bearing the brunt of the Draft Rater's wrath -- Jack McClinton, Patrick Mills and Toney Douglas were the three lowest-rated "name" prospects, and Jodie Meeks didn't fare a whole lot better.

The other big surprise down here is Jordan Hill, who could go as high as No. 4 but rates 26th in the Draft Rater. Hill had solid rebounding and scoring numbers, but his percentages weren't off the charts and his poor assist and turnover numbers were a red flag. Though one might think that ball-handling categories wouldn't matter for a power forward, apparently they do -- pure point rating (a measure of how a player passes and handles the ball) is a pretty strong success indicator for frontcourt players, and only four prospects rated worse than Hill.

One of those players was Mullens, who was the absolute worst at -2.85. Everyone concedes he's a project, so perhaps it's not such a big surprise to see him down this low. But the Draft Rater is saying that maybe even the middle of the first round is too high to be taking the risk on him.

Pitt's Sam Young also graded out extremely poorly. He had the worst pure point rating of any wing player, and the other thing that hurt him is that he's one of the oldest prospects in the pool. How old? He's 19 days older than six-year vet Darko Milicic and a full half-decade older than Jrue Holiday.
Mike

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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 01:21:28 PM »

Offline Kwhit10

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This prospectus by John is probably what I'm most interested in that he does.

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 02:27:18 PM »

Offline Smitty77

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Guys,

Demarre Carroll is #23.  I started a thread about this guy and the fact he is dropping like a rock due to his liver condition. 

Smitty77

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 03:54:39 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Sounds to me like if it were possible to get a pick at the end of the first round or early 2nd round and draft one of those guys in the first group, we ought to try it.

DeJuan Blair, Austin Daye, Danny Green, Nick Calathes

Are all guys who could be late 1st round early 2nd and who are looked upon favorably by the DraftRater.

Definitely an interesting article.  Also gives me more faith in Danny's belief in Tyreke Evans, though I'm convinced now we're definitely not going to try to get him.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 04:24:07 PM »

Offline Brendan

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Where was BC's Rice rated? I recall Hollinger's system liked him in the past.

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2009, 04:35:18 PM »

Offline jdpapa3

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I just can't put a lot into this rating system. The results are simply too varied. Last year's results look putrid. Derrick Rose 7th, Joe Alexander 3rd, and left out guys like Mayo, westbrook, Brook Lopez, and E Gordon.

The best thing it seems to do is find the legit guys from the small conferences like George Hill, Rodney Stuckey, Delonte(don't consider the A10 that big), and Dwyane Wade (when Quette was in the small time), Granger.


I just have trouble putting stock into a rating system that rated Shawne Williams ahead of Brandon Roy.

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2009, 04:57:01 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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Where was BC's Rice rated? I recall Hollinger's system liked him in the past.

Apparently he wasn't in the top 2 groups but not in the very bottom group, or else he just wasn't listed in the article because there's a good chance he'll go undrafted.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

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- Doc Rivers

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2009, 05:34:11 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I've been hoping we could buy a high 2nd rd pick to steal Green - I sincerely think he could contribute next year backing up Pierce.  His only issue is he's kind of a goof-off, not a bad attitude but just carefree. 

Of course, Walker and Giddens on the squad probably ensures we don't go that route, but this model gives a little evidence that he could be a steal.

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2009, 02:02:17 AM »

Offline SoulHonky

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The Draft Rater is a decent tool but it's hardly as useful as he claims it is. Not surprisingly, it works well when it can operate with a little hindsight but the two years that he's done it, the results haven't been that great.

In 2007, it had Josh McRoberts and Nick Fazekas as top ten picks.

His 2008 list was (in order): Beasley, Love, Arthur, Speights, Augustin, Rose, Alexander, Lopez, Chalmers, Bayless, Hibbert, Koufos, Greene, Darnell Jackson, and DeAndre Jordan.

When he gets a year or two to fix his mistakes his draft work out a little better but the system is still no better.

Posted my open letter to Hollinger on my blog, www.soulhonky.com
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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2009, 11:19:56 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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John Hollinger is a clown look what he said about his rater in his most recent chat.

How is the draft rater at picking busts? DeMar DeRozan is projected to go top 10 but you had him 54th. I know from the article that the Rater has picked some sleepers but there was little evidence regarding busts.
John Hollinger

Rater did a fantastic job picking busts until last year. ("bust" being defined as somebody chosen among the first ten collegians that the Rater had well down the list). The only bad miss in the first six years was Charlie V. But last year it didn't like Randolph, Mayo or Gordon. Gordon's stats were ruined by the thumb so I can excuse that one a little, but the other two were plain misses.

I'd say Mayo and Gordon both are not busts.
OJ Mayo 18.5/3.1/3.5
Eric Gordon 16.1/2.6/2.8

Now Here are Kevin Love's numbers
11.1/9.1 and he is rated as the top player. Seems like the system is flawed to me. It might be good at picking sleepers but it's bad at picking busts.
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Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
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Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2009, 11:32:09 AM »

Offline Kwhit10

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As stated multiple times from John, players who are one and done in college are the hardest for the Draft Rater to rank, being as there is less statistical data.

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2009, 11:36:59 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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As stated multiple times from John, players who are one and done in college are the hardest for the Draft Rater to rank, being as there is less statistical data.
I feel like as a reader  it insults my intelligence that he would use Gordon, and Mayo as examples of busts from last year. He should use some better examples to prove his system not ones that make me question it.
DKC:  Rockets
CB Draft: Memphis Grizz
Players: Klay Thompson, Jabari Parker, Aaron Gordon
Next 3 picks: 4.14, 4.15, 4.19

Re: interesting Hollinger article
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 11:51:37 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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As stated multiple times from John, players who are one and done in college are the hardest for the Draft Rater to rank, being as there is less statistical data.
I feel like as a reader  it insults my intelligence that he would use Gordon, and Mayo as examples of busts from last year. He should use some better examples to prove his system not ones that make me question it.

He used them as examples of how his system as fail, not as examples of how it works...he provided plenty of other examples of players his rater has flagged as being good who ended up getting drafted later on and then had great careers.

From the sound of it, the only major misses (read: players his rater seriously underrated) he's had were Charlie V. and then this last year Mayo and Gordon.

To me it seems like his rater is not perfect but as some one else said it's an interesting tool that has a penchant for pointing out sleepers who may turn out to be major steals.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers