so what if we overpay Rondo?

[wdleehi]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

[winsomme]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

he's pretty darn close, and those guys have either just about peaked or have just turned the corner....

[wdleehi]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

he's pretty darn close, and those guys have either just about peaked or have just turned the corner....

That's fine.


But Rondo has not reached the point they have reached when they got their contracts.

[BballTim]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

  You'd take Baron Davis over Rondo right now? Seriously? I mean, Rondo destroys Nash every time they play, but you could at least argue for Nash, a great shooter who's defense is slightly more effective than Mikki Moore. I'd put Rondo 3rd in that group.

[wdleehi]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

  You'd take Baron Davis over Rondo right now? Seriously? I mean, Rondo destroys Nash every time they play, but you could at least argue for Nash, a great shooter who's defense is slightly more effective than Mikki Moore. I'd put Rondo 3rd in that group.

Compare Rondo to them when they got their contracts.

[BballTim]

Rondo is at least worth $10mm a year and probably closer to $11mm here is my case.

Steve Nash - $12.2mm
Baron Davis- $11.2mm
Tony Parker- $11.5mm
Chauncey Billups- $11.0mm

Rondo is as good or at least very close to as good as all of these players.  He is a key player for the Celtics on offense even without a jumpshot.  He often gets 2 or 3 easy layups a game that helps our offense from having to grind out buckets.  Also his rebounding is very overlooked and really helps our team defense limiting second chance points.  

I think we offer Rondo a deal of 5 years $55mm or $60mm.  My biggest worry is that so many teams have tried to free cap space for next season that someone will offer him a max deal and he will leave.

He is not there yet.  He is not as consistent as those guys.


Rondo is not the 2 time MVP
Rondo is not the Finals MVP
Rondo is not the guy that averages close to 20 and 8



We hope he can become that guy.


And with those  guys, how many of them took a long time to get to where they are now in terms of salary?

  Right now he's right in the middle of that group.

No he's not. 

  You'd take Baron Davis over Rondo right now? Seriously? I mean, Rondo destroys Nash every time they play, but you could at least argue for Nash, a great shooter who's defense is slightly more effective than Mikki Moore. I'd put Rondo 3rd in that group.

Compare Rondo to them when they got their contracts.

  That's changing the goalposts. He was comparing Rondo to them now, and so were you when you said that he wasn't a 2-time mvp (Nash wasn't when he signed his deal, was he?). But I'll play along. Note: full credit to Roy, as I'm directly taking Rondo's line from another thread.

Rondo: 11.9 pts, 5.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.6 to, 1.9 spg, .514 eFG% (.375 on jumpers), .543 TS%

Nash: 14.5 pts, 3.0 reb, 8.8 ast, 2.7 to, 0.9 spg, .534 eFG% (.526 on jumpers), .590 TS%

Davis: 17.1 pts, 3.7 reb, 6.4 ast, 2.8 to, 1.8 spg, .477 eFG% (.442 on jumpers), .500 TS%

Parker: 16.6 pts, 3.7 reb, 6.1 ast, 2.7 to, 1.2 spg, .502 eFG% (.405 on jumpers), .528 TS%

Billups: 17.0 pts, 3.4 reb, 7.2 ast, 2.0 to, 1.2 spg, .494 eFG% (.471 on jumpers), .591 TS%

  Again, other than shooting a little less Rondo's in the middle of the pack. Also keep in mind that an extension for Rondo would (I believe) start in 2010-2011 so you'd compare Rondo's stats next year to the stats I listed to get a better comparison.

[Fafnir]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

[BballTim]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

  But you also have to consider that a) he's not the only player in the league that teams double off of. Stick Ray and Paul on another poor outside shooter like Parker. Are teams going to stay tight on Tony and not help towards Paul and Ray? b) there are plenty of pgs who are significantly better shooters now than they were at Rondo's age and level of experience, and c) Rondo makes a lot of contributions on both ends of the court and his overall contribution is positive.

  Everybody seems to think the solution to all of our offensive woes is better shooting from the pg spot. If that's the case, why didn't Doc just play Eddie there for long stretches during the Orlando series? Didn't he know that they were playing off of Rondo? Didn't he know that they stayed close to Eddie when he played? Did he somehow forget that House is a better shooter than Rondo?

[Fafnir]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

  Everybody seems to think the solution to all of our offensive woes is better shooting from the pg spot. If that's the case, why didn't Doc just play Eddie there for long stretches during the Orlando series? Didn't he know that they were playing off of Rondo? Didn't he know that they stayed close to Eddie when he played? Did he somehow forget that House is a better shooter than Rondo?

This argument doesn't make sense. I never said shooting at the PG was the solution to our offensive problems. I said Rondo shooting at the PG would solve a lot of our offensive woes. We need Rondo's ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing at the point. We also need him to force other teams to guard him on the perimeter honestly for our offense to flow properly.

This whole "Why didn't Doc play House more" isn't the issue.

[BballTim]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

  Everybody seems to think the solution to all of our offensive woes is better shooting from the pg spot. If that's the case, why didn't Doc just play Eddie there for long stretches during the Orlando series? Didn't he know that they were playing off of Rondo? Didn't he know that they stayed close to Eddie when he played? Did he somehow forget that House is a better shooter than Rondo?

This argument doesn't make sense. I never said shooting at the PG was the solution to our offensive problems. I said Rondo shooting at the PG would solve a lot of our offensive woes. We need Rondo's ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing at the point. We also need him to force other teams to guard him on the perimeter honestly for our offense to flow properly.

  That was pretty much my point. You have to evaluate Rondo's entire effect on the game, not just his jump shooting. His ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing as well as his ability to get to the rim and finish are all among the best for PGs. While his shooting is bad, needs to be improved, and can have a negative effect on the team his overall play is a big positive and that's what you look at. Not that I'm comparing the players, but you don't evaluate Shaq based mainly on the fact that he's always been a liability late in playoff games because of his FT%, and you don't evaluate DH mainly on the fact that, when he goes against a good center, he's lucky to hit the rim on much more than half of his low post shots. If Rondo was a better outside shooter he'd be worth a max contract. But some people here think that, in spite of all of his skills, his shooting means he's worth little more than players like Jaric or Watson make.

[Fafnir]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

  Everybody seems to think the solution to all of our offensive woes is better shooting from the pg spot. If that's the case, why didn't Doc just play Eddie there for long stretches during the Orlando series? Didn't he know that they were playing off of Rondo? Didn't he know that they stayed close to Eddie when he played? Did he somehow forget that House is a better shooter than Rondo?

This argument doesn't make sense. I never said shooting at the PG was the solution to our offensive problems. I said Rondo shooting at the PG would solve a lot of our offensive woes. We need Rondo's ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing at the point. We also need him to force other teams to guard him on the perimeter honestly for our offense to flow properly.

  That was pretty much my point. You have to evaluate Rondo's entire effect on the game, not just his jump shooting. His ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing as well as his ability to get to the rim and finish are all among the best for PGs. While his shooting is bad, needs to be improved, and can have a negative effect on the team his overall play is a big positive and that's what you look at. Not that I'm comparing the players, but you don't evaluate Shaq based mainly on the fact that he's always been a liability late in playoff games because of his FT%, and you don't evaluate DH mainly on the fact that, when he goes against a good center, he's lucky to hit the rim on much more than half of his low post shots. If Rondo was a better outside shooter he'd be worth a max contract. But some people here think that, in spite of all of his skills, his shooting means he's worth little more than players like Jaric or Watson make.

Uh what? I said that because of the way defenses can play him, his impact in a positive way for the Celtics is lessened. Thus comparing his numbers to other PGs doesn't paint the whole picture. His value is less than his stats would indicate because of opposing teams ability to leave him unguarded on the outside. Do you disagree with this statement?

I think you're rehashing the same argument you've had with other people against me, when it really doesn't apply.

[BballTim]

You can't play basketball on paper, the way Rondo can be doubled of in the halfcourt has a huge impact on his value.

His eFG% on jumpers is very bad, and most of those are unguarded. You have to figure that into his value. Because while his own numbers are awesome, the impact on his team mates and the offense as a whole needs to be considered.

  Everybody seems to think the solution to all of our offensive woes is better shooting from the pg spot. If that's the case, why didn't Doc just play Eddie there for long stretches during the Orlando series? Didn't he know that they were playing off of Rondo? Didn't he know that they stayed close to Eddie when he played? Did he somehow forget that House is a better shooter than Rondo?

This argument doesn't make sense. I never said shooting at the PG was the solution to our offensive problems. I said Rondo shooting at the PG would solve a lot of our offensive woes. We need Rondo's ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing at the point. We also need him to force other teams to guard him on the perimeter honestly for our offense to flow properly.

  That was pretty much my point. You have to evaluate Rondo's entire effect on the game, not just his jump shooting. His ball handling, speed, defense, rebounding, and passing as well as his ability to get to the rim and finish are all among the best for PGs. While his shooting is bad, needs to be improved, and can have a negative effect on the team his overall play is a big positive and that's what you look at. Not that I'm comparing the players, but you don't evaluate Shaq based mainly on the fact that he's always been a liability late in playoff games because of his FT%, and you don't evaluate DH mainly on the fact that, when he goes against a good center, he's lucky to hit the rim on much more than half of his low post shots. If Rondo was a better outside shooter he'd be worth a max contract. But some people here think that, in spite of all of his skills, his shooting means he's worth little more than players like Jaric or Watson make.

Uh what? I said that because of the way defenses can play him, his impact in a positive way for the Celtics is lessened. Thus comparing his numbers to other PGs doesn't paint the whole picture. His value is less than his stats would indicate because of opposing teams ability to leave him unguarded on the outside. Do you disagree with this statement?

  Yes and no. Clearly you're correct that opposing teams ability to leave him unguarded on the outside lessens his value. But on the other hand, his defense doesn't show up in the listed stats. Also, I think that Rondo's impact on a game is frequently much greater than his stats indicate. I've seen him dominate games where he only made 1-2 baskets. I've seen him control games and end up with 5 points and 7 assists. I don't see a lot of pgs that can do that. You could make an argument that he was our team mvp this year in spite of the less than stellar outside shooting and low scoring totals.

[winsomme]

His value is less than his stats would indicate because of opposing teams ability to leave him unguarded on the outside. Do you disagree with this statement?

I definitely disagree with this statement. I actually think his stats understate his value.

[acieEarl]

Wait a year and see how he does before we pay him. I believe he should have been an all-star last year and if he has a better year than last he'll be worth what we have to pay him. All-star point guys are hard to come by. Might be the most important player on the team.

Someone tell me the last all-star point guard the Celts had?

[BballTim]

Wait a year and see how he does before we pay him. I believe he should have been an all-star last year and if he has a better year than last he'll be worth what we have to pay him. All-star point guys are hard to come by. Might be the most important player on the team.

Someone tell me the last all-star point guard the Celts had?

  Danny Ainge? Do combo guards count? If not DJ (another combo guard). Before, maybe JoJo?