C's interested in acquiring the second pick?

[Edgar]

management would need to open the check book...

and there u kill the proposal...

[Fafnir]

management would need to open the check book...

and there u kill the proposal...

I think what would kill that deal is that you'd just be getting Ray for all those pieces. Typically teams demand expiring deals and young talent. Pruitt hasn't cracked the rotation at all in two years despite the C's need for a backup PG.

[slamtheking]

Memphis:
Trades #2, Gay, Arthur, #27, and Darko
Receives Rondo, David Lee, and Glenn Davis (with contract extensions), along with Wilson Chandler and Eddie Curry, Boston's 2010 1st

New York:
Trades Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler, David Lee
Receives Darko, #27, Arthur

Boston:
Trades Rondo, Big Baby, 2010 1st
Receives #2 & Gay

Memphis:
PG: Rondo, Mike C., Marko J.
SG: OJ, Buckner, #36
SF: W. Chandler, Hakim
PF: Lee, Big Baby
C: Gasol, Eddie C, Haddadi

This Memphis team has a nice balance. It becomes more experienced, tougher, deeper, and improves the defensive character of the Grizz. Memphis picks up another first rounder for next year to pair with their other firsts to move up in the draft of 2010.

Knicks do this to shed Curry's contract. They give up two good pieces to shed salary for 2010, so they obviously lose in the short-term. However, they will be a lottery team and should receive a very good pick in 2010 (possibly the first pick in a strong draft) while potentially upgrading Lee and Chandler to Bosh and LeBron. If the gamble pays off, they are the easy winners in this trade.

2009/2010
PG: Duhon, Nate(resigned), #8 (Curry)
SG: Hughes, Joe Crawford
SF: Richardson, Gallinari, #27
PF: Harrington, Jefferies, Arthur
C: Gortat (MLE), Darko, Sene

2010/2011
Steph Curry, Duhon, Nate
Hughes (resigned), 2010 Lottery Pick
Lebron, Gallinari, (2009 #27)
Bosh, Harrington (resigned), Arthur
Gortat,

Boston will only do this if they feel Rondo is going to ask for too much money next year and essentially handcuff the organization. Rubio won't be ready to lead the Celtics, so they have to pray Kidd, Miller, or Bibby is willing to take the mid-level for a chance at a ring two years while grooming Rubio. The Cs also have to trade their expiring contracts for a serviceable big and hope to get a ring-chaser for the LLE. Boston has the expiring contracts of House (if he signs his player option), T. Allen, Scal, Pruitt (team option), and Giddens (team option) to trade for a big from a team looking to dump salary. If things worked out, they could field a team that would compete for a title for at least two more years while continuing to add younger pieces to stay competitive even longer.

PG: Miller or Kidd (MLE), Rubio
SG: Allen, Pruitt
SG: Pierce, Gay, Walker
PF: KG, Antonio McD (LLE), Powe
C: Perkins, Kaman (Trade)

C's already traded away 2009 pick so 2010 pick cannot be traded-->teams cannot trade away 1st round draft picks in consecutive years.  The famous Ted Stepian rule from the days when he drove Cleveland into the ground.

[Edgar]

management would need to open the check book...

and there u kill the proposal...

I think what would kill that deal is that you'd just be getting Ray for all those pieces. Typically teams demand expiring deals and young talent. Pruitt hasn't cracked the rotation at all in two years despite the C's need for a backup PG.

mainly imho because doc insist to play house
and pruitt next to house half of last year

p.s. tipically isnt a rule its just a common practice...see lakers
that thing btw kills any chance to develop pruitt as pg
something i love to call the delonte effect
even if  i am gratefull on how doc teach how to be a pg to delonte
he used to be like pruitt at that stage ( am i the only one to see the similarity?)
oh well
I get u in the ray thing, but i am worried about his chance to continue being a factor
or becoming the next peja or even worst wally....
I still love ray

[Jon Niednagel]

Memphis:
Trades #2, Gay, Arthur, #27, and Darko
Receives Rondo, David Lee, and Glenn Davis (with contract extensions), along with Wilson Chandler and Eddie Curry, Boston's 2010 1st

New York:
Trades Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler, David Lee
Receives Darko, #27, Arthur

Boston:
Trades Rondo, Big Baby, 2010 1st
Receives #2 & Gay

Memphis:
PG: Rondo, Mike C., Marko J.
SG: OJ, Buckner, #36
SF: W. Chandler, Hakim
PF: Lee, Big Baby
C: Gasol, Eddie C, Haddadi

This Memphis team has a nice balance. It becomes more experienced, tougher, deeper, and improves the defensive character of the Grizz. Memphis picks up another first rounder for next year to pair with their other firsts to move up in the draft of 2010.

Knicks do this to shed Curry's contract. They give up two good pieces to shed salary for 2010, so they obviously lose in the short-term. However, they will be a lottery team and should receive a very good pick in 2010 (possibly the first pick in a strong draft) while potentially upgrading Lee and Chandler to Bosh and LeBron. If the gamble pays off, they are the easy winners in this trade.

2009/2010
PG: Duhon, Nate(resigned), #8 (Curry)
SG: Hughes, Joe Crawford
SF: Richardson, Gallinari, #27
PF: Harrington, Jefferies, Arthur
C: Gortat (MLE), Darko, Sene

2010/2011
Steph Curry, Duhon, Nate
Hughes (resigned), 2010 Lottery Pick
Lebron, Gallinari, (2009 #27)
Bosh, Harrington (resigned), Arthur
Gortat,

Boston will only do this if they feel Rondo is going to ask for too much money next year and essentially handcuff the organization. Rubio won't be ready to lead the Celtics, so they have to pray Kidd, Miller, or Bibby is willing to take the mid-level for a chance at a ring two years while grooming Rubio. The Cs also have to trade their expiring contracts for a serviceable big and hope to get a ring-chaser for the LLE. Boston has the expiring contracts of House (if he signs his player option), T. Allen, Scal, Pruitt (team option), and Giddens (team option) to trade for a big from a team looking to dump salary. If things worked out, they could field a team that would compete for a title for at least two more years while continuing to add younger pieces to stay competitive even longer.

PG: Miller or Kidd (MLE), Rubio
SG: Allen, Pruitt
SG: Pierce, Gay, Walker
PF: KG, Antonio McD (LLE), Powe
C: Perkins, Kaman (Trade)

C's already traded away 2009 pick so 2010 pick cannot be traded-->teams cannot trade away 1st round draft picks in consecutive years.  The famous Ted Stepian rule from the days when he drove Cleveland into the ground.

This is true, but in this scenario the Cs get the second pick this year. Thus, they would be fine to trade next year's pick.

[Chris]

Memphis:
Trades #2, Gay, Arthur, #27, and Darko
Receives Rondo, David Lee, and Glenn Davis (with contract extensions), along with Wilson Chandler and Eddie Curry, Boston's 2010 1st

New York:
Trades Eddie Curry, Wilson Chandler, David Lee
Receives Darko, #27, Arthur

Boston:
Trades Rondo, Big Baby, 2010 1st
Receives #2 & Gay

Memphis:
PG: Rondo, Mike C., Marko J.
SG: OJ, Buckner, #36
SF: W. Chandler, Hakim
PF: Lee, Big Baby
C: Gasol, Eddie C, Haddadi

This Memphis team has a nice balance. It becomes more experienced, tougher, deeper, and improves the defensive character of the Grizz. Memphis picks up another first rounder for next year to pair with their other firsts to move up in the draft of 2010.

Knicks do this to shed Curry's contract. They give up two good pieces to shed salary for 2010, so they obviously lose in the short-term. However, they will be a lottery team and should receive a very good pick in 2010 (possibly the first pick in a strong draft) while potentially upgrading Lee and Chandler to Bosh and LeBron. If the gamble pays off, they are the easy winners in this trade.

2009/2010
PG: Duhon, Nate(resigned), #8 (Curry)
SG: Hughes, Joe Crawford
SF: Richardson, Gallinari, #27
PF: Harrington, Jefferies, Arthur
C: Gortat (MLE), Darko, Sene

2010/2011
Steph Curry, Duhon, Nate
Hughes (resigned), 2010 Lottery Pick
Lebron, Gallinari, (2009 #27)
Bosh, Harrington (resigned), Arthur
Gortat,

Boston will only do this if they feel Rondo is going to ask for too much money next year and essentially handcuff the organization. Rubio won't be ready to lead the Celtics, so they have to pray Kidd, Miller, or Bibby is willing to take the mid-level for a chance at a ring two years while grooming Rubio. The Cs also have to trade their expiring contracts for a serviceable big and hope to get a ring-chaser for the LLE. Boston has the expiring contracts of House (if he signs his player option), T. Allen, Scal, Pruitt (team option), and Giddens (team option) to trade for a big from a team looking to dump salary. If things worked out, they could field a team that would compete for a title for at least two more years while continuing to add younger pieces to stay competitive even longer.

PG: Miller or Kidd (MLE), Rubio
SG: Allen, Pruitt
SG: Pierce, Gay, Walker
PF: KG, Antonio McD (LLE), Powe
C: Perkins, Kaman (Trade)

C's already traded away 2009 pick so 2010 pick cannot be traded-->teams cannot trade away 1st round draft picks in consecutive years.  The famous Ted Stepian rule from the days when he drove Cleveland into the ground.

This is true, but in this scenario the Cs get the second pick this year. Thus, they would be fine to trade next year's pick.

Actually, the rule is that they cannot trade away their own pick for two consecutive future drafts.  Which means that it would make no difference if they get the #2 pick, unless they had their own pick back, they still could not trade next years pick....


Until after the draft.  This is the key.  After the draft the C's can in fact trade their 2010 pick.  This means they could actually agree to the trade before the draft, have the other team pick for them, and then complete the trade when the draft is over.

[indeedproceed]

well I mean beyond this, who is perpetuating the rumor that Jason Kidd or Andre Miller A) Want anything to do with us, or B) Would sign for a partial share of the mid-level exception?

We're gonna sign Mcdyess and Kidd/Miller for 5 million combined? I wouldn't call that feasible.

[Chris]

well I mean beyond this, who is perpetuating the rumor that Jason Kidd or Andre Miller A) Want anything to do with us, or B) Would sign for a partial share of the mid-level exception?

We're gonna sign Mcdyess and Kidd/Miller for 5 million combined? I wouldn't call that feasible.

I don't think there is any chance that either of those guys (or Bibby) sign for less than the MLE.  However, if the C's have an opening for a starting PG, I think any of those 3 would have to strongly consider coming here. 

Of course that would mean that the C's would then have to find a big man with the LLE or the vet minimum (or through a trade), but its certainly feasible.  We would just have to lower our aim from guys like McDyess to guys like Joe Smith.

[action781]

well I mean beyond this, who is perpetuating the rumor that Jason Kidd or Andre Miller A) Want anything to do with us, or B) Would sign for a partial share of the mid-level exception?

We're gonna sign Mcdyess and Kidd/Miller for 5 million combined? I wouldn't call that feasible.

Agreed.  And I still don't think that Kidd would ever sign here in Boston period.  Remember 2002?  I don't know for sure if players hold grudges against cities in that manner, but man our fans were rude that year.  I don't even know if I'd really want him either at this point in his career.  Is he even a top 10 pg in the league anymore?  I'd say no.

[guava_wrench]

After the wife beater chant, I don't see Kidd coming to Boston. I don't think a player should give a discount to a city who treated him with that level of disrespect. I am all for such taunting, but there should be a price.

[RAcker]

I was at Game 3 of that series (the comeback) and was shocked when that chant broke out as loudly as it did.

[Moranis]

The thing about Rondo is, with a healthy Celtics team, he is not going to get those kind of numbers he put up in the playoffs this year, next year. It took some pretty poor performances by either Ray or PP this year to allow him to accomplish what he did.

So let's not go crazy over Rondo's talent. I do not want to trade Rondo or Ray Ray, but I honestly think the C's are still a contender for the title with either of them being replaced by someone decent.

Doesn't your argument suggest the importance of keeping Rondo though? Next year, Ray, Paul, and KG are going to be a year older and most likely will have pretty poor performances at times (even when they're "healthy"). So next year, we need a PG who is more than just decent to win a title...

except you don't need a PG at all to win the title, unless of course you think Derek Fisher and Rafer Alston are "PG's"

  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.

The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.

[Jon Niednagel]

well I mean beyond this, who is perpetuating the rumor that Jason Kidd or Andre Miller A) Want anything to do with us, or B) Would sign for a partial share of the mid-level exception?

We're gonna sign Mcdyess and Kidd/Miller for 5 million combined? I wouldn't call that feasible.

I don't think there is any chance that either of those guys (or Bibby) sign for less than the MLE.  However, if the C's have an opening for a starting PG, I think any of those 3 would have to strongly consider coming here. 

Of course that would mean that the C's would then have to find a big man with the LLE or the vet minimum (or through a trade), but its certainly feasible.  We would just have to lower our aim from guys like McDyess to guys like Joe Smith.

Agreed. My hope is that McDyess would be willing to take the LLE for a shot at a ring, but that may be fantasy. I still think a serviceable big might be had in a trade for expiring contracts.

[Fafnir]

The thing about Rondo is, with a healthy Celtics team, he is not going to get those kind of numbers he put up in the playoffs this year, next year. It took some pretty poor performances by either Ray or PP this year to allow him to accomplish what he did.

So let's not go crazy over Rondo's talent. I do not want to trade Rondo or Ray Ray, but I honestly think the C's are still a contender for the title with either of them being replaced by someone decent.

Doesn't your argument suggest the importance of keeping Rondo though? Next year, Ray, Paul, and KG are going to be a year older and most likely will have pretty poor performances at times (even when they're "healthy"). So next year, we need a PG who is more than just decent to win a title...

except you don't need a PG at all to win the title, unless of course you think Derek Fisher and Rafer Alston are "PG's"

  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.

The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.

I'd like your argument more if you weren't leaving out the 80s which puts a giant hole in your argument. Leaving out Magic's Lakers and Isiah's Pistons is criminal if you're discussing the importance of PG play to championship teams.

Big men are the most important players in all of Basketball. After that talent is talent in my opinion. Whether at the 1, 2, or 3. Even then plenty of teams have won with merely strong 4/5s rather than great ones.

[Chris]

The thing about Rondo is, with a healthy Celtics team, he is not going to get those kind of numbers he put up in the playoffs this year, next year. It took some pretty poor performances by either Ray or PP this year to allow him to accomplish what he did.

So let's not go crazy over Rondo's talent. I do not want to trade Rondo or Ray Ray, but I honestly think the C's are still a contender for the title with either of them being replaced by someone decent.

Doesn't your argument suggest the importance of keeping Rondo though? Next year, Ray, Paul, and KG are going to be a year older and most likely will have pretty poor performances at times (even when they're "healthy"). So next year, we need a PG who is more than just decent to win a title...

except you don't need a PG at all to win the title, unless of course you think Derek Fisher and Rafer Alston are "PG's"

  You don't need a pg, per se, but you need talented players aside from a very good big. It doesn't have to be a pg just like it doesn't have to be a sf or sg but it can be a pg. So while you don't always need a good pg, you can't always win without one. If you want to put your theory that you don't need a good pg to the ultimate test, go back to all the years where the winning team had a good/great pg. Players like Magic, Isaiah, Parker and Billups. Would those teams have all won the title with Alston or Fisher as their starting pg? If not, you need to go back and refine your theory.

The Spurs won 3 titles when Parker was an average PG, the fourth was the only year he was playing at an all star level.  Billups actually was significantly more efficient and just overall better in the four years following the title run then during the title run (and was not an all star until 05-06). 

Obviously Zeke and Magic were key, if not the key, player on their title teams.  That is however clearly the exception, not the rule, and Magic was 6'9" not exactly your typical PG.

NBA Championship PG's - Rank as importance to team - Their league wide position
Rondo - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 2nd - All Star
Payton/Williams - 4th - Average (and that is generous)
Parker - 3rd - Above Average
Billups - Anywhere from 1st to 5th - Above Average
Parker - 2nd - Above Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Fisher - 3rd/4th - Below Average
Harper - 4th/5th - Poor
A. Johnson - 3rd - Below Average

It is pretty similar until you hit Zeke's Piston teams.  PG is far and away the least important position when determining the league champion.

I'd like your argument more if you weren't leaving out the 80s which puts a giant hole in your argument. Leaving out Magic's Lakers and Isiah's Pistons is criminal if you're discussing the importance of PG play to championship teams.

Big men are the most important players in all of Basketball. After that talent is talent in my opinion. Whether at the 1, 2, or 3. Even then plenty of teams have won with merely strong 4/5s rather than great ones.

Now, if you change the argument to small PG's, which Rondo is, the only one who has been one of the top 2 players on the team has been Isiah.

Billups and Magic were both very big PG's.  And Parker was not one of the top 2 players on his team in any of their championships.  In the first 2 championships it was Duncan and Robinson, who made an unstopable front line.  Then after that, Ginobili took over the reigns as the second best player on the Spurs. 

So while Garnett and Pierce are here, you don't need Rondo to be a top 2 player on the team, however, as they start fading away, you need someone to be stepping up to be leading the charge if the C's want to continue to compete.  If Rondo is making Max money, he better be the one leading the charge.  So if he special enough to do that?  I am not sure.