A Call to Joe in Detroit

[Montana]

I'd make a call to Joe in Detroit and ask if he is really serious about dumping salary and buying a team in 2010. I'd remind him of the time not so long ago that the C's helped him win a title with the Sheed deal. Then I would just mention off hand that if he really was serious about the salary dump, the C's might take a serious look at the Allen Allen duo for the Prince Hamilton duo. So he hangs up. But then he might not. The numbers work and Joe has another 11mm in 2010. Oh yeah, the C's just might pick up the Sheed later.

[JBcat]

How about we leave out Ray and Rip in this deal and do a TA, Scal, Mr Fillers, for Prince?   Our long 3 that can defend off the bench and play solid minutes is solved.  Prince makes 9.5 mil a year so the numbers might work. 

[RebusRankin]

You could trade Ray for Hamilton and Prince straight up.

[indeedproceed]

You could trade Ray for Hamilton and Prince straight up.

what makes you think that's an option? Or do you not think its an option but you're just saying its possible.

[Fafnir]

You could trade Ray for Hamilton and Prince straight up.

what makes you think that's an option? Or do you not think its an option but you're just saying its possible.

Honestly why would Detroit make such a deal anyways? Do they want to through out another season for another chunk of cap space? They'd have a gaping hole at the 3 and they don't have anyone who could step in. This trade would go against their stated plan, but you never know.

I think Rip is overated. Ray has a much better all around game, especially around the hoop. That being said having Prince on the bench would really help a ton of our bench issues. You could use him to iniate the offense, be our defensive wing, and he's a solid shooter from most distances.

Rip though, especially since his deal has been extendedm, is a serious downgrade whom is still paid a lot of money. Overall I don't think it'd work out for the Celtics.

[paintitgreen]

I think you do the deal if it's possible. Rip is not as good as Ray, no, but he's three years younger, and provides similar skills. He's used to the catch and shoot role, and can perform well in that role. A downgrade, yes, but not a major one, and for a major upgrade on your bench by bringing in Prince. And Hamilton's contract is pretty reasonable - three years, $34 million starting this season with the final season only partially guaranteed. Prince goes through 2011 for $10.3 this year and $11.1 next year. And both guys obviously know what it takes to win a championship. I'd hesitate because I just don't like Rip, but as far as economics and filling needs, it works.

I don't want to trade Ray either, but this is kind of an ideal move for him if you're worried about what his demands will be this summer - you still have an above average starting two guard, one locked up for three years at reasonable dollars and you get a big upgrade on the bench. It extends the Celtics' championship window by about two years without dampening, and perhaps even improving, our chances this season.

[RebusRankin]

If Detroit decides to totally blow up their team I could see them doing this to clear even more cap space. For the Celtics, it gives you a solid 2g and a great 6th man, who'd allow Paul and RIP to get rest.

[paintitgreen]

And hey, maybe the addition of Rip and Prince gives more incentive for Sheed or McDyess to join us. Pipe dream here, but if Sheed came on for the MLE, Davis resigned for reasonable money and Marbury took the vet min - you have a first unit of Rondo-Rip-Pierce-KG-Rasheed and a second unit of Marbury-House-Prince-Davis-Perk, with Giddens, Walker, Scalabrine, maybe Powe as your deep bench. I think you look for a 2 for the LLE, and you not only have the best starting five in the NBA, but a full bench of players (in my eyes, the best in the league if Marbury improves) who can sub into the starting lineup if any starter gets hurt.

[the_Bird]

Detroit's been rumored to want Ben Gordon.  If they sign Ben Gordon, they'll need to unload either Rip OR Price (probably Rip, he signed an extension right before they traded Chauncey and he makes more $$).  I'd probably do Rip-for-Ray straight up (well, with whatever fillers were needed).  Rip's a great player, borderline All-Star, good defender, heady player, and he's got more miles left on him than Ray does. 

Thing is, that would STILL leave Detroit with one wing too many; maybe they make it work for a season, maybe they'd still have some cap space for 2010 after Ray expired, maybe there's a three-way that could happen, or maybe they'd do another deal mid-season.

What I think Detroit *ought* to do is sign Gordon, then try and do a sign-and-trade with Utah for Boozer (who should command about the same per-year salary as Rip).  Boozer fills their hole in the frontcourt, and I could see Rip doing well for Sloan. 

[StartOrien]

And hey, maybe the addition of Rip and Prince gives more incentive for Sheed or McDyess to join us. Pipe dream here, but if Sheed came on for the MLE, Davis resigned for reasonable money and Marbury took the vet min - you have a first unit of Rondo-Rip-Pierce-KG-Rasheed and a second unit of Marbury-House-Prince-Davis-Perk, with Giddens, Walker, Scalabrine, maybe Powe as your deep bench. I think you look for a 2 for the LLE, and you not only have the best starting five in the NBA, but a full bench of players (in my eyes, the best in the league if Marbury improves) who can sub into the starting lineup if any starter gets hurt.

I'd be very surprised to see Perk go to the bench.

[slamtheking]

And hey, maybe the addition of Rip and Prince gives more incentive for Sheed or McDyess to join us. Pipe dream here, but if Sheed came on for the MLE, Davis resigned for reasonable money and Marbury took the vet min - you have a first unit of Rondo-Rip-Pierce-KG-Rasheed and a second unit of Marbury-House-Prince-Davis-Perk, with Giddens, Walker, Scalabrine, maybe Powe as your deep bench. I think you look for a 2 for the LLE, and you not only have the best starting five in the NBA, but a full bench of players (in my eyes, the best in the league if Marbury improves) who can sub into the starting lineup if any starter gets hurt.

Sheed would come off the bench, not Perk.  One other thing to consider, the bench wouldn't be substituted en masse but a player or two at a time to keep the flow going.  The entire second unit probably wouldn't see more than a 2-3 minute stretch together per half if that.  That's not a bad thing, just the likely scenario.

I wouldn't mind Ray for Rip/Prince at all.  The contracts play hell with the finances the next 2 years but they're very good players locked up for a few years during the PP/KG window.  Where it would bite the C's in the butts is when Rondo's and then Perk's contracts come up in the next 2-3 years. 

[Moranis]

Detroit wants to sign Boozer and they also want to sign and trade for Gordon (using Prince or Hamilton).  I'd say they won't make any moves until after free agency and then it might be possible, especially if Gordon or Boozer doesn't sign with them.

[paintitgreen]

And hey, maybe the addition of Rip and Prince gives more incentive for Sheed or McDyess to join us. Pipe dream here, but if Sheed came on for the MLE, Davis resigned for reasonable money and Marbury took the vet min - you have a first unit of Rondo-Rip-Pierce-KG-Rasheed and a second unit of Marbury-House-Prince-Davis-Perk, with Giddens, Walker, Scalabrine, maybe Powe as your deep bench. I think you look for a 2 for the LLE, and you not only have the best starting five in the NBA, but a full bench of players (in my eyes, the best in the league if Marbury improves) who can sub into the starting lineup if any starter gets hurt.

Sheed would come off the bench, not Perk.  One other thing to consider, the bench wouldn't be substituted en masse but a player or two at a time to keep the flow going.  The entire second unit probably wouldn't see more than a 2-3 minute stretch together per half if that.  That's not a bad thing, just the likely scenario.

I wouldn't mind Ray for Rip/Prince at all.  The contracts play hell with the finances the next 2 years but they're very good players locked up for a few years during the PP/KG window.  Where it would bite the C's in the butts is when Rondo's and then Perk's contracts come up in the next 2-3 years. 

I've debated the Perk-Sheed thing in my head. I just think Sheed is a better player overall. But maybe he finishes games instead of starting them IF he were to come here. I love Perk too, but we're overvaluing him based on how huge he was against Howard. Yes, I would start him against Orlando in all likelihood. However, there are only 2-3 teams with actual centers for whom you need an oldschool defensive center like Perk. In a lot of situations, Perk's best skills go unused because they are not needed. Of course, on the other hand, maybe Rasheed would be better to spread the court with Davis staying closer to the basket, while Perk can stay closer to the basket while KG works a little more outside.

On the second point, I think you're underestimating a) how much Doc likes to make wholesale substitutions and always has, b) the fact that we need more rest for our veteran starters, as was proven with Pierce breaking down toward the end of the year and c) the fact that with such a great bench, Doc has the luxury of fulfilling a) and b). 15 minutes is not likely, but I'd say a lot more than 2-3. With competent offensive and defensive players, Doc could play the first 6 minutes of the second quarter and the first 3 of the fourth with his bench, then close games with his strongest crew given the matchup. 

While we would have some trouble down the road, that mostly has to do with Prince since Rip will be filling the starting 2 role for about the money we'd want to give Ray. Prince has a reasonable contract, though, and trade value at that cost even with 2 years left on the contract (which is why this trade is so unlikely in the first place), so you could unload him if necessary to open up cap space to resign Rondo. Plus, when Perk is ready to be extended, Pierce's contract will be over and it's more than likely he'd take enough of a cut to give $5 mil more to Perk if we wanted to go that high. (I see Perk as an $8 mil a year type center.)

[slamtheking]

And hey, maybe the addition of Rip and Prince gives more incentive for Sheed or McDyess to join us. Pipe dream here, but if Sheed came on for the MLE, Davis resigned for reasonable money and Marbury took the vet min - you have a first unit of Rondo-Rip-Pierce-KG-Rasheed and a second unit of Marbury-House-Prince-Davis-Perk, with Giddens, Walker, Scalabrine, maybe Powe as your deep bench. I think you look for a 2 for the LLE, and you not only have the best starting five in the NBA, but a full bench of players (in my eyes, the best in the league if Marbury improves) who can sub into the starting lineup if any starter gets hurt.

Sheed would come off the bench, not Perk.  One other thing to consider, the bench wouldn't be substituted en masse but a player or two at a time to keep the flow going.  The entire second unit probably wouldn't see more than a 2-3 minute stretch together per half if that.  That's not a bad thing, just the likely scenario.

I wouldn't mind Ray for Rip/Prince at all.  The contracts play hell with the finances the next 2 years but they're very good players locked up for a few years during the PP/KG window.  Where it would bite the C's in the butts is when Rondo's and then Perk's contracts come up in the next 2-3 years. 

I've debated the Perk-Sheed thing in my head. I just think Sheed is a better player overall. But maybe he finishes games instead of starting them IF he were to come here. I love Perk too, but we're overvaluing him based on how huge he was against Howard. Yes, I would start him against Orlando in all likelihood. However, there are only 2-3 teams with actual centers for whom you need an oldschool defensive center like Perk. In a lot of situations, Perk's best skills go unused because they are not needed. Of course, on the other hand, maybe Rasheed would be better to spread the court with Davis staying closer to the basket, while Perk can stay closer to the basket while KG works a little more outside.

On the second point, I think you're underestimating a) how much Doc likes to make wholesale substitutions and always has, b) the fact that we need more rest for our veteran starters, as was proven with Pierce breaking down toward the end of the year and c) the fact that with such a great bench, Doc has the luxury of fulfilling a) and b). 15 minutes is not likely, but I'd say a lot more than 2-3. With competent offensive and defensive players, Doc could play the first 6 minutes of the second quarter and the first 3 of the fourth with his bench, then close games with his strongest crew given the matchup. 

While we would have some trouble down the road, that mostly has to do with Prince since Rip will be filling the starting 2 role for about the money we'd want to give Ray. Prince has a reasonable contract, though, and trade value at that cost even with 2 years left on the contract (which is why this trade is so unlikely in the first place), so you could unload him if necessary to open up cap space to resign Rondo. Plus, when Perk is ready to be extended, Pierce's contract will be over and it's more than likely he'd take enough of a cut to give $5 mil more to Perk if we wanted to go that high. (I see Perk as an $8 mil a year type center.)

Granted Doc has done mass substitutions in the past but that always backfired.  The bench would just totally lose the momentum the starters had built up.  Hopefully doc has learned from that (high hopes I know).  The last couple of years he's stayed away from that pattern to go with a couple of bench players at a time.

Sheed finishing games wouldn't surprise me depending on the match ups.  He did this a lot with Posey last year.  Perk has developed some moves this year so having him on the floor at the end isn't as much of an offensive negative as in past years.  Either way, I think they both would contribute well.

[paintitgreen]

Maybe I misled a little, I don't think there should be line changes. Obviously it should be a gradual substitution pattern where you bring the subs in one or two at a time, to keep some continuity but there will be plenty of minutes for the whole second unit to play together.

Plus, having a whole second unit in there instead of keeping a starter or two in probably won't backfire when the bench you're bringing in has Tayshaun Prince, Glen Davis and Rasheed Wallace, three guys who started for the last few months and playoffs this season, in the frontcourt and a year-under-his-belt-in-Boston Stephon Marbury and Eddie House, returned to his role of 8th/9th (instead of 6th) man with a lot more open looks in the backcourt. Big difference from Pruitt, House, TA, Powe and Scalabrine or some of the other combinations we've had. A couple years ago, when our bench had Delonte, TA, Ricky Davis, Al and Perk, it was a pretty solid second crew that let our starters get some actual rest.

Doc's problem, in my eyes, was trying to turn three bench players (Scal, Marbury, House) into a second unit by throwing TA and Moore out there with them. If the second unit features five competent NBA players, I don't have any problem with an entirely fresh second five playing together against another team's bench players. We'd be extending leads with that crew almost every night, not trying just to maintain them.