Author Topic: About replacing Marbury....  (Read 9147 times)

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Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2009, 06:48:02 PM »

Offline cordobes

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He is not a point guard. Hes a shooting guard in a Point guards body. Do not let him keep fooling you into thinking that he can dribble and pass well. He shoots 3's end of story. ;)

He dribbles and passes well enough. He's not worse than Steve Kerr. A shooting guard in a point guard body is point-guard, unless you have a point-guard in a shooting-guard body to pair with him. There are plenty of PGs in the NBA who are similar to House. The C's can afford to play a backup PG like House - they have plenty of playmakers in other positions. Heck, they won a ring doing it. And they definitely need an elite 3 pt shooter at the position. What they possibly can't afford is to pair House with PGs like Marbury or Carter, at least during the playoffs.

Carter would be a downgrade from House. Re-signing Marbury would mean banking on an improbable major improvement from him. That kind of risky bet didn't work last season.

He averaged 1 assist for ever 18mins played during the regular season, and less than 1 assist a game in the playoffs. He can not pass.

So what? I'm fully aware of that.

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In the postseason there were numerous times when he was taken out of the game because he could not handle the ball when pressured.

Huh? When?

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He could not guard opposing shooting guards during the playoffs.

Exactly. That's why I keep saying you either play House as the PG or you don't play him.

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If House could get the job done as "PG" there would have been no need to get Marbury in the first place.

Like Cassell in the previous here. Two mistakes.

-----------------

People keep thinking we need a classic PG in bench. I don't understand why. A point-guard like House, who's an off-the-ball guard in a point-guard body, is a very good fit.

Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2009, 06:57:15 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Quote from: cordobes link=topic=28562.msg499770#msg499770
People keep thinking we need a classic PG in bench. I don't understand why. A point-guard like House, who's an off-the-ball guard in a point-guard body, is a very good fit.

Yeah, I have to agree here.  I wouldn't throw anything more than the veteran minimum at a backup PG for this team.  House is adequate enough for me.  Plus how many minutes are we talking where we need a classic PG off the bench?  8-10 minutes, maybe? 

Veteran minimum, sure.  Anything higher than that I want dedicated to either some back up bigs or a legitimate backup wing. 


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Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #32 on: June 05, 2009, 04:17:29 AM »

Offline greenwise

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Oh please...Anthony Carter and Orien Greene better fits than Marbury?  :o So far, Stephon is the best option for this team as a free agent sign for the PG spot. Dixon is not a PG either and A.Johnson will continue in Orlando (they are playing the NBA finals, why would he leave the Magic?)

Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2009, 12:46:09 AM »

Offline snively

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House is what was left in the perfect point guard bottle after Rondo was poured out. 

Marbury (and Cassell before him) was supposed to be a more balanced player, somewhere in the range of passable to good with his jumper and capable of putting it on the floor and creating when the other playmakers were out or needed a breather.  Instead he was terrible shooter and that ruined the rest of his game.  While he was a willing ball-mover and defender, his playmaking ability was also non-existent as teams simply ran under screens and let him think about bricking pull-up 20 footers or pass it around the perimeter.

But the idea that bringing in Marbury or Cassell was unnecessary and based an insignificant need is false.  We have a shortage of primary playmakers.  The Big 3 are still very good, but other than Paul, they are secondary playmakers.  KG's post touches are few and far between and he primarily acts as facilitator and finisher on offense.  Unless Ray is hot, he's not ideal as the first point of attack. The high screens they run for him against set defenses usually produce his own shot or a pass out to the perimeter that only Rondo and Pierce are dangerous enough to really make something out of.  Even Paul is no longer an ideal playmaker, as his assist-to-turnover rate attests to.  As for the rest of the team, not much.  Perk has not developed into the kind of player who can pass effectively from a post-up opportunity.  Neither has Powe.  Baby should not be counted on to create.  Scal, no.  Tony Allen will create for the other team as often as not.  Rondo is the only consistently effective playmaker on the team.

Taking this into consideration, I think its understandable why Doc and Ainge have been dissatisfied with House at the 1.  You would think that the replacement for the only consistent playmaker has to bring some playmaking to the table.  House brings none.  What he does do is increase the efficiency of others' playmaking. But since the primary playmaking role really doesn't suit any of the Big 3, his effect is marginal when acting as a floor-spacer for a lot of iso action.  That's why he shines when matched with a true playmaker, as he is able to play off another's strength and not simply shore up another's weakness.  Of course these line-ups rarely work, as guys like Marbury and Rondo aren't big enough to guard 2s.


Still neither Marbury or any other available options are really good enough to dramatically outproduce even the marginal contributions of House at the 1, at least to the level needed to justify the added expense.

Given our financial limitations, it's probably not realistic to add a primary playmaker into the rotation (though Jason Kidd is a nice pipe-dream).  Thus, it's probably best to enhance the floor-spacing strategy that Doc uses to improve the Big 3's playmaking.  Thus, the roles to upgrade are the shooting big men (Baby and Mikki can't hack it as Posey and PJ replacements).  A line-up made to space the floor for the Big 3 to operate would be a lot more effective if Perk and Baby were not a necessary part of it.
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Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2009, 01:30:31 AM »

Offline Cman

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House is what was left in the perfect point guard bottle after Rondo was poured out. 

TP for that.
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Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2009, 11:07:05 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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It takes a lot of dislike for Marbury to claim Anthony Carter is better than him ****.

Carter has been an incredibly consistent PG over the last two years.  He isn't great at any one thing, but he does everything well. 

Marbury on the other hand was very inconsistent in the time he was here.  Personally, I think he will be much better with a full season with a team, but based on the evidence of their performances this past year, Carter is the better backup PG right now.

Exactly.  Statistically, Starbury was one of the very worst players in the entire NBA last season, whereas Carter has been very solid recently.

Which player would you rather have (per 36 minutes)?

Player A: 8.3 pts, 7.3 ast, 43.3% FG%, 1.9 stl, 3.1 to

Player B: 7.7 pts, 6.5 ast, 34.2% FG%, 0.9 stl, 3.2 to

I'll go with Player A, even without considering Player B's history of disruptive behavior, both with coaches and teammates.

Chuckle at some of the above.

I'll take Anthony Carter over the corpse of Marbury we saw last season any day.
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Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2009, 11:36:09 AM »

Offline wiley

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House is what was left in the perfect point guard bottle after Rondo was poured out. 

Marbury (and Cassell before him) was supposed to be a more balanced player, somewhere in the range of passable to good with his jumper and capable of putting it on the floor and creating when the other playmakers were out or needed a breather.  Instead he was terrible shooter and that ruined the rest of his game.  While he was a willing ball-mover and defender, his playmaking ability was also non-existent as teams simply ran under screens and let him think about bricking pull-up 20 footers or pass it around the perimeter.

But the idea that bringing in Marbury or Cassell was unnecessary and based an insignificant need is false.  We have a shortage of primary playmakers.  The Big 3 are still very good, but other than Paul, they are secondary playmakers.  KG's post touches are few and far between and he primarily acts as facilitator and finisher on offense.  Unless Ray is hot, he's not ideal as the first point of attack. The high screens they run for him against set defenses usually produce his own shot or a pass out to the perimeter that only Rondo and Pierce are dangerous enough to really make something out of.  Even Paul is no longer an ideal playmaker, as his assist-to-turnover rate attests to.  As for the rest of the team, not much.  Perk has not developed into the kind of player who can pass effectively from a post-up opportunity.  Neither has Powe.  Baby should not be counted on to create.  Scal, no.  Tony Allen will create for the other team as often as not.  Rondo is the only consistently effective playmaker on the team.

Taking this into consideration, I think its understandable why Doc and Ainge have been dissatisfied with House at the 1.  You would think that the replacement for the only consistent playmaker has to bring some playmaking to the table.  House brings none.  What he does do is increase the efficiency of others' playmaking. But since the primary playmaking role really doesn't suit any of the Big 3, his effect is marginal when acting as a floor-spacer for a lot of iso action.  That's why he shines when matched with a true playmaker, as he is able to play off another's strength and not simply shore up another's weakness.  Of course these line-ups rarely work, as guys like Marbury and Rondo aren't big enough to guard 2s.


Still neither Marbury or any other available options are really good enough to dramatically outproduce even the marginal contributions of House at the 1, at least to the level needed to justify the added expense.

Given our financial limitations, it's probably not realistic to add a primary playmaker into the rotation (though Jason Kidd is a nice pipe-dream).  Thus, it's probably best to enhance the floor-spacing strategy that Doc uses to improve the Big 3's playmaking.  Thus, the roles to upgrade are the shooting big men (Baby and Mikki can't hack it as Posey and PJ replacements).  A line-up made to space the floor for the Big 3 to operate would be a lot more effective if Perk and Baby were not a necessary part of it.

So if we want to keep House the best thing we could do is sign Kirk Heinrich.  Heinrich guards the 2 and Eddie gets to shoot and nothing else.  So, my question is who is the most
Heinrich-like guard in the league not named Heinrich (since we probably couldn't get him)

TP for clearly describing the House conundrum. 

I will say that during our championship run I was distressed when House was not being used as the backup PG, in deference to Sam Cassel (as you pointed out was a mistake).  But I agree there is a playmaking issue.

Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2009, 12:36:34 PM »

Offline yoursweatersux

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House is what was left in the perfect point guard bottle after Rondo was poured out. 

Marbury (and Cassell before him) was supposed to be a more balanced player, somewhere in the range of passable to good with his jumper and capable of putting it on the floor and creating when the other playmakers were out or needed a breather.  Instead he was terrible shooter and that ruined the rest of his game.  While he was a willing ball-mover and defender, his playmaking ability was also non-existent as teams simply ran under screens and let him think about bricking pull-up 20 footers or pass it around the perimeter.

But the idea that bringing in Marbury or Cassell was unnecessary and based an insignificant need is false.  We have a shortage of primary playmakers.  The Big 3 are still very good, but other than Paul, they are secondary playmakers.  KG's post touches are few and far between and he primarily acts as facilitator and finisher on offense.  Unless Ray is hot, he's not ideal as the first point of attack. The high screens they run for him against set defenses usually produce his own shot or a pass out to the perimeter that only Rondo and Pierce are dangerous enough to really make something out of.  Even Paul is no longer an ideal playmaker, as his assist-to-turnover rate attests to.  As for the rest of the team, not much.  Perk has not developed into the kind of player who can pass effectively from a post-up opportunity.  Neither has Powe.  Baby should not be counted on to create.  Scal, no.  Tony Allen will create for the other team as often as not.  Rondo is the only consistently effective playmaker on the team.

Taking this into consideration, I think its understandable why Doc and Ainge have been dissatisfied with House at the 1.  You would think that the replacement for the only consistent playmaker has to bring some playmaking to the table.  House brings none.  What he does do is increase the efficiency of others' playmaking. But since the primary playmaking role really doesn't suit any of the Big 3, his effect is marginal when acting as a floor-spacer for a lot of iso action.  That's why he shines when matched with a true playmaker, as he is able to play off another's strength and not simply shore up another's weakness.  Of course these line-ups rarely work, as guys like Marbury and Rondo aren't big enough to guard 2s.


Still neither Marbury or any other available options are really good enough to dramatically outproduce even the marginal contributions of House at the 1, at least to the level needed to justify the added expense.

Given our financial limitations, it's probably not realistic to add a primary playmaker into the rotation (though Jason Kidd is a nice pipe-dream).  Thus, it's probably best to enhance the floor-spacing strategy that Doc uses to improve the Big 3's playmaking.  Thus, the roles to upgrade are the shooting big men (Baby and Mikki can't hack it as Posey and PJ replacements).  A line-up made to space the floor for the Big 3 to operate would be a lot more effective if Perk and Baby were not a necessary part of it.

So if we want to keep House the best thing we could do is sign Kirk Heinrich.  Heinrich guards the 2 and Eddie gets to shoot and nothing else.  So, my question is who is the most
Heinrich-like guard in the league not named Heinrich (since we probably couldn't get him)

TP for clearly describing the House conundrum. 

I will say that during our championship run I was distressed when House was not being used as the backup PG, in deference to Sam Cassel (as you pointed out was a mistake).  But I agree there is a playmaking issue.

Playmaking, play-shmaking. Putting in Eddie worked to perfection in last year's finals. And Paul Pierce is ABSOLUTELY capable of doing the playmaking when Eddie is in the lineup. So while I see your points, I'm going to disagree because A: I think Paul Pierce and create shots for everybody else B: past experience dictates that this is correct.

Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2009, 06:54:17 AM »

Offline Drucci

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Marbury just updated his Twitter after two months of absence (he didn't twitt during the playoffs) :

Quote
Tweet tweet...I'm sorry I haven't been on as I've been busy working on starbury and relaxing w/the fam
Also I had to take a deep breath as I was upset about the losss in game 7, that feeling was the worst feeling ever playing bball as I wanted to make it to the championship. I'll be up and running next week so hit me up.

It seems like he was very disappointed by the game 7 loss, and still wants badly a championship. I hope he re-signs with the Celtics!

Re: About replacing Marbury....
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2009, 07:53:09 AM »

Offline vagrantwade

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It takes a lot of dislike for Marbury to claim Anthony Carter is better than him ****.

Carter has been an incredibly consistent PG over the last two years.  He isn't great at any one thing, but he does everything well. 

Marbury on the other hand was very inconsistent in the time he was here.  Personally, I think he will be much better with a full season with a team, but based on the evidence of their performances this past year, Carter is the better backup PG right now.

Exactly.  Statistically, Starbury was one of the very worst players in the entire NBA last season, whereas Carter has been very solid recently.

Which player would you rather have (per 36 minutes)?

Player A: 8.3 pts, 7.3 ast, 43.3% FG%, 1.9 stl, 3.1 to

Player B: 7.7 pts, 6.5 ast, 34.2% FG%, 0.9 stl, 3.2 to

I'll go with Player A, even without considering Player B's history of disruptive behavior, both with coaches and teammates.

Chuckle at some of the above.

I'll take Anthony Carter over the corpse of Marbury we saw last season any day.


Marbury was off for a year. What is Anthony Carter's excuse?