Could Ainge have improved the Celtics in 2009?

[Brendan]

Noci is probably my least favorite player. There is nothing about his game I like.

Posey got overpaid by a silly team that thought it was one Posey away from winning the title. All in all it probably makes Posey 10 million richer, but it won't end well there. OKC had better options playing Peja and Wright at the SF spot, and should have focused on finding another guard and another big man. They would have done better trying to trade for BBD then chasing Posey for example.

[Chris]

Noci is probably my least favorite player. There is nothing about his game I like.

Posey got overpaid by a silly team that thought it was one Posey away from winning the title. All in all it probably makes Posey 10 million richer, but it won't end well there. OKC had better options playing Peja and Wright at the SF spot, and should have focused on finding another guard and another big man. They would have done better trying to trade for BBD then chasing Posey for example.

Could you elaborate on what you don't like about Nocioni?  He is a good shooter, very intelligent, good passer, decent defender, tough as nails, and has been very clutch in the past.  As you can tell, I am a fan...but I am curious what your perspective is.

[Brendan]

From his CHI days playing against the C's. Seemed a bit of a drama queen and a bit of cheap shot artist (no specifics come to mind) - but beyond that just how he played style wise annoyed me. He also seems like a tweener a bit too small to be a PF and too slow to be a SF, but not sure if that's accurate.

If he becomes a celtic I'll definately get on bored, but I have a bad vibe about him. He was also over rated for a while (leading to his big contract, which along with young Walton's was bad from day 1, sort of like the rich man's version of Scal's contract) and over paid - things which always make the guy easier to despise.

[Chris]

From his CHI days playing against the C's. Seemed a bit of a drama queen and a bit of cheap shot artist (no specifics come to mind) - but beyond that just how he played style wise annoyed me. He also seems like a tweener a bit too small to be a PF and too slow to be a SF, but not sure if that's accurate.

If he becomes a celtic I'll definately get on bored, but I have a bad vibe about him. He was also over rated for a while (leading to his big contract, which along with young Walton's was bad from day 1, sort of like the rich man's version of Scal's contract) and over paid - things which always make the guy easier to despise.

Fair enough. 

I think he is very much like Posey, or Noah...or even Perk.  He is very hatable when he is on another team, but when he is on your team, he is great.  He knows how to get under the skin of other teams players and fans. 

And I see your point about him being a tweener.  But I think he is the type of tweener who is more versatile, than a liability.  He can defend most SF's as well as anyone, and can cause problems for perimeter PF's.  And he is really what the team was missing offensively off the bench, since he could shoot and move the ball like Scal, but was a much better ballhandler and scorer. 

As for being overpaid...I think he was at the beginning of his contract, but as it continues to go down, it becomes much more reasonable.

[Jon]

You're right that the Big Three do limit Ainge.  That's the curse that comes along with the blessing of having three superstars. 

Still, he could've resigned Posey.  Had he done that, the C's would have had their perimeter defender, Pierce wouldn't have been exhausted, and they would have had someone to guard Rashard Lewis.  They probably would be playing Cleveland right now. 

However, without KG, they weren't going to win it all. 

[cordobes]

In another site I found a great quote about Nocioni. I think it defines him perfectly:

Andres Nocioni is like my first time. The energy level is high,there is hair flying everywhere, broken english, a lot of freelancing that doesn't accomplish much, several bouts of complaining and in the end the nagging feeling that you overpaid.

I think the only reason why Nocioni is seen as a good defender is because he's very tough and energetic.

[guava_wrench]

You're right that the Big Three do limit Ainge.  That's the curse that comes along with the blessing of having three superstars. 

Still, he could've resigned Posey.  Had he done that, the C's would have had their perimeter defender, Pierce wouldn't have been exhausted, and they would have had someone to guard Rashard Lewis.  They probably would be playing Cleveland right now. 

However, without KG, they weren't going to win it all. 

Resigning Posey means paying a lot for no guarantees of a better finish.

Of course, it is easy to assume that he would have changed everything, since it can't be disproven.

Posey means Baby doesn't hit that game-winner, etc.

[Gunner]

I think if Doc had done a better job of resting Ray and Pierce in the last few months of the season, even if we lost 15 to 20 more games, we'd be playing Cleveland right now.

Home court was meaningless.

Being exhausted killed us.

[Jon]

You're right that the Big Three do limit Ainge.  That's the curse that comes along with the blessing of having three superstars. 

Still, he could've resigned Posey.  Had he done that, the C's would have had their perimeter defender, Pierce wouldn't have been exhausted, and they would have had someone to guard Rashard Lewis.  They probably would be playing Cleveland right now. 

However, without KG, they weren't going to win it all. 

Resigning Posey means paying a lot for no guarantees of a better finish.

Of course, it is easy to assume that he would have changed everything, since it can't be disproven.

Posey means Baby doesn't hit that game-winner, etc.

Of course it can't be disproven.  But I don't think it's a stretch to say that something small could've turned the Orlando series. 

I also agree with you; Posey in green would've meant no Baby hitting the game winner: the C's would've been already up by 10. 

[elcotte]

You're right that the Big Three do limit Ainge.  That's the curse that comes along with the blessing of having three superstars. 

Still, he could've resigned Posey.  Had he done that, the C's would have had their perimeter defender, Pierce wouldn't have been exhausted, and they would have had someone to guard Rashard Lewis.  They probably would be playing Cleveland right now. 

However, without KG, they weren't going to win it all. 

Too much money for Posey for too long.

[Jon]

You're right that the Big Three do limit Ainge.  That's the curse that comes along with the blessing of having three superstars. 

Still, he could've resigned Posey.  Had he done that, the C's would have had their perimeter defender, Pierce wouldn't have been exhausted, and they would have had someone to guard Rashard Lewis.  They probably would be playing Cleveland right now. 

However, without KG, they weren't going to win it all. 

Too much money for Posey for too long.

Completely disagree.  What would Posey's contract have prevented us from doing?  Three years from now the C's window is going to be over.  If Posey's contract held up the rebuilding process a year, it would be a small price to pay for winning a couple more titles.  Moreover, two years from now he'd be going into his last year, making his contract quite appealing to teams looking for expiring deals. 

So I don't exactly see how a four year contract would have hurt this team. 

[BASS_THUMPER]

i'd pay posey

huge part of gettin that ring..huge

[CoachBo]

Unquestionably, I would have paid Posey also. We now know, courtsey of Grousbeck, that he was willing to ante up for Posey.

Ainge wasn't. OK. However, it's absolute madness to fail to attempt to replace him, short of the insanity of overpaying wildly for Tony Allen. Posey walked over about $6 million. We wasted almost half that on a fan favorite who's simply mentally incapable of contributing to a champion.

[CoachBo]

From his CHI days playing against the C's. Seemed a bit of a drama queen and a bit of cheap shot artist (no specifics come to mind) - but beyond that just how he played style wise annoyed me. He also seems like a tweener a bit too small to be a PF and too slow to be a SF, but not sure if that's accurate.

If he becomes a celtic I'll definately get on bored, but I have a bad vibe about him. He was also over rated for a while (leading to his big contract, which along with young Walton's was bad from day 1, sort of like the rich man's version of Scal's contract) and over paid - things which always make the guy easier to despise.

Fair enough. 

I think he is very much like Posey, or Noah...or even Perk.  He is very hatable when he is on another team, but when he is on your team, he is great.  He knows how to get under the skin of other teams players and fans. 

And I see your point about him being a tweener.  But I think he is the type of tweener who is more versatile, than a liability.  He can defend most SF's as well as anyone, and can cause problems for perimeter PF's.  And he is really what the team was missing offensively off the bench, since he could shoot and move the ball like Scal, but was a much better ballhandler and scorer. 

As for being overpaid...I think he was at the beginning of his contract, but as it continues to go down, it becomes much more reasonable.

I agree that Nocioni's a tweener - but so was Posey. Size is irrelevant to fill the role we need filled, anyway - that of a versatile player that you've laid out quite clearly, Chris.

The only quasi-weakness I see in his game is defense, and I'm absolutely certain that he can be molded into the Celtics defensive mold. He has the physical skills.

I harbor no delusions about Posey - he could be reacquired, but that would require Ainge to publicly admit to a mistake. Won't happen.

Noc is a younger, albeit somewhat more expensive, option to fill that versatile role. I would heartily endorse his acquisition.

[snively]

I always admired Noc's toughness the half-dozen times I've watched him play, but he also struck me as a high usage, low efficiency player on those scrappy Chicago teams.  I just checked his stats and his  54 eFG% is comparable (actually a bit superior) to Posey's while his rebounding and passing are in line with what Pose and Baby have provided for us recently.  His contract is also tolerable at just under 7 mil per for 3 seasons at the ripe old ages of 30, 31 and 32.  While I can't really weigh in on his defense, as I've only watched him sparingly, I wonder if he could approximate Harpring's brand of physical D, which often bothers and batters talented scorers even if doesn't significantly slow their production. 

I wonder if Sac will be getting better offers than Scal, TA and JR, from a talent and salary stand point.  Sacramento has some terrible long-term salaries that will keep them from making any noise for the next couple years, so I can see them valuing a 6-7 mil salary savings in 2010 over equal talent.  Scal might even space the floor for their fledgling big man duo.

As for the OP: yes, Ainge could have done much better, if even by not wasting money on POB and TA (who I was boosting for at the time, but my long-winded optimism is finally blown away).  Still, KG's injury renders his failure mostly irrelevant and he has slightly better prospects this year, thanks to a superior crop of free agent bigs and a few expiring contracts to shop around.