Could Ainge have improved the Celtics in 2009?

[nickagneta]

I like revisiting the Nocioni idea that Roy and Chris have been talking about.

 Maybe, but I thought Sacramento turned that down because they wanted to keep Nocioni as opposed to unloading his salary.

I heard they weren't in a hurry to trade him, because they thought his deal would be equally tradeable this off-season.  They fully intend to shop him, though, from what I understand.

  Hopefully your version is the more accurate of the two. Trade for Nocioni, sign McDyess, now you're cooking with gas.

I like that idea. I'm for a Nocioni and McDyess offseason. Which begs the question, is McDyess a vet min type guy or are we going to have to spend something like the LLE on him?

[Gunner]

Who can the Celtics trade to make all these great improvements?

We don't have any "extra" talent that might be attractive for a trading partner.

We have limited depth because all of our money is tied up in the Big 3.

If we trade the Big 3 or Rondo/Perk we are breaking up the team.

We are going to lose Davis because we can't afford him. [He will be paid more the the 2 million people hope to pay.]

Powe is out until the 2010 all star break recovering from surgury if we resign him.

Our needs include more depth up front with Davis gone and Powe out and Moore gone.

A back up SF since we never replaced Posey.

A back up PG since Marbury didn't do it, and

A back up SG since House has a player option and could leave. His shooting might attract more money from someone.

So our roster is:

KG
Pierce
Ray
Rondo
Perk

Davis - gone. He leaves as free agent.
Powe - out until allstar break in 2010.
House - has player option so maybe not back.
Scal - how much is he worth in the trade market?
Marbury - not resigned by Celtics
Giddens - has no trade value.
Pruitt - has no trade value.
Moore - not resigned
Walker has no trade value.

So who do we trade to improve?

We have not cap space and nothing to trade unless we break up the team.

Since we are no longer the "first destination" for veterans who will play cheap to win [as we were in 2008], we have no bench and we can't acquire one.

We have no cap space and no one to trade that "OTHER TEAMS WOULD WANT".

Where do we go from here?

[WedmanIsMyHero]

As I just posted elsewhere, I think you are right.  The Celtics are built to have one more shot, next year, then will come a few years where Ainge will really have to earn his money with creative drafting, trades, free agent signings, etc.

[Who]

I like that idea. I'm for a Nocioni and McDyess offseason. Which begs the question, is McDyess a vet min type guy or are we going to have to spend something like the LLE on him?

Possibly the MLE or a large chunk of the MLE. I think his price range could veer hugely this summer. He'll get a lot of interest and I think some teams could offer him the MLE (Cleveland? San Antonio? maybe the Lakers if Odom leaves).

There's a solid possibility that he'll sign for the LLE or lower, but I wouldn't bank on it. I don't think it's a certainty.

[crownsy]

As I just posted elsewhere, I think you are right.  The Celtics are built to have one more shot, next year, then will come a few years where Ainge will really have to earn his money with creative drafting, trades, free agent signings, etc.

not really, if he plays his cards right. If you extend rondo and either trade ray/ get him to sign a short term deal (say two years) you could very easily set it up to have perk and rondo as your building blocks and a whole bunch of cap space in 2012-13 when KG and ray both come off.

[winsomme]

I like revisiting the Nocioni idea that Roy and Chris have been talking about.

 Maybe, but I thought Sacramento turned that down because they wanted to keep Nocioni as opposed to unloading his salary.

I heard they weren't in a hurry to trade him, because they thought his deal would be equally tradeable this off-season.  They fully intend to shop him, though, from what I understand.

  Hopefully your version is the more accurate of the two. Trade for Nocioni, sign McDyess, now you're cooking with gas.

I like that idea. I'm for a Nocioni and McDyess offseason. Which begs the question, is McDyess a vet min type guy or are we going to have to spend something like the LLE on him?

just guessing, but I'd say based on his production that Dice is gonna cost more than the LLE...

but if we can trade to fill the SF position, then we have the LLE and MLE to fill out backup big and backup PG...

[cordobes]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

[WedmanIsMyHero]

Perk and Rondo as building blocks would be great.  And even presume Rondo continues to improve and is one of the top point guards in league (and maybe develops a jump shot as well).  That's not a core that can compete with the LeBron's, D-Wade's, Carmelo's, D. Howard's, etc., of the league.  The Celtics will not just need complementary pieces, they will literally need a new core.

But I actually think we agree.  I think 2012-2013 is about when the Celtics will have the opportunity to really improve.  I think 2010-2011 and 2011-2012 could be long, tough years, especially 2011-2012.

As I just posted elsewhere, I think you are right.  The Celtics are built to have one more shot, next year, then will come a few years where Ainge will really have to earn his money with creative drafting, trades, free agent signings, etc.

not really, if he plays his cards right. If you extend rondo and either trade ray/ get him to sign a short term deal (say two years) you could very easily set it up to have perk and rondo as your building blocks and a whole bunch of cap space in 2012-13 when KG and ray both come off.

[nickagneta]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

But Nocioni would allow Paul to go to the bench without a ton of fall off at the offensive end that we see when Paul left the floor this year. He is very physical and has the tools to be better defensively. If he expends the effort I feel he will be a decent defender because unlike, say, POB, his energy isn't chaotic and wasted on stupid play.

Also, by not trading Ray and keeping him and letting him expire, we have all the money we need to extend Perk and Rondo while still signing Ray to a lesser amount if we want.

[cordobes]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

But Nocioni would allow Paul to go to the bench without a ton of fall off at the offensive end that we see when Paul left the floor this year. He is very physical and has the tools to be better defensively. If he expends the effort I feel he will be a decent defender because unlike, say, POB, his energy isn't chaotic and wasted on stupid play.

Also, by not trading Ray and keeping him and letting him expire, we have all the money we need to extend Perk and Rondo while still signing Ray to a lesser amount if we want.

Nocioni is a 31 years old veteran. He isn't a bad player, but he won't start developing his defence at this age. If anything, it'll start declining. His problem was never the effort, he always gives the effort. But his lateral quickness is mediocre to guard NBA perimeter players. I feel there are better and cheaper players than him available.

Well, of course you can do that - but in that case you're losing the opportunity of adding another player not named Nocioni. Who knows who's going to be available by the deadline?

[winsomme]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

I'd say he is a better help defender than he is an on-ball defender....but that could work okay with our system.

[winsomme]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

But Nocioni would allow Paul to go to the bench without a ton of fall off at the offensive end that we see when Paul left the floor this year. He is very physical and has the tools to be better defensively. If he expends the effort I feel he will be a decent defender because unlike, say, POB, his energy isn't chaotic and wasted on stupid play.

Also, by not trading Ray and keeping him and letting him expire, we have all the money we need to extend Perk and Rondo while still signing Ray to a lesser amount if we want.

Nocioni is a 31 years old veteran. He isn't a bad player, but he won't start developing his defence at this age. If anything, it'll start declining. His problem was never the effort, he always gives the effort. But his lateral quickness is mediocre to guard NBA perimeter players. I feel there are better and cheaper players than him available.

the age/ money combo is a good point. and kinda makes me upset.

they were willing to trade for Nocioni who is due to get about 5-6 million more than Posey over the same time frame?

how does that make sense?

I didn't realize how much he is getting. I might rather just go get Posey back. At least we know how he fits in the system.

[BballTim]

As I just posted elsewhere, I think you are right.  The Celtics are built to have one more shot, next year, then will come a few years where Ainge will really have to earn his money with creative drafting, trades, free agent signings, etc.

  I think our window lasts as long as KG remains an effective player, certainly more than one year.

[nickagneta]

Why is Nocioni so popular here? He's not really a good defender; he's more about high-energy and toughness than defence. I'm not sure if I want his contract, especially considering we'll need money to spend on Rondo.

But Nocioni would allow Paul to go to the bench without a ton of fall off at the offensive end that we see when Paul left the floor this year. He is very physical and has the tools to be better defensively. If he expends the effort I feel he will be a decent defender because unlike, say, POB, his energy isn't chaotic and wasted on stupid play.

Also, by not trading Ray and keeping him and letting him expire, we have all the money we need to extend Perk and Rondo while still signing Ray to a lesser amount if we want.

Nocioni is a 31 years old veteran. He isn't a bad player, but he won't start developing his defence at this age. If anything, it'll start declining. His problem was never the effort, he always gives the effort. But his lateral quickness is mediocre to guard NBA perimeter players. I feel there are better and cheaper players than him available.

the age/ money combo is a good point. and kinda makes me upset.

they were willing to trade for Nocioni who is due to get about 5-6 million more than Posey over the same time frame?

how does that make sense?

I didn't realize how much he is getting. I might rather just go get Posey back. At least we know how he fits in the system.

Nocioni won't even be 30 until late November. He is almost 2 full years younger than Posey. That is probably the reason they would take on his contract. And I think he's a better man defender than either of you are giving him credit for.

[Chris]

Sure he could have.  One guy who wanted to come here:  Chris Andersen.  That move absolutely would have improved our team.  Signing Quinton Ross -- who was without a team, and had to sign a partially guaranteed minimum salary deal late in the off-season -- would have helped, too.

To be fair, Chris Andersen recently said that he chose Denver, because it was where his old mentor lived.  I know someone quoted him as saying he hoped the C's offered him a contract, but that doesn't really prove that he would have chosen Boston over Denver if both teams offered the same vet minimum contract...and we also do not know whether the C's offered him a contract or not.  According to Danny last summer, he offered vet minimum deals to many different players, and for all we know, Andersen was one of them.