Did Doc cost us a championship by going for the 2nd seed?

[BballTim]

Doc overplayed the veterans, because the backup wings he had were either not ready to play significant minutes, crappy, or both.  While I would have liked for him to have rested Pierce and Allen a bit more, I can never fault a coach for trying to win every game he coaches.  It is the GM's responsibility to give him the pieces to be able to win it without running guys into the ground, and Danny whiffed on the backup wing position this year.

  Even with crappy backups a lot of what happened was largely due to KG's injury. Last year in the playoffs Doc tried to have at least one of the big three on the floor all the time (aside from blowouts). This year his big three was a big 2 plus Rondo who's effectiveness is lessened without other threats onthe floor. If he wanted Ray or Paul on the court most of the time then clearly they'll play a ton of minutes.

[Chris]

Doc overplayed the veterans, because the backup wings he had were either not ready to play significant minutes, crappy, or both.  While I would have liked for him to have rested Pierce and Allen a bit more, I can never fault a coach for trying to win every game he coaches.  It is the GM's responsibility to give him the pieces to be able to win it without running guys into the ground, and Danny whiffed on the backup wing position this year.

  Even with crappy backups a lot of what happened was largely due to KG's injury. Last year in the playoffs Doc tried to have at least one of the big three on the floor all the time (aside from blowouts). This year his big three was a big 2 plus Rondo who's effectiveness is lessened without other threats onthe floor. If he wanted Ray or Paul on the court most of the time then clearly they'll play a ton of minutes.

Oh I agree.  I think this team would have been just fine had KG not went down.  I was just trying to say that its really hard to blame Doc for trying to win games, when he simply didn't have the horses to do it how he would like, because of injuries, and a lack of players in general.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Doc overplayed the veterans, because the backup wings he had were either not ready to play significant minutes, crappy, or both.  While I would have liked for him to have rested Pierce and Allen a bit more, I can never fault a coach for trying to win every game he coaches.  It is the GM's responsibility to give him the pieces to be able to win it without running guys into the ground, and Danny whiffed on the backup wing position this year.

The problem with these type of theories is the believe that we would've lost games because Ray and Pierce played less. In fact, I would argue that we lost some games because Pierce ran out of gas towards the end of the game, so you can argue that if he would've played less (like playing him less minutes in the first half for example) would've been more beneficial in winning certain games.

[Chris]

Doc overplayed the veterans, because the backup wings he had were either not ready to play significant minutes, crappy, or both.  While I would have liked for him to have rested Pierce and Allen a bit more, I can never fault a coach for trying to win every game he coaches.  It is the GM's responsibility to give him the pieces to be able to win it without running guys into the ground, and Danny whiffed on the backup wing position this year.

The problem with these type of theories is the believe that we would've lost games because Ray and Pierce played less. In fact, I would argue that we lost some games because Pierce ran out of gas towards the end of the game, so you can argue that if he would've played less (like playing him less minutes in the first half for example) would've been more beneficial in winning certain games.

I agree, but it goes both ways.  We don't know what would have happened if they played Pierce and Allen less (which would mean playing the rookies more).  So yes, they could have won just as many, or even more games, with Pierce and Allen a little more rested.  But we also could have lost significantly more games, where the bench fell apart completely without those guys in there, costing the C's the game. 

Its not like the C's were blowing teams out.  Most of the games were close, and even with Pierce and Allen playing big minutes, the bench was still giving up leads.

The bottom line is, Doc did not have a full deck to work with, and I cannot fault him for trying to win games.  I am always happy with a coach who does everything he can to win every game.  If a player needs rest that badly, he should just sit out.

[Brendan]

Looking at some of the SAS runs from lower playoff seeds, it seems like over the last month the C's should have just played Billy Walker 15 MPG at SF and seen how he did. They also had House and Marbury to get the guards rest as needed.

I don't think the result would have been much different, except maybe we lose game 6 at home as the three seed, and no legendary first round battle with the Bulls. Actually playing Philly in round 1 might have left us fresher for round 2, and ORL (who had a lot of injuries in rd 1 might not get by Philly) - either way its too hard to know - as the lion would say - you don't get to know what would have had happened.

[Vermont Green]

Sorry but I don't buy any of this second-guessing.  It was the Chicago series that burned out Pierce and Allen, not end of the regular season.  Chicago played great and hit some amazing shots to force OT's and win games.  Who knows what would have happened if we played Phili.  It is crazy to say we would have beat them in less games.  What is that based on?  The fact is, even this tired, old, poorly coached, short-handed team, did better against Orlando than the big bad, fully rested Cavs have done.  Maybe it is really Mike Brown who should be called out for letting his team get too rested.

[Jon]

Doc overused key players in the 2nd half of the season.

Pierce and Ray in particular played huge minutes so we could get the 2nd seed.

in 2008 Pierce and Ray sat some games and played reduced minutes in the last couple of weeks in the season.

This year, they played huge minutes right to the end.

Guys like Davis, who had played "sub minutes" were also made to play much more when KG, Scal and other big men were out.

We eventually got home court, but still lost to Orlando.

Home court really didn't make a difference in the Chicago or Orlando series.

Being rested did!

It looked to me, like Ray, Pierce, Rondo and the boys were burned out.

They had played big minutes at the end of the season and even bigger minutes in the great playoff series against the Bulls.

As we now see, Cleveland and the Lakers are beatable.

A well rested Ray, Pierce, Rondo etc could have gone into Orlando and won a game 7.

But a burned out team couldn't win at home.

I hope Doc has learned his lesson.

A rested team without KG wasn't going to win it all.  Simple as that. 

If KG was healthy and the C's lost due to burn out, you'd have an argument. 

However the only real reason we didn't win this year (that we can tell for sure) is KG's injury. 

[nickagneta]

If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."

then I think he might have lost a bunch of respect amongst his starters. Pro athletes don't take well to losing on purpose by having good players sit on benches while lesser plyers are losing games. If after a couple of losses where Ray and Paul played only 30 minutes and JR Giddens and Bill Walker dah played 20 each, the starters didn't start to grumble about how they would't have lost if Doc let them play, I would be very surprised.

It's so easy to say play this one or that one and force these others to sit and who cares if we win. That's easy for us. But stars and pros don't see it that way. Guys like Perk and Rondo and Ray and Paul think they can go 45 minutes every night and through the playoffs and should. The last thing they are thinking is play me less so I can be rested later.

And yes, it is the job of the coach to take charge but it is also the job of the coach to win games and keep a healthy locker room and the respect of his players. Lose the locker room and you lose your job. It is that easy. If the Celtics lost 5-10 more games for the sole benefit of keeping Ray and Rondo and Perk and Paul rested for the playoffs, mentally they may not have been ready for the playoffs because they could have lost a ton of respect for Doc and Doc may have lost their ears and heads, so to say.

I think Doc did the best he could and I challenge any other coach in the league to say they could have won more games or gotten the Celtics any farther than Doc did. I doubt anyone would jump forward to say they could have. 62 wins and going to 7 games in the conference semi's to a team that , except for one unbelieveable shot, could have just swept the Cavs, is [dang] good. They beat a good young Bulls team that played them tough and a very good Magic team that played unreal perimeter defense.

I say, great job Doc, we'll get them next time when we have all our horses healthy. Don't worry about it, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

[twentythree9]

NO.

Without a healthy KG, our defense just isn't up to championship caliber.  Even if Pierce and Allen were fully rested and injury-free, I think we'd be a long shot to win it all without KG.  Yes, Big Baby stepped up and played well.  Jackie Moon had a nice run as well.  However, KG does so many things on the defensive end that go unnoticed, you just can't replace that.  In hindisght, his presence in the paint is what allowed Pierce and Allen to play their men tight and not worry about getting burned... ie, what made them look all of a sudden like great defensive players.  I've always thought that wing men become great defenders whenever they can funnel their man to the shot blocker!!

And, if you don't like that answer, how about we will never find out?

We can second guess last season to death, but just realize there's a reason it's so hard to repeat!  While not perfect, I actually think what Doc did last year was truly amazing.  We were depleted and could've given up a lot sooner, the resolve we had in the Chicago series was just awesome!

[EJPLAYA]

The only thing that cost us a championship this year was KG and Powe's knee. Stop blaming the coach that was able to get us 62 wins with the injury plagued lineup he was dealt, along with rookies who weren't close to being ready to contribute. They did the best they could and I believe in Doc even more after this year.

[wdleehi]

Can't dump this on his lap.  If he had someone to trust in a playoff run on the bench, he would of played them (or deserved the blame for not)

[BudweiserCeltic]

If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."

then I think he might have lost a bunch of respect amongst his starters. Pro athletes don't take well to losing on purpose by having good players sit on benches while lesser plyers are losing games. If after a couple of losses where Ray and Paul played only 30 minutes and JR Giddens and Bill Walker dah played 20 each, the starters didn't start to grumble about how they would't have lost if Doc let them play, I would be very surprised.

It's so easy to say play this one or that one and force these others to sit and who cares if we win. That's easy for us. But stars and pros don't see it that way. Guys like Perk and Rondo and Ray and Paul think they can go 45 minutes every night and through the playoffs and should. The last thing they are thinking is play me less so I can be rested later.

And yes, it is the job of the coach to take charge but it is also the job of the coach to win games and keep a healthy locker room and the respect of his players. Lose the locker room and you lose your job. It is that easy. If the Celtics lost 5-10 more games for the sole benefit of keeping Ray and Rondo and Perk and Paul rested for the playoffs, mentally they may not have been ready for the playoffs because they could have lost a ton of respect for Doc and Doc may have lost their ears and heads, so to say.

I think Doc did the best he could and I challenge any other coach in the league to say they could have won more games or gotten the Celtics any farther than Doc did. I doubt anyone would jump forward to say they could have. 62 wins and going to 7 games in the conference semi's to a team that , except for one unbelieveable shot, could have just swept the Cavs, is [dang] good. They beat a good young Bulls team that played them tough and a very good Magic team that played unreal perimeter defense.

I say, great job Doc, we'll get them next time when we have all our horses healthy. Don't worry about it, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Funny because I remember Pierce saying time and time again that he needed to play less, that players like Walker should play more, and Doc kept telling that he needs to find ways to give him more rest, yet he always failed to.

It's all about balance... "losing a ton of more games" is quite a stretch.

[EJPLAYA]

If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."

then I think he might have lost a bunch of respect amongst his starters. Pro athletes don't take well to losing on purpose by having good players sit on benches while lesser plyers are losing games. If after a couple of losses where Ray and Paul played only 30 minutes and JR Giddens and Bill Walker dah played 20 each, the starters didn't start to grumble about how they would't have lost if Doc let them play, I would be very surprised.

It's so easy to say play this one or that one and force these others to sit and who cares if we win. That's easy for us. But stars and pros don't see it that way. Guys like Perk and Rondo and Ray and Paul think they can go 45 minutes every night and through the playoffs and should. The last thing they are thinking is play me less so I can be rested later.

And yes, it is the job of the coach to take charge but it is also the job of the coach to win games and keep a healthy locker room and the respect of his players. Lose the locker room and you lose your job. It is that easy. If the Celtics lost 5-10 more games for the sole benefit of keeping Ray and Rondo and Perk and Paul rested for the playoffs, mentally they may not have been ready for the playoffs because they could have lost a ton of respect for Doc and Doc may have lost their ears and heads, so to say.

I think Doc did the best he could and I challenge any other coach in the league to say they could have won more games or gotten the Celtics any farther than Doc did. I doubt anyone would jump forward to say they could have. 62 wins and going to 7 games in the conference semi's to a team that , except for one unbelieveable shot, could have just swept the Cavs, is [dang] good. They beat a good young Bulls team that played them tough and a very good Magic team that played unreal perimeter defense.

I say, great job Doc, we'll get them next time when we have all our horses healthy. Don't worry about it, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Funny because I remember Pierce saying time and time again that he needed to play less, that players like Walker should play more, and Doc kept telling that he needs to find ways to give him more rest, yet he always failed to.

It's all about balance... "losing a ton of more games" is quite a stretch.

Doc didn't play them more because they weren't good enough to get minutes. Doc WANTED to  give the starters more rest, but his first priority is to win games. Injuries and lack of depth didn't allow him to rest them like he wanted. He knew the only chance that we had of competing in the playoffs was to have home court as long as possible. Your hatred of Doc is pretty obvious here.

[BudweiserCeltic]

EJ, that's complete nonsense. Since day one I have been one of Doc's biggest supporters. But I'm dealing with facts here, even Doc said that he had to force himself to play the bench more but rarely kept his word. We're not making stuff up here, this was widely reported with quotes from himself.

As I said, the importance was balance. The first priority shouldn't have been to win games, and why earlier in the thread I said that Doc simply lost sight of what was important.

Not that I'm blaming Doc or anything for not winning, but this was certainly a mistake by his part.

[nickagneta]

If Doc, once KG and Powe and Scal went down, had addressed the team and said:

"Listen, we're going with the philososphy that the starters are going to play limited minutes, like tops of 30-35 per game, and we're just going to have to rely on Steph, Mikki, Billy, Eddie, and some of you other guys to pick up the slack. Doing this could mean we lose a lot more games and don't get the 2nd seed, but we will be fresh come playoff time when our starters are going to have to go 40 minutes per game each."

then I think he might have lost a bunch of respect amongst his starters. Pro athletes don't take well to losing on purpose by having good players sit on benches while lesser plyers are losing games. If after a couple of losses where Ray and Paul played only 30 minutes and JR Giddens and Bill Walker dah played 20 each, the starters didn't start to grumble about how they would't have lost if Doc let them play, I would be very surprised.

It's so easy to say play this one or that one and force these others to sit and who cares if we win. That's easy for us. But stars and pros don't see it that way. Guys like Perk and Rondo and Ray and Paul think they can go 45 minutes every night and through the playoffs and should. The last thing they are thinking is play me less so I can be rested later.

And yes, it is the job of the coach to take charge but it is also the job of the coach to win games and keep a healthy locker room and the respect of his players. Lose the locker room and you lose your job. It is that easy. If the Celtics lost 5-10 more games for the sole benefit of keeping Ray and Rondo and Perk and Paul rested for the playoffs, mentally they may not have been ready for the playoffs because they could have lost a ton of respect for Doc and Doc may have lost their ears and heads, so to say.

I think Doc did the best he could and I challenge any other coach in the league to say they could have won more games or gotten the Celtics any farther than Doc did. I doubt anyone would jump forward to say they could have. 62 wins and going to 7 games in the conference semi's to a team that , except for one unbelieveable shot, could have just swept the Cavs, is [dang] good. They beat a good young Bulls team that played them tough and a very good Magic team that played unreal perimeter defense.

I say, great job Doc, we'll get them next time when we have all our horses healthy. Don't worry about it, we did the best we could under the circumstances.

Funny because I remember Pierce saying time and time again that he needed to play less, that players like Walker should play more, and Doc kept telling that he needs to find ways to give him more rest, yet he always failed to.

It's all about balance... "losing a ton of more games" is quite a stretch.

It's one thing to say those words after playing yourself into the ground it's another to think you are going to need that rest beforehand.

What I am saying is if he took that "we'll play scrubs and reserve the minutes of the starters" philosophy to the club ahead of time then the starters wouldn't have been happy, especially if that philosophy started costing them wins.

To come back at me with "but Doc said this and Paul said that" after Paul and Ray had already played two straight months of 40+ minutes is not exactly a fair counter argument in my mind. I didn't hear quotes of Paul saying when people went down that he still only needed to play X minutes because otherwise he would get too tired for the playoffs. My guess is that the attitude was what it always is when a major player goes down, the other major players think they had better tighten the bootstraps, be prepared for more monutes and everyone will work harder and longer to achieve the same goal. And when KG went down that goal was best overall record and the number one seed.