LeBron's prolific rate of playoff free throw attempts

[crownsy]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet. When I find a video of the game I will bring back exact times and plays. Hell early on I remember at least two different plays in the game where LeBron went to the line on calls that were very ticky tack but that the Magic weren't getting on the other end while getting hammered. The first quarter was ridiculousl called in favor of the Cavs. There was no consistency whatsoever. Both teams came out agressive and physical but the Cavs and specifically lebron got calls whereas similar plays on the other end were ignored.

I agree, it was not called the same on both ends of the floor. I love how he elbos the guy(dont think it was intentional) and nothing happens, and we all know what was called on the same play the game before. I would think that should give credibility that for whatever reason, the refs looked the other way. I wont buy that it was missed either, they never miss anything involved with james. HE has eyes on him every second of the game.

why do you suppose they didn't call Howard for nearly knocking Z out in the second quarter with his incidental elbow to the chops under this theory?

one would think they would be looking for Howard to do that kind of stuff to rack up his fouls.

I am by no means saying that the refs are trying to predetermine game outcomes or anything like that, though I know you are saying I am. I just want to make that clear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in regards to game outcome. I am more a believer in incompetence than I am Stern telling the refs what to do.

But I am a huge believer that the refs have players they look the other way for and who the give the benefit of the doubt to just about all the time. Michael Jordan received this partiality after his first 4-5 years in the league or so. Dwayne Wade definitely received this type of partiality during the Heat's run to a championship. Lebron get this treatment more than any other single player ever and I think it's a disgrace and I think it shows up in PFs called against him and the amount of times he goes to the line. 

Oh no man, i agree 100% he gets star treatment to the point that its sickening, i was more replying to the second post under yours about how the ref's overlooked his elbow to pietrus face because it was a lebron. I think it was more because the elbow was incidental, as was howards to Z earlier.

I thought both were good no calls.

[nickagneta]

Sorry, typo, typing to fast.

I meant I know you are not trying to say I am.

Sorry crownsy, I type to fast for my own good sometimes. I think u know what I mean.

[angryguy77]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet. When I find a video of the game I will bring back exact times and plays. Hell early on I remember at least two different plays in the game where LeBron went to the line on calls that were very ticky tack but that the Magic weren't getting on the other end while getting hammered. The first quarter was ridiculousl called in favor of the Cavs. There was no consistency whatsoever. Both teams came out agressive and physical but the Cavs and specifically lebron got calls whereas similar plays on the other end were ignored.

I agree, it was not called the same on both ends of the floor. I love how he elbos the guy(dont think it was intentional) and nothing happens, and we all know what was called on the same play the game before. I would think that should give credibility that for whatever reason, the refs looked the other way. I wont buy that it was missed either, they never miss anything involved with james. HE has eyes on him every second of the game.

why do you suppose they didn't call Howard for nearly knocking Z out in the second quarter with his incidental elbow to the chops under this theory?

one would think they would be looking for Howard to do that kind of stuff to rack up his fouls.

I am by no means saying that the refs are trying to predetermine game outcomes or anything like that, though I know you are saying I am. I just want to make that clear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in regards to game outcome. I am more a believer in incompetence than I am Stern telling the refs what to do.

But I am a huge believer that the refs have players they look the other way for and who the give the benefit of the doubt to just about all the time. Michael Jordan received this partiality after his first 4-5 years in the league or so. Dwayne Wade definitely received this type of partiality during the Heat's run to a championship. Lebron get this treatment more than any other single player ever and I think it's a disgrace and I think it shows up in PFs called against him and the amount of times he goes to the line. 

I hope you dont think I was in any way saying that you were in on the conspiracy theory. I get what you were saying, I fall in with wha tyou believe as well. There may not be a conspiracy, but they do look the other way when it comes to certain players.

[nickagneta]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet. When I find a video of the game I will bring back exact times and plays. Hell early on I remember at least two different plays in the game where LeBron went to the line on calls that were very ticky tack but that the Magic weren't getting on the other end while getting hammered. The first quarter was ridiculousl called in favor of the Cavs. There was no consistency whatsoever. Both teams came out agressive and physical but the Cavs and specifically lebron got calls whereas similar plays on the other end were ignored.

I agree, it was not called the same on both ends of the floor. I love how he elbos the guy(dont think it was intentional) and nothing happens, and we all know what was called on the same play the game before. I would think that should give credibility that for whatever reason, the refs looked the other way. I wont buy that it was missed either, they never miss anything involved with james. HE has eyes on him every second of the game.

why do you suppose they didn't call Howard for nearly knocking Z out in the second quarter with his incidental elbow to the chops under this theory?

one would think they would be looking for Howard to do that kind of stuff to rack up his fouls.

I am by no means saying that the refs are trying to predetermine game outcomes or anything like that, though I know you are saying I am. I just want to make that clear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in regards to game outcome. I am more a believer in incompetence than I am Stern telling the refs what to do.

But I am a huge believer that the refs have players they look the other way for and who the give the benefit of the doubt to just about all the time. Michael Jordan received this partiality after his first 4-5 years in the league or so. Dwayne Wade definitely received this type of partiality during the Heat's run to a championship. Lebron get this treatment more than any other single player ever and I think it's a disgrace and I think it shows up in PFs called against him and the amount of times he goes to the line. 

I hope you dont think I was in any way saying that you were in on the conspiracy theory. I get what you were saying, I fall in with wha tyou believe as well. There may not be a conspiracy, but they do look the other way when it comes to certain players.

No I don't think anyone was saying I was. I just thought I needed to make the distinction between conspiracy theory of predetermination and what I think is partialit towards certain players. Specifically LeBron who I think the refs handle ridiculously. I really am surprised he doesn't average at least two charges a game considering the amount of people he runs over. And that's just charges. Yet he averages less than 2 FOULS per game, nevermind charges.

[nickagneta]

Here's a prediction, given the game in Cleveland and its a Cavs elimination game, I say LeBron goes to the line a MINIMUM of 20 times. He's going to know to take it to the hole and the refs are going to bail him out. 20 times minimum.

[angryguy77]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet. When I find a video of the game I will bring back exact times and plays. Hell early on I remember at least two different plays in the game where LeBron went to the line on calls that were very ticky tack but that the Magic weren't getting on the other end while getting hammered. The first quarter was ridiculousl called in favor of the Cavs. There was no consistency whatsoever. Both teams came out agressive and physical but the Cavs and specifically lebron got calls whereas similar plays on the other end were ignored.

I agree, it was not called the same on both ends of the floor. I love how he elbos the guy(dont think it was intentional) and nothing happens, and we all know what was called on the same play the game before. I would think that should give credibility that for whatever reason, the refs looked the other way. I wont buy that it was missed either, they never miss anything involved with james. HE has eyes on him every second of the game.

why do you suppose they didn't call Howard for nearly knocking Z out in the second quarter with his incidental elbow to the chops under this theory?

one would think they would be looking for Howard to do that kind of stuff to rack up his fouls.

I am by no means saying that the refs are trying to predetermine game outcomes or anything like that, though I know you are saying I am. I just want to make that clear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in regards to game outcome. I am more a believer in incompetence than I am Stern telling the refs what to do.

But I am a huge believer that the refs have players they look the other way for and who the give the benefit of the doubt to just about all the time. Michael Jordan received this partiality after his first 4-5 years in the league or so. Dwayne Wade definitely received this type of partiality during the Heat's run to a championship. Lebron get this treatment more than any other single player ever and I think it's a disgrace and I think it shows up in PFs called against him and the amount of times he goes to the line. 

Oh no man, i agree 100% he gets star treatment to the point that its sickening, i was more replying to the second post under yours about how the ref's overlooked his elbow to pietrus face because it was a lebron. I think it was more because the elbow was incidental, as was howards to Z earlier.

I thought both were good no calls.

His was incidental, but so was the one that was given to mo and they called it. I'm not saying James should have been t'd up, but please explain to me how one guy almost gets thrown out of the game and one doesn't even get looked at for doing the same thing. It blatant and they arent even trying anymore to hide the bias.  Dwight's hit on Z wasn't the same.

I'm not saying there are back room meetings going on to determin who wins, but there is a bias that favors lebrons team and other teams with stars to a lesser degree. Its the inaction of stern and the league to fix the bad officiating that the problem. I believe he likes it this way because it make players look better than they really are which attract more fans and $$$. Stern is all about one thing and one thing only and that is $. Hes arrogant and the NBA needs to find a guy to run the league that can bring money into the game and keep its integrity intact at the sametime. Stern does not have this ability.

[nickagneta]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet. When I find a video of the game I will bring back exact times and plays. Hell early on I remember at least two different plays in the game where LeBron went to the line on calls that were very ticky tack but that the Magic weren't getting on the other end while getting hammered. The first quarter was ridiculousl called in favor of the Cavs. There was no consistency whatsoever. Both teams came out agressive and physical but the Cavs and specifically lebron got calls whereas similar plays on the other end were ignored.

I agree, it was not called the same on both ends of the floor. I love how he elbos the guy(dont think it was intentional) and nothing happens, and we all know what was called on the same play the game before. I would think that should give credibility that for whatever reason, the refs looked the other way. I wont buy that it was missed either, they never miss anything involved with james. HE has eyes on him every second of the game.

why do you suppose they didn't call Howard for nearly knocking Z out in the second quarter with his incidental elbow to the chops under this theory?

one would think they would be looking for Howard to do that kind of stuff to rack up his fouls.

I am by no means saying that the refs are trying to predetermine game outcomes or anything like that, though I know you are saying I am. I just want to make that clear. I'm not a conspiracy theorist in regards to game outcome. I am more a believer in incompetence than I am Stern telling the refs what to do.

But I am a huge believer that the refs have players they look the other way for and who the give the benefit of the doubt to just about all the time. Michael Jordan received this partiality after his first 4-5 years in the league or so. Dwayne Wade definitely received this type of partiality during the Heat's run to a championship. Lebron get this treatment more than any other single player ever and I think it's a disgrace and I think it shows up in PFs called against him and the amount of times he goes to the line. 

Oh no man, i agree 100% he gets star treatment to the point that its sickening, i was more replying to the second post under yours about how the ref's overlooked his elbow to pietrus face because it was a lebron. I think it was more because the elbow was incidental, as was howards to Z earlier.

I thought both were good no calls.

His was incidental, but so was the one that was given to mo and they called it. I'm not saying James should have been t'd up, but please explain to me how one guy almost gets thrown out of the game and one doesn't even get looked at for doing the same thing. It blatant and they arent even trying anymore to hide the bias.  Dwight's hit on Z wasn't the same.

I'm not saying there are back room meetings going on to determin who wins, but there is a bias that favors lebrons team and other teams with stars to a lesser degree. Its the inaction of stern and the league to fix the bad officiating that the problem. I believe he likes it this way because it make players look better than they really are which attract more fans and $$$. Stern is all about one thing and one thing only and that is $. Hes arrogant and the NBA needs to find a guy to run the league that can bring money into the game and keep its integrity intact at the sametime. Stern does not have this ability.

I think LeBron's was probably incidental but it was an elbow above the neck. Remember Perk's flagrant for hitting someone with a forearm in the chin while looking the other way(was that Pietrus)? Well the league rescinded it the next day as incidental. I think all hit to the head with elbows should follow the letter of the law and be reviewable and called flagrant. Then let the league make the decision to rescind later.

[cordobes]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet.

The "trip over his own feet" I can't identify. When has that happened?

I strongly disagree that he should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 for the elbow. We have a topic on that play and I share the consensual opinion that a flagrant was absolutely unwarranted. I think that suggesting that LeBron should get a flagrant 1 (at the minimum!!) for that play definitely weakens your stance that he gets more favourable treatment than anybody in the league history.

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

[Fafnir]

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

I have to agree with regards to Pietrus. He's been allowed to hand check and ride LeBron a lot.

Speaking of officiating isn't it hilarious they call defensive three seconds twice early in the game then mysteriously forget to call it ever again.

[guava_wrench]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet.

The "trip over his own feet" I can't identify. When has that happened?

I strongly disagree that he should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 for the elbow. We have a topic on that play and I share the consensual opinion that a flagrant was absolutely unwarranted. I think that suggesting that LeBron should get a flagrant 1 (at the minimum!!) for that play definitely weakens your stance that he gets more favourable treatment than anybody in the league history.

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

This cannot be! There must be favoritism and star treatment for James!

Though the Hedo stuff would make sense. I mean, he is the Michael Jordan of Turkey.

[nickagneta]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet.

The "trip over his own feet" I can't identify. When has that happened?

I strongly disagree that he should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 for the elbow. We have a topic on that play and I share the consensual opinion that a flagrant was absolutely unwarranted. I think that suggesting that LeBron should get a flagrant 1 (at the minimum!!) for that play definitely weakens your stance that he gets more favourable treatment than anybody in the league history.

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

So my opinion on one play that doesn't jive with your's or what some others think suddenly makes the credibility of my entire argument incredulous??

You know cor, I could do the same thing and simply say that since you aren't among the majority that believe that LeBron gets special treatment then any counter argument you make lacks any bit of credibility because you must be either blind or an incredible LeBron fan.

But I didnt do that.

I gave you two exaamples that occurred late in the game and you claim to not be able to see one and disagree with the other. Why not leave it at that. We were talking specifics after all and I have yet to locate a full video of the game so I can review it and give you extremely specific examples of LeBron getting calls.

If you want to believe that the stats I provided don't at least point to the possibility that Lebron gets preferential treatment and that it points only towards the fact that Lebron at 24 is better than just about any other player in the history of the game at drawing fouls and simultaneously playing All-NBA Defensive first team quality defense while never fouling, yeah, you go ahead and believe that. Because even the best player that ever lived, Michael Jordan, didn't have FTA per game numbers as high and personal foul numbers that low and he was a six time MVP and like 10 time All NBA Defensive 1st team and 1 time DPOY.

I'm done. Obviously you didn't want to discuss this maturely.

[cordobes]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet.

The "trip over his own feet" I can't identify. When has that happened?

I strongly disagree that he should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 for the elbow. We have a topic on that play and I share the consensual opinion that a flagrant was absolutely unwarranted. I think that suggesting that LeBron should get a flagrant 1 (at the minimum!!) for that play definitely weakens your stance that he gets more favourable treatment than anybody in the league history.

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

So my opinion on one play that doesn't jive with your's or what some others think suddenly makes the credibility of my entire argument incredulous??

You know cor, I could do the same thing and simply say that since you aren't among the majority that believe that LeBron gets special treatment then any counter argument you make lacks any bit of credibility because you must be either blind or an incredible LeBron fan.

But I didnt do that.

I gave you two exaamples that occurred late in the game and you claim to not be able to see one and disagree with the other. Why not leave it at that. We were talking specifics after all and I have yet to locate a full video of the game so I can review it and give you extremely specific examples of LeBron getting calls.

If you want to believe that the stats I provided don't at least point to the possibility that Lebron gets preferential treatment and that it points only towards the fact that Lebron at 24 is better than just about any other player in the history of the game at drawing fouls and simultaneously playing All-NBA Defensive first team quality defense while never fouling, yeah, you go ahead and believe that. Because even the best player that ever lived, Michael Jordan, didn't have FTA per game numbers as high and personal foul numbers that low and he was a six time MVP and like 10 time All NBA Defensive 1st team and 1 time DPOY.

I'm done. Obviously you didn't want to discuss this maturely.

You keep making a strawman argument.

Let me remember what I actually wrote:


Of course those are illogical conclusions. The only logical conclusion you can achieve by checking stats is that:

- either Lebron draws fouls at a higher rate than anyone else on history because he's extremely good doing it or the refs treat him differently than other superstars.

Now, to say if it's the 1st or the 2nd case, you actually need to break film; stats are obviously not enough.


In fact, I say it can be any of the two cases very explicitly. It's quite telling you try to accuse me of saying the precise opposite of what I actually said, isn't it?

The reason I'm not able to see one is because you didn't explain when the play occurred. At which minute was it?

Anyway, all this discussion and we're yet to see any evidence that LeBron gets such an incredible amount of favourable calls. More: I presented a video with every play and you were unable to point out a single non-call. I can't say I'm surprised though.

[vinnie]

If Lebron played here he would be the greatest player in the history of the world. Fans are funny.

[GLS]

If Lebron played here he would be the greatest player in the history of the world. Fans are funny.

I have no problem with LeBron being the greatest player in the history of the world. 

I do have a problem with the (historically) unusual number of FT attempts and number of fouls that he "commits" in a game.

But aside from Edited.  Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.ing about it on some message board, there isn't much I can do about it. 

[nickagneta]

Without going back and watching the game to remember, I will give you two. LeBron's trip over his own feet and his elbow to Pietrus' head that both occured within the last couple of minutes of the game. LeBron should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 on the elbow and he should never have been sent to the line for tripping over his own feet.

The "trip over his own feet" I can't identify. When has that happened?

I strongly disagree that he should have gotten a minimum flagrant 1 for the elbow. We have a topic on that play and I share the consensual opinion that a flagrant was absolutely unwarranted. I think that suggesting that LeBron should get a flagrant 1 (at the minimum!!) for that play definitely weakens your stance that he gets more favourable treatment than anybody in the league history.

Btw, Cavs fans are very unhappy with the officiating and I think they have a point. Even when it comes to LeBron, Pietrus was allowed to be very physical, bumping him in almost every drive (and I like that and I'm happy the refs are allowing some physicality). I'd even say that Hedo is getting more touch fouls on the perimeter than LeBron.

So my opinion on one play that doesn't jive with your's or what some others think suddenly makes the credibility of my entire argument incredulous??

You know cor, I could do the same thing and simply say that since you aren't among the majority that believe that LeBron gets special treatment then any counter argument you make lacks any bit of credibility because you must be either blind or an incredible LeBron fan.

But I didnt do that.

I gave you two exaamples that occurred late in the game and you claim to not be able to see one and disagree with the other. Why not leave it at that. We were talking specifics after all and I have yet to locate a full video of the game so I can review it and give you extremely specific examples of LeBron getting calls.

If you want to believe that the stats I provided don't at least point to the possibility that Lebron gets preferential treatment and that it points only towards the fact that Lebron at 24 is better than just about any other player in the history of the game at drawing fouls and simultaneously playing All-NBA Defensive first team quality defense while never fouling, yeah, you go ahead and believe that. Because even the best player that ever lived, Michael Jordan, didn't have FTA per game numbers as high and personal foul numbers that low and he was a six time MVP and like 10 time All NBA Defensive 1st team and 1 time DPOY.

I'm done. Obviously you didn't want to discuss this maturely.

You keep making a strawman argument.

Let me remember what I actually wrote:


Of course those are illogical conclusions. The only logical conclusion you can achieve by checking stats is that:

- either Lebron draws fouls at a higher rate than anyone else on history because he's extremely good doing it or the refs treat him differently than other superstars.

Now, to say if it's the 1st or the 2nd case, you actually need to break film; stats are obviously not enough.


In fact, I say it can be any of the two cases very explicitly. It's quite telling you try to accuse me of saying the precise opposite of what I actually said, isn't it?

The reason I'm not able to see one is because you didn't explain when the play occurred. At which minute was it?

Anyway, all this discussion and we're yet to see any evidence that LeBron gets such an incredible amount of favourable calls. More: I presented a video with every play and you were unable to point out a single non-call. I can't say I'm surprised though.

The fact that you are calling my argument "a straw man" argument, fallacious, and illogical and that I and it lacks credibility leads me to believe that even though you admit that the evidence could point to the fact that Lebron receives favoritism that you don't, in fact, believe it does.

And if you read my statement:

If you want to believe that the stats I provided don't at least point to the possibility that Lebron gets preferential treatment and that it points only towards the fact that Lebron at 24 is better than just about any other player in the history of the game at drawing fouls and simultaneously playing All-NBA Defensive first team quality defense while never fouling, yeah, you go ahead and believe that.

I never said anything about what you said but what you BELIEVE!! Big difference.

As for your hand picked video of either one specific game or a group of specific plays that were put together to prove specifically your point. That's rather humorous. You can watch last night's game and only come out of it thinking Pietrus gets away with a lot of hand checks and can't see some of the horribly obvious calls for LeBron that many, many posters on this sight have admitted to seeing in a couple of the threads that were about last nights game.

Okay, you win. The officiating for LeBron is the same as everyone else and he just happens on a statistical basis to be about 30% better than the best player of all-time when it comes to getting fouls and getting called for fouls even though they have nearly identical games.