Author Topic: Leon Powe trade possibilities  (Read 6075 times)

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Leon Powe trade possibilities
« on: May 25, 2009, 09:35:47 AM »

Offline cornbread

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Could someone knowledgeable on the subject explain the NBA rules regarding signing-and-trading Leon Powe?

Are any of these examples possible?  I used Boris Diaw in the examples because he is making $9 million per season.

1.  Sign Powe for $9 million and trade him to Charlotte for Boris Diaw.

2.  Sign Powe for $2 million and trade him along with Tony Allen and Brian Scalabrine for Boris Diaw.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 09:41:56 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I don't know if the Boris Diaw one is possible but neither one is certainly probable. Remember the Celtics would consider themselves lucky if Powe were healthy come the All-Star break...so no one is gonna trade for a injured Leon Powe before he proves he can still play, this is his 23rd knee surgery after all.

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like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2009, 09:52:18 AM »

Offline moiso

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Diaw is kind of equivalent to Big Baby.  And I think Big Baby is going to be paid a lot less than Diaw.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2009, 09:53:49 AM »

Offline TradeProposalDude

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Could someone knowledgeable on the subject explain the NBA rules regarding signing-and-trading Leon Powe?

Are any of these examples possible?  I used Boris Diaw in the examples because he is making $9 million per season.

1.  Sign Powe for $9 million and trade him to Charlotte for Boris Diaw.

2.  Sign Powe for $2 million and trade him along with Tony Allen and Brian Scalabrine for Boris Diaw.
No team in their right mind would give Leon Powe $9MIL/year, even if it's just for one year, because he isn't that good. At least he hasn't shown that type of consistency over a long stretch of time.

I'd love to have Boris Diaw, but what makes you think Charlotte would give him up just like that? He's the main reason Charlotte almost became a playoff team this year.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2009, 10:19:11 AM »

Offline MBz

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I think Leon is the ultimate Celtics Kool-aid guy.  We think his value is a lot higher then what it is.  Leon Powe will not be traded if resigned this off-season.  Why would a team want a guy who is going to sit until at least the all-star break?  Also 9 mil is a ridiculous amount, and 2 mil may be pushing it for a guy who will be inactive for 50 games.
do it

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2009, 10:25:07 AM »

Offline indeedproceed

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I think 2 million uninsured is pushing it for a guy who will be inactive for 50 games...we'll have the contract insured, and I doubt it will be longer than 1 year.

The thing I'm wondering is if we sign him for a min contract this season, do we still have his bird rights next off season?

"You've gotta respect a 15-percent 3-point shooter. A guy
like that is always lethal." - Evan 'The God' Turner

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 10:34:44 AM »

Offline cdif911

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I think 2 million uninsured is pushing it for a guy who will be inactive for 50 games...we'll have the contract insured, and I doubt it will be longer than 1 year.

The thing I'm wondering is if we sign him for a min contract this season, do we still have his bird rights next off season?

Someone get Roy on this stat

(also I did a tiny bit of research and I love this line:

"77. Can a team sign a player using the sign-and-trade rule and then say, "Ha ha, we fooled you. We're not trading you!"?
No. A sign-and-trade is treated like a single, atomic transaction, not two separate transactions between which one party can change its mind. The sign-and-trade clause makes the contract invalid if a trade to the specified team does not take place within 48 hours."

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm )

When you love life, life loves you right back


Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 10:43:44 AM »

Offline 2short

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Leon has no trade value with the injury.  kind of what happened with ta last year

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 05:39:24 PM »

Offline waltzero

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Teams around the league do know that Leon is a very nice bench player. Phil Jackson always had great things to say about him for example. Everybody loves a blue collar garbage man off the bench swallowing up offensive and defensive rebounds.

Normally a guy rehabbing a knee wouldn't have value, but in this market...

It's more like he'd be signed to a minimum or very low 1 year + 1 year team option deal. Then you include the league allowed ~3 million.

You basically include more cash than his entire salary and some poor team will be willing to wait on him.

Leon+cash/Tony, Leon+cash/Tony/Gabe, Leon+cash/Tony/Giddens or anything like that is the sort of package we're looking at offering people I bet.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 05:49:18 PM »

Offline waltzero

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You know, I am kind of surprised somebody hasn't tried what the OP is talking about before. At least, I don't think anyone has?

Maybe somebody will do it this offseason? It could make financial sense for some desperate team to way overpay one guy for a year just to ditch a guy with multiple years left.

It'd be like the Lakers signing Trevor Ariza to a one year, 10+ million deal, or whatever it takes just to trade him to the Clippers for Baron Davis.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 06:06:40 PM »

Offline jambr380

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You know, I am kind of surprised somebody hasn't tried what the OP is talking about before. At least, I don't think anyone has?

Maybe somebody will do it this offseason? It could make financial sense for some desperate team to way overpay one guy for a year just to ditch a guy with multiple years left.

It'd be like the Lakers signing Trevor Ariza to a one year, 10+ million deal, or whatever it takes just to trade him to the Clippers for Baron Davis.

I was about to reply with what you said, since everybody else that replied to this thread thought that someone really would give Leon $9 mill. I have to assume there is something in the small print that would prevent this from happening, like you can't sign a guy for more than the mid-level exception if you are using him in a sign and trade, but I don't know.

But like Cornbread, I would like to know from someone knowledgable the by-laws on something like this...

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 08:00:32 PM »

Offline Fan from VT

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You know, I am kind of surprised somebody hasn't tried what the OP is talking about before. At least, I don't think anyone has?

Maybe somebody will do it this offseason? It could make financial sense for some desperate team to way overpay one guy for a year just to ditch a guy with multiple years left.

It'd be like the Lakers signing Trevor Ariza to a one year, 10+ million deal, or whatever it takes just to trade him to the Clippers for Baron Davis.

I was about to reply with what you said, since everybody else that replied to this thread thought that someone really would give Leon $9 mill. I have to assume there is something in the small print that would prevent this from happening, like you can't sign a guy for more than the mid-level exception if you are using him in a sign and trade, but I don't know.

But like Cornbread, I would like to know from someone knowledgable the by-laws on something like this...



there is a clause in the CBA to prevent this from happening: the BYC contract (base year compensation) clause. It basically works something like this:

-If a team is over the cap, salary of the player(s) going out have to be within 125% + $100,000 of each other.
-If a player is signed or extended and gets a raise of more than 20%, then that player is a BYC player.
-When a trade involves a BYC player, the receiving team of the player counts the full salary of the BYC player, while the sending team only counts half the salary
-since half the salary is really never within 125% of the other player involved in a trade, this prevents a trade like the Powe for Diaw from happening, unless a 3rd under the cap team is involved or there are many other contracts involved.

Larry Coon:
Quote
What is "Base Year Compensation?" How does base year compensation affect trades? Why does it exist?

Base year compensation (BYC) prevents another salary cap loophole. Without BYC, a team over the salary cap that wants to trade a player, but can't because of the Traded Player exception (which says teams can't take back more than 125% of the salary they trade away), could just sign the player to a new contract that fits within the desired range, then do the trade. BYC says "if you re-sign a player and give him a big raise, then for a period of time his trade value will be lower than his actual salary."

BYC defines the salary that's used to compare players for compliance under the Traded Player exception (see question number 68 for more information about the Traded Player exception). Usually the salary used for comparison is the player's actual salary. But under either of the following circumstances, a different salary is used when comparing salaries for trading purposes:

    * The team is over the salary cap, used the Larry Bird or Early Bird exception to re-sign the player, and the player received a raise greater than 20% (unless it's the minimum salary).
    * The team is over the salary cap, it extended the player's rookie scale contract, and the player received a raise greater than 20%.

If either of the above apply, then the player is considered a base year player. A player remains a base year player for six months, or until June 30, whichever comes later. When trading a base year player, the salary used for comparison is the player's previous salary, or 50% of the first-year salary in his new contract, whichever is greater.

Here is an example of a BYC calculation: A player earned $2 million in 2004-05, after which he became a free agent. He then signs a new contract (re-signing with his previous team, which is over the salary cap) starting at $9 million. This player qualifies for BYC, so his trade value is the greater of his previous salary ($2 million) or 50% of his new salary ($4.5 million), or $4.5 million. So this player, who actually earns $9 million, is worth $4.5 million for trading purposes.

When comparing salaries for trade, teams use their own player's BYC value and the other player's full salary, even if the other player is also BYC. Here is a simple example -- two $5 million players, both of whom are re-signed (by teams over the cap) for $10 million. Both players become base year players whose base year amount is $5 million (50% of the new salary). If the teams want to trade these players for each other they compare their player's base year amount to the other player's full salary. So each team can take back a maximum of 125% plus $100,000 of their player's $5 million base year amount, or $6.35 million. They compare $6.35 million to the other player's full $10 million. $10 million is way too high, so this trade can't be done, even though the players' actual salaries match exactly.

If one of the teams in the above example was below the cap, the trade still couldn't be done. For the team under the cap, their player would not be BYC, so they would be comparing $10 million to $10 million. But since the other team is over the cap, their player is BYC, and they'd still be comparing $5.85 million to $10 million, which prevents the trade from working. (See question number 75 for more information about trading BYC players.)

For Larry Bird or Early Bird players, the player's BYC begins on the date he signs his contract. For extended rookie scale contracts, the player's BYC begins on the day after the July Moratorium which precedes the first season of the extension. For example, if an extension of a rookie scale contract is signed on 10/30/05, his BYC begins on 7/12/06, because the first season of the extension is 2006-07. A player's BYC goes away if the team falls below the salary cap, the player signs with a different team, or the player is traded.

If a team trades an extended rookie between the date his extension is signed and the date it takes effect, his "trade value" for the receiving team is the average of the salaries in the last year of the scale contract and each year of the extension. This is called the poison pill provision. The sending team uses the player's actual salary when calculating their outgoing salary. They use the current-year maximum salary in place of the (unknown) maximum salary for a future season, if necessary.

Here is an example of a poison pill calculation: Carmelo Anthony earns $4,694,041 in 2006-07, the final year of his rookie scale contract. Prior to October 31, 2006 he signed a five year extension (bringing the total seasons to six) for the maximum salary, with the maximum 10.5% raises. Anthony's actual salary will not be determined until July 2007, when the maximum salary amounts for 2007-08 are set. During the 2006-07 season the 2006-07 maximum is assumed for the 2007-08 season ($13,762,775), and the salary in subsequent seasons is based on this amount ($15,070,550, $16,378,325 and $17,686,100, respectively). If Anthony is traded during the 2006-07 season, then his outgoing salary from the Nuggets' perspective is his actual salary of $4,694,041. His incoming salary from the other team's perspective would be $13,518,358 -- the average of his 2006-07 salary and the assumed salaries in the extension.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2009, 08:13:53 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Teams around the league do know that Leon is a very nice bench player. Phil Jackson always had great things to say about him for example. Everybody loves a blue collar garbage man off the bench swallowing up offensive and defensive rebounds.

Normally a guy rehabbing a knee wouldn't have value, but in this market...

It's more like he'd be signed to a minimum or very low 1 year + 1 year team option deal. Then you include the league allowed ~3 million.

You basically include more cash than his entire salary and some poor team will be willing to wait on him.

Leon+cash/Tony, Leon+cash/Tony/Gabe, Leon+cash/Tony/Giddens or anything like that is the sort of package we're looking at offering people I bet.
That's funny....last I checked Phil Jackson still didn't know how to pronouce Leon's name.

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2009, 08:52:20 PM »

Offline greg683x

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Teams around the league do know that Leon is a very nice bench player. Phil Jackson always had great things to say about him for example. Everybody loves a blue collar garbage man off the bench swallowing up offensive and defensive rebounds.

Normally a guy rehabbing a knee wouldn't have value, but in this market...

It's more like he'd be signed to a minimum or very low 1 year + 1 year team option deal. Then you include the league allowed ~3 million.

You basically include more cash than his entire salary and some poor team will be willing to wait on him.

Leon+cash/Tony, Leon+cash/Tony/Gabe, Leon+cash/Tony/Giddens or anything like that is the sort of package we're looking at offering people I bet.
That's funny....last I checked Phil Jackson still didn't know how to pronouce Leon's name.

Greg

Re: Leon Powe trade possibilities
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2009, 08:59:36 PM »

Offline jambr380

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TP 4 you Fan from VT...I always appreciate informative responses and why I am convinced that reading this blog for the past few years has made me much more knowledgable about the Celtics and the NBA than anyone else [who doesn't read this blog].

I figured there had to be a something that prevented teams over the cap in finding such a loophole- thanks for the explanation.

As for Powe, would be good just to hold on to him and for a year and a team option and just see what happens. We sure as heck could have used him this postseason.