What can BBD sign for? (split)

[Fafnir]

BBD is unrestricted.  The Celtics did not get a 3rd year option. As of July 1, 2009 he's no longer under contract to any NBA team.

Besides, do you see BBD as the 6th man on a championship team?  I don't.  I see him as a solid 4th big man.  They need another 6-10 or better player who can actually play.  They need another wing shooter and they need a backup pg who defends alot better than Marbury.  They might have had that in Pruitt if Rivers hadn't stuck with the underperforming Marbury.  Terrible decision, but it's Rivers who lost his bonus money, not me.

BBD is a restricted free agent as soon as Boston makes him a qualify offer.

All players that have been in the league for three or fewer years and have been with the same team and have been given a qualifying offer is considered a restricted free agent. Since Leon has been with the Celtics for three years, the Celtics have his Bird rights and he is a completely restricted free agent.

BBD has been with the Celtics for two years and falls into the Gilbert Arenas area of being considered an "early Bird" restricted free agent. The Celtics own his Bird rights up to and including the MLE maximum number. If however, a team offers BBD a contract over the MLE max number per year then, like Arenas, he will be considered unrestricted to accept that offer with Boston being unable to match, as they would at any number at or under the MLE per year.

Hope that helps.

Nick, per the Gilbert Arenas rule that was added to prevent good second round picks from leaving a team that wants to resign them he cannot be offered more than the MLE by another team. Thus the C's may match any offer.

this doesn't sound quite right. are you saying that if a team with cap space wants to offer Baby 10 mil per, they can't?

See the explanation above.  Opposing teams are limited to what they can offer in the first two years.  After that, they can give a huge raise, which might bring the average value of the deal up to $10 million per season.

yep. just saw that after i posted....

Rather confusing isn't it  . I had to use Roy's explanation and 20 minutes reading Larry Coon's FAQ to get the gist of it.

[nickagneta]

does "early Bird" rights mean we can be over the cap and still sign him without his salary being counted against any of the exceptions?

Yes.  If BBD signs a deal for the MLE or less with another team, we can resign him and preserve all of our other exceptions. 

The only part I'm unsure of is this: Other teams can offer BBD a deal where the first two years are the MLE amount, but in the third year the salary jumps drastically. If that happens (which it won't) I'm not sure if we could match strictly using early Bird rights, or whether we'd instead have to give up our MLE.  Larry Coon is ambiguous on this, and I haven't gone back to the CBA to look into it further.

But, long story short, so long as BBD doesn't get an offer for greater than the MLE (in year three and beyond), we'll be able to match and still use the MLE.

I thought after the first years of a contract you could only get a fixed pay increase of a certain percentage. Would that not apply in this case?

It doesn't apply in this case; it's an exception (in fact, it's the "Gilbert Arenas provision" that people talk about).  As Larry Coon describes it:

Teams are now limited in the salary they can offer in an offer sheet to a restricted free agent with one or two years in the league. The first-year salary in the offer sheet cannot be greater than the average salary (see question number 24). Limiting the first year salary in this way guarantees that the player's original team will be able to match the offer sheet by using the Early Bird exception (if applicable -- see question number 19), or Mid-Level exception (provided they haven't used it already).

The second year salary in such an offer sheet is limited to the standard 8% raise. The third year salary can jump considerably -- it is allowed to be as high as it would have been had the first year salary not been limited by this rule to the average salary. Raises (and decreases) after the third season are limited to 6.9% of the salary in the third season. The offer sheet can only contain the large jump in the third season if it provides the maximum salary allowed in the first two seasons. In addition, the offer must be guaranteed and cannot contain bonuses of any kind.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36

Anyway, looking at other provisions of Coon's writeup, he does in fact say that we can use the early Bird exception to match any offer to a restricted free agent, so it's a moot point.  However, it's important to note that if another team wants to, they can offer BBD a deal for greater than a typical MLE deal, so long as the first two years are limited to the MLE salary.

TP Roy, I knew it was two years but wasn't sure of the restriction of the year's thereafter.

So if some idiot GM wanted he could offer a contract for the MLE max amount for the first two years and then raise him as high as the five year veteran maximum salary in the thrid year with 6.9% raises for 2-3 years thereafter. Since the final years would be above the MLE, the Celtics couldn't match because they are over the cap.

Is this right?

[Roy Hobbs]

See the explanation above.  Opposing teams are limited to what they can offer in the first two years.  After that, they can give a huge raise, which might bring the average value of the deal up to $10 million per season.

So could we match such an escalating year is the question. Not that it matters.

No team is going to offer BBD 10 million a year in the third year. If they were to the C's would be wise to let him walk.
[/quote]

You're right that it's a moot point.  We could definitely hypothetically match, though, and according to Coon, we could use Early Bird rights (rather than the MLE) to do so.

[Mr October]

BBD deserves Scal money.  Anything more than that then let the guy walk.

i'd probably go 5 mil or so on Baby. definitely more than Scals...

If the C's go as high as 5 per, then we probably aren't going to see them pony up another 5 from the MLE on a better Big... 5 + 5 ... x2 for luxry tax = 20 million.

Ownership is not going to swallow that.

10/3 is what i think he should get... or scal money (15/5)...

[Fan from VT]

does "early Bird" rights mean we can be over the cap and still sign him without his salary being counted against any of the exceptions?

Yes.  If BBD signs a deal for the MLE or less with another team, we can resign him and preserve all of our other exceptions. 

The only part I'm unsure of is this: Other teams can offer BBD a deal where the first two years are the MLE amount, but in the third year the salary jumps drastically. If that happens (which it won't) I'm not sure if we could match strictly using early Bird rights, or whether we'd instead have to give up our MLE.  Larry Coon is ambiguous on this, and I haven't gone back to the CBA to look into it further.

But, long story short, so long as BBD doesn't get an offer for greater than the MLE (in year three and beyond), we'll be able to match and still use the MLE.

I thought after the first years of a contract you could only get a fixed pay increase of a certain percentage. Would that not apply in this case?

It doesn't apply in this case; it's an exception (in fact, it's the "Gilbert Arenas provision" that people talk about).  As Larry Coon describes it:

Teams are now limited in the salary they can offer in an offer sheet to a restricted free agent with one or two years in the league. The first-year salary in the offer sheet cannot be greater than the average salary (see question number 24). Limiting the first year salary in this way guarantees that the player's original team will be able to match the offer sheet by using the Early Bird exception (if applicable -- see question number 19), or Mid-Level exception (provided they haven't used it already).

The second year salary in such an offer sheet is limited to the standard 8% raise. The third year salary can jump considerably -- it is allowed to be as high as it would have been had the first year salary not been limited by this rule to the average salary. Raises (and decreases) after the third season are limited to 6.9% of the salary in the third season. The offer sheet can only contain the large jump in the third season if it provides the maximum salary allowed in the first two seasons. In addition, the offer must be guaranteed and cannot contain bonuses of any kind.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36

Anyway, looking at other provisions of Coon's writeup, he does in fact say that we can use the early Bird exception to match any offer to a restricted free agent, so it's a moot point.  However, it's important to note that if another team wants to, they can offer BBD a deal for greater than a typical MLE deal, so long as the first two years are limited to the MLE salary.

TP Roy, I knew it was two years but wasn't sure of the restriction of the year's thereafter.

So if some idiot GM wanted he could offer a contract for the MLE max amount for the first two years and then raise him as high as the five year veteran maximum salary in the thrid year with 6.9% raises for 2-3 years thereafter. Since the final years would be above the MLE, the Celtics couldn't match because they are over the cap.

Is this right?

no, the celtics can still match the offer. the point of this rule is so that a team with a good second round draft choice can always match an offer and keep him, while also ensuring that a good second round player who would be worth more than the MLE on the open market can get his payday. hence the option for major raises after the 2nd year of the extension.

[nickagneta]

The real problem with BBD, and really anyone we sign this offseason, is because we are over the luxury tax limit, everything we sign someone for is actually double due to the luxury tax. So a 4 year $$15 million contract for BBD is actually worth double that value for every year we are over that luxury level.

BBD getting $3.5 million next year is actually a $7 million hit. This is why I think they let Leon go as most of his upcoming year will be recupperating and even a $1 million qualifying offer becomes a $2 million fiscal hit for possibly nothing in return.

[Fafnir]

no, the celtics can still match the offer. the point of this rule is so that a team with a good second round draft choice can always match an offer and keep him, while also ensuring that a good second round player who would be worth more than the MLE on the open market can get his payday. hence the option for major raises after the 2nd year of the extension.

It is interesting that the NBA was consistent in keeping the first four years of any draft picks earnings fairly limited. With the 5th year being when you can really start to earn the big money.

[Roy Hobbs]

does "early Bird" rights mean we can be over the cap and still sign him without his salary being counted against any of the exceptions?

Yes.  If BBD signs a deal for the MLE or less with another team, we can resign him and preserve all of our other exceptions. 

The only part I'm unsure of is this: Other teams can offer BBD a deal where the first two years are the MLE amount, but in the third year the salary jumps drastically. If that happens (which it won't) I'm not sure if we could match strictly using early Bird rights, or whether we'd instead have to give up our MLE.  Larry Coon is ambiguous on this, and I haven't gone back to the CBA to look into it further.

But, long story short, so long as BBD doesn't get an offer for greater than the MLE (in year three and beyond), we'll be able to match and still use the MLE.

I thought after the first years of a contract you could only get a fixed pay increase of a certain percentage. Would that not apply in this case?

It doesn't apply in this case; it's an exception (in fact, it's the "Gilbert Arenas provision" that people talk about).  As Larry Coon describes it:

Teams are now limited in the salary they can offer in an offer sheet to a restricted free agent with one or two years in the league. The first-year salary in the offer sheet cannot be greater than the average salary (see question number 24). Limiting the first year salary in this way guarantees that the player's original team will be able to match the offer sheet by using the Early Bird exception (if applicable -- see question number 19), or Mid-Level exception (provided they haven't used it already).

The second year salary in such an offer sheet is limited to the standard 8% raise. The third year salary can jump considerably -- it is allowed to be as high as it would have been had the first year salary not been limited by this rule to the average salary. Raises (and decreases) after the third season are limited to 6.9% of the salary in the third season. The offer sheet can only contain the large jump in the third season if it provides the maximum salary allowed in the first two seasons. In addition, the offer must be guaranteed and cannot contain bonuses of any kind.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36

Anyway, looking at other provisions of Coon's writeup, he does in fact say that we can use the early Bird exception to match any offer to a restricted free agent, so it's a moot point.  However, it's important to note that if another team wants to, they can offer BBD a deal for greater than a typical MLE deal, so long as the first two years are limited to the MLE salary.

TP Roy, I knew it was two years but wasn't sure of the restriction of the year's thereafter.

So if some idiot GM wanted he could offer a contract for the MLE max amount for the first two years and then raise him as high as the five year veteran maximum salary in the thrid year with 6.9% raises for 2-3 years thereafter. Since the final years would be above the MLE, the Celtics couldn't match because they are over the cap.

Is this right?

no, the celtics can still match the offer. the point of this rule is so that a team with a good second round draft choice can always match an offer and keep him, while also ensuring that a good second round player who would be worth more than the MLE on the open market can get his payday. hence the option for major raises after the 2nd year of the extension.

That's correct.  Theoretically, the team *shouldn't* be allowed to match (since both the MLE and the early-Bird exceptions are limited to the average salary) but they're allowed to under these narrow circumstances.

[Fafnir]

The real problem with BBD, and really anyone we sign this offseason, is because we are over the luxury tax limit, everything we sign someone for is actually double due to the luxury tax. So a 4 year $$15 million contract for BBD is actually worth double that value for every year we are over that luxury level.

BBD getting $3.5 million next year is actually a $7 million hit. This is why I think they let Leon go as most of his upcoming year will be recupperating and even a $1 million qualifying offer becomes a $2 million fiscal hit for possibly nothing in return.

I really do think Leon will be back, but not with a qualifying offer. He'll get the minimum.

[Fan from VT]

no, the celtics can still match the offer. the point of this rule is so that a team with a good second round draft choice can always match an offer and keep him, while also ensuring that a good second round player who would be worth more than the MLE on the open market can get his payday. hence the option for major raises after the 2nd year of the extension.

It is interesting that the NBA was consistent in keeping the first four years of any draft picks earnings fairly limited. With the 5th year being when you can really start to earn the big money.

Exactly. I think that this rule is there to keep first rounders (who are locked in for four years) from holding out and demanding to wait to be drafted until the second round so they can be a free agent sooner and get a max contract sooner. this way there's no incentive for a player to be a second rounder vs. a 1st rounder.

[EJPLAYA]

If it is up to his agent, likely 4 mil per season. If it is up to BBD, probably a sack full of cheeseburgers and a bucket of wings.

[Roy Hobbs]

If it is up to his agent, likely 4 mil per season. If it is up to BBD, probably a sack full of cheeseburgers and a bucket of wings.

Come on, man.  BBD eats a sack full of cheeseburgers and a bucket of wings in one sitting. 

I'm teasing, of course.  BBD played a lot better than I was expecting this year, and I was impressed.  I'd love to have him back for $3 million / year or so. 

[EJPLAYA]

If it is up to his agent, likely 4 mil per season. If it is up to BBD, probably a sack full of cheeseburgers and a bucket of wings.

Come on, man.  BBD eats a sack full of cheeseburgers and a bucket of wings in one sitting. 

I'm teasing, of course.  BBD played a lot better than I was expecting this year, and I was impressed.  I'd love to have him back for $3 million / year or so. 

Yes, but that is how tough it is to kick the habit...

Kidding of course as well. I have thought BBD has done a very good job the last few months of dropping weight. He has done a solid job in coming in for BBD although I think that had Powe stayed healthy he would have been pushed to the bench. If we are able to pick up a couple solid free agents to fill needs then I would also like him to come back at a reasonable price. I wouldn't be too upset with a 4 yr 3 mil per contract.

I do however think that he has played himself into a valuable trading chip if we are not able to attract quality bigs or defensive small forwards. If he is our best backup big man we are in trouble again. We need size and a traditional big man who can rebound and alter shots and hopefully either defend real well or score.