Should the Celtics rebuild? (split)

[Steve Weinman]

The Celtics should be rebuilding.  I do not think they are close to being a championship team with what they have under contract for next year.  Even if Garnett comes back 100%, Pierce and Ray Allen are aging and they have no bench. Plus, the Sixers are going to hire Thibodeau.

  If KG comes back we have the best starters in the league. Rebuilding because we need to add a few backups over the summer is ridiculous.

I'll cosign that sentiment.  Well put, Tim.

-sw

[dlpin]

Sure if our chances were actually 25-30%, but the reality it is much more like 5-10% unless there are injuries from other teams.  Cleveland will be vastly superior to us next year.  Orlando with Nelson back will be better than us.  Teams like Atlanta, Miami, Philly, and Chicago should all be better (and any one could beat us come playoff time) as their young players continue to mature.  

Pierce and Allen were shot in the playoffs.  They both played terribly bad.  The only worthwhile players on the C's bench next year is Big Baby and House (if he comes back) and with very little tradeable pieces, the C's really have no shot at significantly improving the bench.  

The C's need to trade Ray Allen and add some younger players and depth.  If that happens, I think they are in much better shape to compete with the Cavs and Magic.

Why do you think other teams will be so much better? Cleveland may lose Varejao and Ilgauskas, Magic may lose Hedo, Chicago could lose both Hinrich and Gordon, the Hawks could end up doing a firesale depending on the ownership lawsuit, Andre Miller might leave Philly, and so on.

In fact, the argument could be made that we are the only top 5 team that is not in any danger of losing one of its starters.

And what is this story about no chance at significantly improving its bench? Last I checked, we have our MLE and it is a free agent market rife with good bench guys that could be had at the MLE.

[celticmaestro]

The Celtics should be rebuilding. 

Absolutely not -- too close to a ring -- there is still a legit chance to win a title.

What he said.

This team is good enough to win it all next year.

[anotherbanner]

 No way. May need to add bench help, but we are too close to adding number 18.

[Brickowski]

You guys are looking at the world through emerald colored glasses.  2007-2008 was a perfect storm: the league wasn't prepared for them.  They also had bench players who delivered.

This year, the only "bench" player who delivered in the playoffs was BBD (with the exception of one game by House against Chicago), and BBD became a starter when KG went down.

Right now they have no bench and NO MONEY TO SPEND ON A BENCH. They will have even less money after they extend Rondo (assuming he's willing), which will cost at least 10 million a year.

Powe and BBD are unrestricted free agents.  House has a player option.  Marbury and Moore both sucked, and I would not consider bringing either one back. Rivers has no confidence in Tony Allen, and he will most likely be traded for crap.  That will be good for Tony, who is a poor fit for Rivers' jump shot intensive offense.

That leaves Pruitt (another player who has been shunted aside by Rivers),Walker, Giddens and a Turkish stiff who the PR types will try to convince us is the second comong of Okur.

They have no first round pick, only one very late second round pick. And why should decent veterans like Rasheed Wallace want to come to Boston for the MLE?  The Lakers, Cavs, Nuggets and Magic have MLE's too.  These veterans want to go to (i) a winner, (ii) a team where they can start, or (iii) a team that can offer more money.  The Celtics can't offer any of that.

Their only tradable asset is Ray Allen's expiring deal.  And for that to have value,they must be willing to take back contracts in exchange, putting them even further into luxury tax hell in a down economy.

Finally, I think Garnett's injury is MUCH more serious than we have been led to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if Powe is back playing before Garnett. It isn't just a spur, it's a tendon that must be reattached to the bone.

This team is Detroit redux, except that the Celtics do not have young players who are nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Afflalo.

[Roy Hobbs]

You guys are looking at the world through emerald colored glasses.  2007-2008 was a perfect storm: the league wasn't prepared for them.  They also had bench players who delivered.

This year, the only "bench" player who delivered in the playoffs was BBD (with the exception of one game by House against Chicago), and BBD became a starter when KG went down.

Right now they have no bench and NO MONEY TO SPEND ON A BENCH. They will have even less money after they extend Rondo (assuming he's willing), which will cost at least 10 million a year.

Powe and BBD are unrestricted free agents.  House has a player option.  Marbury and Moore both sucked, and I would not consider bringing either one back.

That leaves Giddens, Walker and...

They have no first round pick, only one very late second round pick. And why should decent veterans like Rasheed Wallace want to come to Boston for the MLE?  The Lakers, Cavs, Nuggets and Magic have MLE's too.  These veterans want to go to either (i) a winner, or (ii) a team where they can start.  The Celtics can't offer either.

Their only tradable asset is Ray Allen's expiring deal.  And for that to have value,they must be willing to take back contracts in exchange, putting them even further into luxury tax hell in a down economy.

Finally, I think Garnett's injury is MUCH more serious than we have been led to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if Powe is back playing before Garnett. It isn't just a spur, it's a tendon that must be reattached to the bone.

This team is Detroit redux, except that the Celtics do not have young players who are nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Afflalo.

So, what's the end result of rebuilding?  Ending up as a tough first round playoff out ten years down the road, like Chicago?  In the vast, vast majority of cases, rebuilding doesn't work.  At least next year's team has a shot.

As for KG's injury, time will tell.  I'm not a doctor, so I can't say what he's looking at for recovery.

As a last aside:  there's no way that Stuckey, Maxiell, and Afflalo are better than Rondo and Perk.

[crownsy]

Finally, I think Garnett's injury is MUCH more serious than we have been led to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if Powe is back playing before Garnett. It isn't just a spur, it's a tendon that must be reattached to the bone.

got a link to the source of this info that directly contradicts everything the Celtics and KG are telling the national press about the injury?

No comments and "we'll see's" as they gave during the lead up to the playoffs are one thing, directly lying about an injury to the press is quite another.

[BballTim]

You guys are looking at the world through emerald colored glasses.  2007-2008 was a perfect storm: the league wasn't prepared for them.  They also had bench players who delivered.

This team is Detroit redux, except that the Celtics do not have young players who are nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Afflalo.

  Like it or not the Celts were as good as any team in the league until KG went out. And if you think that Rondo, Perk and Davis aren't nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Affalo you're the one with the funky glasses.

[winsomme]

KGs injury is the mitigating factor here.

but assuming for a second that he will be back to his pre-injury level, rebuilding IMO would be a mistake.

a healthy KG gets us clearly by the Magic and on to a slugfest with CLE. and getting past CLE would have meant another Title IMO.

the problem of getting past CLE would have been depth on the bench and that is where I hope Danny spends his energy this off season...not some major deal to rotate out Ray Allen.

that is an unnecessary rocking of the boat IMO.

we had the right formula...if KG is going to be okay, i don't see why we don't go back to it.

get a Posey replacement and a PJ replacement and we are going to be right there with any other club.

[afflatus]

Rondo is the Key. The Celtics are in a special situation that is very rare these days. Aside from San Antonio, we are really the only team and has a true torch bearer in Rajon Rondo. At the pace he is going, this will definitely be his team in a year or two. The big 3 need not look for another team where they can complement a good young star, they are already in one. Rondo will definitely extend their careers a bit. He already has their respect. Staying competitive also attracts free agents. Who would not want to play with Rondo at this point?

Of course, this is all subject to whether or not we stay contenders. In which case we should re-build. But I don't see that happening.

[ssspence]

You guys are looking at the world through emerald colored glasses.  2007-2008 was a perfect storm: the league wasn't prepared for them.  They also had bench players who delivered.

This year, the only "bench" player who delivered in the playoffs was BBD (with the exception of one game by House against Chicago), and BBD became a starter when KG went down.

Right now they have no bench and NO MONEY TO SPEND ON A BENCH. They will have even less money after they extend Rondo (assuming he's willing), which will cost at least 10 million a year.

Powe and BBD are unrestricted free agents.  House has a player option.  Marbury and Moore both sucked, and I would not consider bringing either one back. Rivers has no confidence in Tony Allen, and he will most likely be traded for crap.  That will be good for Tony, who is a poor fit for Rivers' jump shot intensive offense.

That leaves Pruitt (another player who has been shunted aside by Rivers),Walker, Giddens and a Turkish stiff who the PR types will try to convince us is the second comong of Okur.

They have no first round pick, only one very late second round pick. And why should decent veterans like Rasheed Wallace want to come to Boston for the MLE?  The Lakers, Cavs, Nuggets and Magic have MLE's too.  These veterans want to go to (i) a winner, (ii) a team where they can start, or (iii) a team that can offer more money.  The Celtics can't offer any of that.

Their only tradable asset is Ray Allen's expiring deal.  And for that to have value,they must be willing to take back contracts in exchange, putting them even further into luxury tax hell in a down economy.

Finally, I think Garnett's injury is MUCH more serious than we have been led to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if Powe is back playing before Garnett. It isn't just a spur, it's a tendon that must be reattached to the bone.

This team is Detroit redux, except that the Celtics do not have young players who are nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Afflalo.

BBD is not unrestricted. Rondo's contract does not affect their ability to spend on the bench (bird rights). They have the choice to spend in FA, should they wish to push their chips in for another run in a market where FA spending is likely to be down due to teams being in the red and the over-inflated FA market of 2010. Afflalo doesn't play on a bad team. Ugh.

[Celtics17]

You don't rebuild when you have far and away the best starting 5 in bball, assuming everyone is healthy. We need better bench players and I think ownership will realize this and add a couple of quality players, resign Marbury and we are ready for anybody. We do need an athletic forward who can guard both Lebron and Kobe and we need a backup big.

[Neurotic Guy]

You guys are looking at the world through emerald colored glasses.  2007-2008 was a perfect storm: the league wasn't prepared for them.  They also had bench players who delivered.

This year, the only "bench" player who delivered in the playoffs was BBD (with the exception of one game by House against Chicago), and BBD became a starter when KG went down.

Right now they have no bench and NO MONEY TO SPEND ON A BENCH. They will have even less money after they extend Rondo (assuming he's willing), which will cost at least 10 million a year.

Powe and BBD are unrestricted free agents.  House has a player option.  Marbury and Moore both sucked, and I would not consider bringing either one back. Rivers has no confidence in Tony Allen, and he will most likely be traded for crap.  That will be good for Tony, who is a poor fit for Rivers' jump shot intensive offense.

That leaves Pruitt (another player who has been shunted aside by Rivers),Walker, Giddens and a Turkish stiff who the PR types will try to convince us is the second comong of Okur.

They have no first round pick, only one very late second round pick. And why should decent veterans like Rasheed Wallace want to come to Boston for the MLE?  The Lakers, Cavs, Nuggets and Magic have MLE's too.  These veterans want to go to (i) a winner, (ii) a team where they can start, or (iii) a team that can offer more money.  The Celtics can't offer any of that.

Their only tradable asset is Ray Allen's expiring deal.  And for that to have value,they must be willing to take back contracts in exchange, putting them even further into luxury tax hell in a down economy.

Finally, I think Garnett's injury is MUCH more serious than we have been led to believe. I wouldn't be surprised if Powe is back playing before Garnett. It isn't just a spur, it's a tendon that must be reattached to the bone.

This team is Detroit redux, except that the Celtics do not have young players who are nearly as good as Stuckey, Maxiell or Afflalo.

What color are your glasses?

Quick reactions:
They DO have money to spend on the bench in their MLE and LLE. 

Veterans to this point HAVE been viewing Boston as a desired location -- not sure why you think this has changed so dramatically. The C's can't offer a 'winner'? Huh? And you know that Rasheed needs to start? How is it that you know this?

C's are likely to resign both Powe and BBD without impacting the exceptions.
They CAN sign and trade BBD if it becomes advantageous to do so.

They MIGHT become Detroit redux IF the big 3 deteriorate next year -- certainly not a guarentee either way -- I prefer thinking that they'll be strong for at least another year.

The C's MAY have taken the league by storm in 2007-8, but how do you explain the 27-2 start to 2008-9?  League STILL wasn't ready for them? 

Lastly -- why is it that you think KGs injury is worse than most of us think? You have inside info?  If so, what?  Or do you simply take the most negative spin possible regardless of the facts on the table?

[cordobes]

Brick has a penchant for unorthodox ideas. Last off-season he wanted Morey to trade Battier for Jamaal Tinsley; this one he wants a 60 wins team to rebuild. 

[wdleehi]

KG and Pierce are back next year going for a title.


They will be joined by Rondo and Perk.




Ray may or may not be here (remember, Ainge is the one who said the Celtics probably should have trade Bird and Mchale as they got older)




So whether Ray is back or Ainge makes a trade that make the Celtics a little younger but still in the win now mode, they only need to add to the bench one or two solid roll players. 


Davis will be back.  No one is breaking the bank this year for a short, heavy PF that has only a short stretch of top notch play. 


I think House will be back because if he couldn't find a bigger contract last year when there was more money, what makes us think he will find one this year.