Guess Who's Back-Starbury / Was this the Marbury game Doc kept mentioning? (merged)

[BballTim]

I also think we need to give the guy his due for his agressive defense lately. Last night he was all over his guy unlike that guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open. Steph has given us a consistency on D none of us expected.

  The "guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open" was doing what he was supposed to, playing off of Alston and helping out on Howard/Lewis. It was fairly effective as he caused a couple of turnovers in the first quarter and Perk and Davis avoided early foul trouble. Doc might have wanted Rondo to rush out at Alston more than he did when Rafer was shooting but he didn't want Rondo playing him tightly like Marbury was.

Rondo is suppose to come back to the man with the ball. That is is how the defense works.

I don't know if he thinking of rebounds or what exactly.

  That's what I meant by Doc wanting Rondo to close out Alston better, but my point was he wasn't floating around the free throw line because he was playing bad defense, it was because he was doubling on the bigs in the post.

[EJPLAYA]

I also think we need to give the guy his due for his agressive defense lately. Last night he was all over his guy unlike that guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open. Steph has given us a consistency on D none of us expected.

  The "guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open" was doing what he was supposed to, playing off of Alston and helping out on Howard/Lewis. It was fairly effective as he caused a couple of turnovers in the first quarter and Perk and Davis avoided early foul trouble. Doc might have wanted Rondo to rush out at Alston more than he did when Rafer was shooting but he didn't want Rondo playing him tightly like Marbury was.

Like that play at the end where Rondo was floating at the top and didn't drop down to double yet when they kicked it out to Rafer he just turned and stared at the guy and didn't make ANY attempt to at least run out at him?! Had he hit that three, which he had hit some earlier in the game, we likely would have lost that game. Absolutely no excuses for lack of effort. Every defensive play down lately I have been watching Rondo and this is happening at least half the time. Half hearted defensive effort has no place out there on this team. Rondo does a lot of great things, but his defense is WAY over rated.

[crownsy]

I also think we need to give the guy his due for his agressive defense lately. Last night he was all over his guy unlike that guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open. Steph has given us a consistency on D none of us expected.

  The "guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open" was doing what he was supposed to, playing off of Alston and helping out on Howard/Lewis. It was fairly effective as he caused a couple of turnovers in the first quarter and Perk and Davis avoided early foul trouble. Doc might have wanted Rondo to rush out at Alston more than he did when Rafer was shooting but he didn't want Rondo playing him tightly like Marbury was.

Like that play at the end where Rondo was floating at the top and didn't drop down to double yet when they kicked it out to Rafer he just turned and stared at the guy and didn't make ANY attempt to at least run out at him?! Had he hit that three, which he had hit some earlier in the game, we likely would have lost that game. Absolutely no excuses for lack of effort. Every defensive play down lately I have been watching Rondo and this is happening at least half the time. Half hearted defensive effort has no place out there on this team. Rondo does a lot of great things, but his defense is WAY over rated.

you don't suppose his lack of defensive effort and stretchs of walking the ball up instead of running at a hundred miles an hour have anything at all to do with the two sprainined ankles he's been playing on for the last month, do you?

ya know, since the tendaency to not run all the time started right about a month before the playoffs when he sprainined the right ankle while he was favoring the left, and he resprainined the left not 10 days ago in the chicago series?

I know injuries are no excuse, but go sparin both ankles and tell me if you can run for 40 minutes stright like you can when they are both healthy....

[BballTim]

I also think we need to give the guy his due for his agressive defense lately. Last night he was all over his guy unlike that guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open. Steph has given us a consistency on D none of us expected.

  The "guy who was starting in front of him who once again was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open" was doing what he was supposed to, playing off of Alston and helping out on Howard/Lewis. It was fairly effective as he caused a couple of turnovers in the first quarter and Perk and Davis avoided early foul trouble. Doc might have wanted Rondo to rush out at Alston more than he did when Rafer was shooting but he didn't want Rondo playing him tightly like Marbury was.

Like that play at the end where Rondo was floating at the top and didn't drop down to double yet when they kicked it out to Rafer he just turned and stared at the guy and didn't make ANY attempt to at least run out at him?! Had he hit that three, which he had hit some earlier in the game, we likely would have lost that game. Absolutely no excuses for lack of effort. Every defensive play down lately I have been watching Rondo and this is happening at least half the time. Half hearted defensive effort has no place out there on this team. Rondo does a lot of great things, but his defense is WAY over rated.

  Sure, every play you're watching Rondo, looking for something that might be a mistake. Watch any player that closely and you'll be able to find things to complain about. But while you were closely watching Rondo on every defensive possession you either failed to notice why he was floating at the free throw line and leaving his guy wide open or you did see what he was doing but criticized him for doing what he was supposed to.

  I'll also point out that while you're claiming that Rondo's defense is WAY overrated, you're praising Marbury for playing much better defense than Rondo. Doc subbed Rondo for Marbury in spite of the fact that Steph was hot and Rondo hadn't been all night because we were only trading baskets and we needed to get some stops. So clearly Doc felt that the defensive improvement from Marbury to Rondo more than offset any offense we were getting from Steph.

[vagrantwade]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

[crownsy]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

uh... in the qoute your looking for he specificly mentioned he thought the starters were more cohesive on both ends of the floor...one would assume at least on end is defense.

[vagrantwade]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

uh... in the qoute your looking for he specificly mentioned he thought the starters were more cohesive on both ends of the floor...one would assume at least on end is defense.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Other than pointing out what I just said.

[Fafnir]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

uh... in the qoute your looking for he specificly mentioned he thought the starters were more cohesive on both ends of the floor...one would assume at least on end is defense.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Other than pointing out what I just said.

You took Doc's quote and put your spin on it. He pointed out that Doc could have easily meant it a different way.

As for Rondo's defense being "overrated" maybe by some CB members. But he's still a defensive force at the PG slot, which is a rare asset to have. Especially as he is a true point rather than a short stretch defensive sub.

[crownsy]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

uh... in the qoute your looking for he specificly mentioned he thought the starters were more cohesive on both ends of the floor...one would assume at least on end is defense.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Other than pointing out what I just said.

ok ill go through my reasoning step by step.

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother.

your entire post is that rondo wasn't inserted for steph due to his defense here, but because the starters play better together on both ends of the floor. this doesn't make sense.

marbury, according to you, was playing defense at the same level as rondo is capable of, and at the time he was on the floor with allen, perk, and baby. The only change is pierce if you don't sub rondo and keep steph on the floor.

Your telling me that steph, who was bailing us out along with baby, was playing defense as well as rondo? please.  notice we didnt get a stop the entire time steph was scoring.

but lets assume he was, we have to get rondo out there, horrid offense and all, because it makes the other 4 guys besides steph all warm and fuzzy inside when rondo's out there, so they carried him defensively?

far more reasonable is that rondo, a 2nd team all defense player, is a better defender than marbury, which is in fact the case in reality. This is not a knock on steph's effort, and not everyone is a great defender, but to say doc substituted a player in who was stinking it up on offense just to make 4 other guys feel better out there? give me a break.

Steph is many things, i love what he's brought, and his defensive effort has been a very welcome suprise, but he's not that good of a defender. Eddie house busts his tail on defense too, but he's not a better defender than ray allen or rondo. Some guys just aren't as good on defense as others. If effort was all it took, mikki moore would be defensive player of the year.

If steph was as good of a defender as rondo, our lineup would have been;

steph
allen
paul
baby
perk

but thats not our best defensive lineup, our starters are, and we needed stops.



doc went out of his way to say he needed the starters back in because they needed a unit that played more coherent (read: better) defense.

 the more reasonable conclusion than marbury has suddenly become a great defender is that rondo is in fact a better defender than marbury, and was in fact subsisted for defensive purposes, since as  horrid night offensively as he had, which steph saved us from no doubt, he is still a better defender than marbury.

Ergo, the subs had to have SOMETHING to do with defense, which you claimed wasn't the case, at a critical point in the game, and it worked. suddenly, low and behold, we got stops.

[hpantazo]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

uh... in the qoute your looking for he specificly mentioned he thought the starters were more cohesive on both ends of the floor...one would assume at least on end is defense.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Other than pointing out what I just said.

ok ill go through my reasoning step by step.

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother.

your entire post is that rondo wasn't inserted for steph due to his defense here, but because the starters play better together on both ends of the floor. this doesn't make sense.

marbury, according to you, was playing defense at the same level as rondo is capable of, and at the time he was on the floor with allen, perk, and baby. The only change is pierce if you don't sub rondo and keep steph on the floor.

Your telling me that steph, who was bailing us out along with baby, was playing defense as well as rondo? please.  notice we didnt get a stop the entire time steph was scoring.

but lets assume he was, we have to get rondo out there, horrid offense and all, because it makes the other 4 guys besides steph all warm and fuzzy inside when rondo's out there, so they carried him defensively?

far more reasonable is that rondo, a 2nd team all defense player, is a better defender than marbury, which is in fact the case in reality. This is not a knock on steph's effort, and not everyone is a great defender, but to say doc substituted a player in who was stinking it up on offense just to make 4 other guys feel better out there? give me a break.

Steph is many things, i love what he's brought, and his defensive effort has been a very welcome suprise, but he's not that good of a defender. Eddie house busts his tail on defense too, but he's not a better defender than ray allen or rondo. Some guys just aren't as good on defense as others. If effort was all it took, mikki moore would be defensive player of the year.

If steph was as good of a defender as rondo, our lineup would have been;

steph
allen
paul
baby
perk

but thats not our best defensive lineup, our starters are, and we needed stops.



doc went out of his way to say he needed the starters back in because they needed a unit that played more coherent (read: better) defense.

 the more reasonable conclusion than marbury has suddenly become a great defender is that rondo is in fact a better defender than marbury, and was in fact subsisted for defensive purposes, since as  horrid night offensively as he had, which steph saved us from no doubt, he is still a better defender than marbury.

Ergo, the subs had to have SOMETHING to do with defense, which you claimed wasn't the case, at a critical point in the game, and it worked. suddenly, low and behold, we got stops.

it may not make sense, but it's the way Doc operates. No one has accused him of making sense before.

[BballTim]

Doc put Rondo in because he wanted his starters in. It had nothing to do with him thinking Rondo played better defense, he just thought the 1st team was more cohesive and familiar with eachother. He said so himself.

And Rondo is in the middle because he wants to poke away the ball for steals. He isn't trying to have some big presence in a double team on the big. That is just the facts. He is young, it happens. Marbury was the exact same way in Minnesota.

  So when you say "That is just the facts" you basically mean "that's what I think". I guess when they asked Doc about Alston getting those open shots and Doc saying something like "that's the shot we're giving them" he was somehow confused about what was happening? I guess Danny was similarly confused today when he was saying that we were just trading buckets and we needed stops so Doc put in his best defensive lineup.

  People can see how other teams cheat off of Rondo sometimes, but they can't imagine we'd ever employ a similar strategy.

[guava_wrench]

Doc stated he put his starters back in because they know the system better and he was concerned with execution down the stretch.

Based on the result, Doc made the right move. He was correct. We had excellent defensive execution with the starters back on the floor.

Complaining about Doc's move, well, people are entitled to their opinion, even when the results show otherwise.

It was a great few minutes for Marbury, and hopefully he continues to go to the hole like he did on that final layup that he missed. That might have been his first explosive move to the rim since he arrived.

[HYPE.]

It was a great few minutes for Marbury, and hopefully he continues to go to the hole like he did on that final layup that he missed. That might have been his first explosive move to the rim since he arrived.

Actually, no. If you watched Game 3 of the last series, Marbury scored his season-high, 13 points, and attacked the rim was constant floater after floater. In Game 1 of this series, Marbury scored 8 points in 6 minutes. That was his greatest perfomance since being on the Celtics...until last night. His performance last night was EXCELLENT. I knew from the moment we signed him that he would be a valuable player. With that said, I still believe Marbury is capable of playing MUCH, MUCH better than he did last night. His career avg. is 19.9 PPG, so you have to admit that he has the ability to be way more aggressive. Hopefully, Marbury continues this and/or steps his game up and wins us a game again.

[BASS_THUMPER]

cant judge a playa by one night good one night off one night great. off the bench he will be key in beating james and doc knows it..

we beat james we get anutha banner

berry is key in that..his position

[StartOrien]

his explosion, just one day after I got an email response from starbury.com announcing a fall line of starbury kicks; coincidence?