Giddens carries Flash to the D-League Finals

[cordobes]

If Giddens was ready to contribute defensively in the NBA, I'm pretty sure Doc would have find minutes for him.

I don't agree, for the reasons others have stated. But even if it's that the case, then Doc would have played Giddens, because injuries forced his hand.

If Doc sees in Giddens a NBA ready defender, why hasn't he played him when he needed a defensive backup wing so much? Because he lacks experience? Precisely, he's not NBA ready. Courtney Lee or Mbah a Moute were playing NBA defence basically since day 1. Giddens is not on their level.

There you go. That's the stance I was arguing against.

I don't disagree with what you're seeing from Giddens defensively though, though I think he's a bit better than you give him credit. I just think that's good enough for him to get on the floor, and improve while being given some playing time. There are plenty of inferior defenders playing in the NBA.

Maybe Pruitt should have been seeing more floor time by your reasoning, since I think at one point either Doc or Ainge were saying that he was being their best perimeter defender.

I've already answered in my last post. In the NBA, Giddens would be a foul machine. Pruitt is a decent defender of the point-of-attack, that's all; Doc and Ainge were lying.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Which I don't have any problems with, if he was a foul machine, since he wouldn't be expected to play heavy minutes. But until the time comes, we'll see if he would really be a foul machine.

Unless the stats are wrong, in the season he was only averaging 2 fouls 37 minutes.

[cordobes]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

[BudweiserCeltic]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

[cordobes]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

Bill Walker averages 3 fouls per 30 minutes in the D-League. In the NBA he averages 8.5 per 36 minutes and that's playing lots of garbage time.

[BudweiserCeltic]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

Bill Walker averages 3 fouls per 30 minutes in the D-League. In the NBA he averages 8.5 per 36 minutes and that's playing lots of garbage time.

I don't put a lot of stock in the foul numbers with players that don't get plenty of playing time. But yeah, Walker has been foul prone. Also, Walker was playing about 7 minutes less than Giddens.

[The Walker Wiggle]

It's my opinion that the basketball discussion in this thread is closed for now.

Bully for you, tell me why I should care? (Anyway you spoiled your own melodramatic exit by immediately returning.) Either way the discussion can and will go on very nicely without you, without any one of us. And discussion, back and forth, is why we're all here - or presumably. It's easy enough to find another topic if you don't like the direction this one has taken.

For someone who's ostensibly here to "talk about basketball" - and who usually does just that, and does it well - you've instead spent half this thread whining, condescending to the rest of us, and waving your sophomore philosophy class in our faces. Dull and irritating.

Anyway consider my hackles up.

[cordobes]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

Bill Walker averages 3 fouls per 30 minutes in the D-League. In the NBA he averages 8.5 per 36 minutes and that's playing lots of garbage time.

I don't put a lot of stock in the foul numbers with players that don't get plenty of playing time. But yeah, Walker has been foul prone. Also, Walker was playing about 7 minutes less than Giddens.

My point is that D-League stats don't translate to the NBA games (at least when it comes to PFs).

[cordobes]

You're just rejecting the argument based on a point that has nothing to do with the argument itself.  So what if I'm 'appealing to authority'?

 

What argument? I'm rejecting the argument that Giddens defence is NBA ready by stating moves that he doesn't execute properly. How exactly are you defending your argument?

And frankly, you have no right to call out my deferral to Danny on this issue.  "Doc's not playing him, so he must not be ready" is exactly the same thing as what I did:  you're supplying an argument based on a higher authority's opinion

Nope, you're wrong. I've never said anything remotely close to the quote you attribute to me. I'll repeat the explanation:

I've presented my arguments on why isn't Giddens ready and they had nothing to do with his lack of playing time - I've talked about his defensive deficiencies, his shooting, the bad decision making, the ball-handling, etc.

What I've also said is that if he didn't have those deficiencies, he'd be playing - because when and if he corrects those flaws, he'll easily be a rotational NBA player; and in every roster, let alone one with lack of backup wings like ours.

I don't know how to explain this better. I hope it's enough to clarify the misunderstanding.

And, um, I never said the mental game caused Giddens' flaws in the D League.  The original comment was that Giddens isn't mentally ready to contribute on a championship level team.  You disagreed

Nope, you're wrong. My position is that there are more things that are holding him back - technical stuff (his shooting, defensive fundamentals, dribbling, etc.) - besides the "mental thing".

That's why the fact that he can't execute those things even when not playing in the NBA is relevant. It proves it isn't "all mental".

[cordobes]

It's my opinion that the basketball discussion in this thread is closed for now.

Bully for you, tell me why I should care? (Anyway you spoiled your own melodramatic exit by immediately returning

I don't know why would you care, but you wrote an entire post commenting a simple sentence.  It wasn't an exit, that's why I said "for now". I returned once there was new material worth commenting.

Either way the discussion can and will go on very nicely without you, without any one of us. And discussion, back and forth, is why we're all here - or presumably. It's easy enough to find another topic if you don't like the direction this one has taken.

For someone who's ostensibly here to "talk about basketball" - and who usually does just that, and does it well - you've instead spent half this thread whining, condescending to the rest of us, and waving your sophomore philosophy class in our faces. Dull and irritating.

Whatever. I suggest you to open a thread to talk about me. It's a boring issue, but as you're clearly interested, I see no problem with it. This one is about Giddens. Do you have an opinion on the kid's game or not?

[Steve Weinman]

It's a good night in Celtics land, folks - just a friendly reminder that we're all best served when we keep things civil around here.

Thanks.

-sw

[BudweiserCeltic]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

Bill Walker averages 3 fouls per 30 minutes in the D-League. In the NBA he averages 8.5 per 36 minutes and that's playing lots of garbage time.

I don't put a lot of stock in the foul numbers with players that don't get plenty of playing time. But yeah, Walker has been foul prone. Also, Walker was playing about 7 minutes less than Giddens.

My point is that D-League stats don't translate to the NBA games (at least when it comes to PFs).

I know they don't. But also most of Walker's fouls, from what I can see, come from him coming in and just playing tough and smacking people around. He has ZERO concern about getting into foul trouble, nor does he play through long stretches in which he has to conserve himself to protect his fouls.

There's no a balance to average things out in what is the normal course of a game, and normalizing the stats. As such, that he comes in banging against everyone, inflates his fouls stats. Not saying that he hasn't been foul prone, but I think some context has to be inserted here, and it's the reason why I don't pay much attention to the number of fouls players that play very little during a game give.

And you mention PF, well he's not a PF (although he played some in college), so he's easily overmatched against them and he'll foul opposing PF more frequently than any other position he plays... though he has been commiting many fouls regardless.

[cordobes]

How's that possible? He only played 8 minutes.

DLeague stats.

Bill Walker averages 3 fouls per 30 minutes in the D-League. In the NBA he averages 8.5 per 36 minutes and that's playing lots of garbage time.

I don't put a lot of stock in the foul numbers with players that don't get plenty of playing time. But yeah, Walker has been foul prone. Also, Walker was playing about 7 minutes less than Giddens.

My point is that D-League stats don't translate to the NBA games (at least when it comes to PFs).

I know they don't. But also most of Walker's fouls, from what I can see, come from him coming in and just playing tough and smacking people around. He has ZERO concern about getting into foul trouble, nor does he play through long stretches in which he has to conserve himself to protect his fouls.

There's no a balance to average things out in what is the normal course of a game, and normalizing the stats. As such, that he comes in banging against everyone, inflates his fouls stats. Not saying that he hasn't been foul prone, but I think some context has to be inserted here, and it's the reason why I don't pay much attention to the number of fouls players that play very little during a game give.

And you mention PF, well he's not a PF (although he played some in college), so he's easily overmatched against them and he'll foul opposing PF more frequently than any other position he plays... though he has been commiting many fouls regardless.

PF = Personal Fouls

Walker is extremely foul prone. There's a more important reason for a player like Walker to control his fouls than the possibility of getting in foul trouble or fouling out. Too many fouls put the team under the penalty sooner.

[BudweiserCeltic]

That's not enough incentive for a player to be careful with his fouls, especially with good percentage of playing time he gets in garbage time.

[bucknersrevenge]

I don't know what I'm discussing here anyway. Arguing against a GM talk phrase about a rookie in the draft night? I've actually watched Giddens play enough to be absolutely certain he's not NBA ready defensively. And those who disagree, should explain to me what am I seeing wrong. Just in terms of manxman fundamentals, he doesn't get low enough when closing out; he tends to attempt to block shots only with his right hand; he's over-aggressive with his hands; etc.

Yeah, he has good defensive potential - I even stated in the OP that his niche in the NBA may be as a specialist wing defender; but he needs the savy, the experience and to polish some aspects of his game. But right now, a guy like Trey Johnson can easily put him in the air with a small fake. That wouldn't happen with a NBA ready defender.

I'll never understand why people argue about basketball without knowing what they're talking about. Simply stating "oh, but Ainge said X" and "Ainge said Y" is not a proper argument, from my point of view.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here either and that's not even being fecetious. Who said JR was ready defensively now for THIS team? Fact is, the term "NBA ready" is EXTREMELY subjective and more often than not is dependant on the roster and the overall goals of the team. For instance, Giddens would be "NBA ready" on the LA Clippers, Timberwolves and OKC Thunder. On those team he would play through mistakes he wouldn't get the chance to here.

JR has potential as a plus wing defender, a good off-the-ball slasher and playmaker. He's a rookie that didn't get minutes on a championship team. Big deal. He'll have a shot next year. Right now he's working on his game and carrying the Celtics minor league team to the Finals. It really could be a lot worse.

As for quoting any Ainge analysis, it may seem like a copout to you but seeing as how Ainge has seen Giddens FAR more than you, I or anyone here and gets to see him up close on a regular basis I'd say his opinion and analysis carries a bit more weight than ours.

What's so ironic is that the veteran role players many clamor for to fill out our core rotation were originally the JR Giddens' of yesteryear(sometimes with less overall talent) that at some point got a chance to play through mistakes most likely on bad teams. Joe Smith immediately comes to mind. Antonio McDyess is another. Bottomline, this isn't about Giddens' talent. He has that. It's about experience, which he doesn't and on a championship team that's not looked at as a plus. You really don't have anything to argue about.