Author Topic: The real problem  (Read 8779 times)

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Re: The real problem
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2009, 11:36:27 PM »

Offline ben

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I think a real problem is Glen Davis getting 3 rebounds in 40 minutes while Joakim Noah got 17...  





« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 12:18:10 AM by ben »

Re: The real problem
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2009, 11:46:09 PM »

Offline QuinielaBox

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Last year, we were lucky the soon-to-be-aging Big 3 had the unparalleled drive, focus and energy to pursue their first Larry O'Brien trophy. The series we went through against the Hawks, Cavs, and Lakers (Detroit is an exemption because their All-Stars are getting worn out too) displayed our lack of length, speed and athleticism.  We only had Rondo, TA, Perkins, Big Baby and Powe to show for their athleticism. The Big 3 were either outsped, outrebounded and outhustled by their younger counterparts. They were sickeningly but [dang] very lucky to outwit their counterparts with talent and skills.
I have always believed that Perk is a power forward and we could have brought in 2 young 7-footers and 2 speedy guard-forwards 6-8/6-9 to prepare for this year's playoffs. PP should play alternately as SG or SF.
Rondo, Powe and Big Baby did well against the Bulls in game 1 as the box score shows. PP and Ray should not come in at the same time, only as starters should they play together but not for long. A new set of offense is needed and this offensive plays are the kind of involving the young talented ones like Bill Walker, Pruitt and Giddens.  We don't even have a respectable fastbreak wherein we should go strong to the hoop instead of settling down for jumpers. The time to expose our young guys and give them more than the usual playing time is now.
This is beginning to be like the mid-80s where KC Jones used his aging best 5 play a lot of PTs.
We are now in a transition to get in new players and more PTs to younger players we have in our roster in order to get us to the future. Limit PP and Ray playing together. Only in crucial time and when experience is needed do we let them play together.

So what you are saying is trade off Pierce, Allen,  and Garnett for draft picks and expiring contracts?
Wins are few, times are hard. Here is your bleeping St Patricks Day Card.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2009, 12:01:38 AM »

Offline cordobes

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I think a real problem is Glen Davis getting 3 rebounds in 40 minutes while Joakim Noah got 17...  





by the way our point guard had 9
by the way Powe had 8 in 17 min. 
by the way mikki moore had 4 in 6 min.
by the way rebounding is important

I was truly shocked until you wrote your post-scriptum.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2009, 12:09:36 AM »

Offline Scalablob990

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Why Powe didn't start just amazes me, it really does.
True Celtic = Leon Powe

Bring back the show!!!!

Re: The real problem
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2009, 12:39:16 AM »

Offline ben

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Why Powe didn't start just amazes me, it really does.

I know!  i guess "that's where amazing happens"
I hope Powe starts next game.  We need rebounding, and to get the bulls in foul trouble.
Rondo plays really well with Powe any way so it would work great!

Re: The real problem
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2009, 01:09:13 AM »

Offline RmbrRuss

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Perkins is slower and shorter than Noah so start Moore. Davis is shorter and slower than Tyrus Thomas and no one on the court could keep up w him when he took off on the break.  Remedy?...more Tony Allen/Walker?  Rose is a handful for Rondo..let T Allen and Marbury come in and pound him 12 hard fouls.
Others are correct...no other 6'9"-6'11" guys to defend the middle and drivers are not frightened. It may amuse to grab a Marbury and keep Scalabrine  for laughs but this  season is wasted. Doc should have tested the bench he has but.....
Can he be so blind to see we lack size? Not starting Moore now is coaching ignorant.
We can use Perk for preventing Miller's 13 rebs in 20 mins.
Good night folks. Next big item...signing the right free agents.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2009, 01:29:54 AM »

Offline johnnyrondo

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Perkins is slower and shorter than Noah so start Moore. Davis is shorter and slower than Tyrus Thomas and no one on the court could keep up w him when he took off on the break.  Remedy?...more Tony Allen/Walker?  Rose is a handful for Rondo..let T Allen and Marbury come in and pound him 12 hard fouls.
Others are correct...no other 6'9"-6'11" guys to defend the middle and drivers are not frightened. It may amuse to grab a Marbury and keep Scalabrine  for laughs but this  season is wasted. Doc should have tested the bench he has but.....
Can he be so blind to see we lack size? Not starting Moore now is coaching ignorant.
We can use Perk for preventing Miller's 13 rebs in 20 mins.
Good night folks. Next big item...signing the right free agents.

Did you just suggest to start Moore over Perk?!?!?!



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Re: The real problem
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2009, 02:27:33 AM »

Offline TonyAllenisbest

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Finally, RmbrRuss we have someone who knows what they are talking about.  Did anyone see that late 4th qtr play where Rose drove right to the hole and scored over Davis who at 6"7 was the tallest guy on the court? Absoluetly ridiculous. Doc had Perk in and then he subbed in Ray for Perk on defense and the only big we had out there was Davis. Rose's eyes lit up and he took it straight to the basket.   Horrible coaching move, couldn't even beleived it happened.   I kept saying start Moore over Davis it is the only thing we can do to increase our size and these so called fans on here kept criticizing me by criticizing Moore's skills.  It is ridiculous. Yes Moore isn't the greatest player ever, but Davis is just a really good player, he isn't a superstar plus he is only a 2nd year guy. I'm not criticizing Davis, but all these so called fans on here keep criticizing Moore. He wouldn't be in the NBA if he couldn't play, give the guy a chance.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2009, 03:16:48 AM »

Offline ma11l

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I think a real problem is Glen Davis getting 3 rebounds in 40 minutes while Joakim Noah got 17...  









Amen.
"Take this down," said O'Neal. "My name is Shaquille O'Neal and Paul Pierce is the (expletive) truth. Quote me on that and don't take nothing out. I knew he could play, but I didn't know he could play like this. Paul Pierce is the truth."

Re: The real problem
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2009, 03:57:50 AM »

Offline PosImpos

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Finally, RmbrRuss we have someone who knows what they are talking about.  Did anyone see that late 4th qtr play where Rose drove right to the hole and scored over Davis who at 6"7 was the tallest guy on the court? Absoluetly ridiculous. Doc had Perk in and then he subbed in Ray for Perk on defense and the only big we had out there was Davis. Rose's eyes lit up and he took it straight to the basket.   Horrible coaching move, couldn't even beleived it happened.   I kept saying start Moore over Davis it is the only thing we can do to increase our size and these so called fans on here kept criticizing me by criticizing Moore's skills.  It is ridiculous. Yes Moore isn't the greatest player ever, but Davis is just a really good player, he isn't a superstar plus he is only a 2nd year guy. I'm not criticizing Davis, but all these so called fans on here keep criticizing Moore. He wouldn't be in the NBA if he couldn't play, give the guy a chance.

Yeah, I remember that play, and I remember being shocked that Perk wasn't in.  I was like "uhm did he foul out when I wasn't looking?"

That said, the idea of starting Moore over Perk is ludicrous.  Perk's physicality, rebounding ability, and scoring ability are all far superior to Moore, and the fact that he's a couple inches shorter doesn't change that.

I agree that Powe should start and against teams with longer bigs we should probably use Moore more (heheh...) than normal.  Davis should get fewer minutes against teams with larger lineups.  He's a great kid and he's playing his ass off a lot of the time, but the height he gives up is just a huge deal against certain teams.

If only we had somebody as good as Davis / Powe who was 6'11''+
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 04:03:05 AM by PosImpos »
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Re: The real problem
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2009, 07:38:01 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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I think ball movement, along with a lack of defensive intensity, was definitely one of the main culprits in not only yesterday's loss but for most of this year's losses. Even when KG played it's been obvious since the start of the season that this team didn't move the ball around nearly as well as they did last year.

And did anyone else notice that Rondo didn't seem to pass the ball to Ray at all in the 2nd half? After the first couplke of minutes I noticed it and then timed it. There was a period of over 13 minutes in the second half where Rondo never passed the ball to Ray. Not once.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2009, 02:39:56 PM »

Offline PosImpos

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And did anyone else notice that Rondo didn't seem to pass the ball to Ray at all in the 2nd half? After the first couplke of minutes I noticed it and then timed it. There was a period of over 13 minutes in the second half where Rondo never passed the ball to Ray. Not once.

Can't say that I blame him, at least as far as giving Ray the ball to shoot.
Never forget the Champs of '08, or the gutsy warriors of '10.

"I know you all wanna win, but you gotta do it TOGETHER!"
- Doc Rivers

Re: The real problem
« Reply #27 on: April 19, 2009, 02:52:42 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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The real problem is our most important player is gone. That closes the gap quite a bit between us and the post-trade Bulls, and we are prone to upsets.

I hope no one will try to blame convoluted reasons in the next round, where we will already be the inferior team.

Re: The real problem
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2009, 05:25:05 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Let me just say that all I've wanted Rondo to do individually he did last night, so I'll give him praise for that, he was aggressive with is game and shot the ball when the shot became available, no hesitation.

But his flaws in running the offense, which have been one of my main problems with him, showed up last night.

What I mean by this, is that first he really doesn't time passes well for one, and many times he's inaccurate. Earlier in the season, during our big winning streak, these were two things he was improving upon, and it mainly showed up with the two-men dynamic between himself and Ray... which in turn made Ray Allen successful. As Ray himself put it, his success this year his tied with Rondo's play. And last night Rondo was quite bad in this department, since early in the game he was missing Ray coming off screens, and when he did give him the ball it was late or not passed to the right spot. Though, I'll also say that Ray was quite bad last night, but as a rhythm shooter I can't just discount the effect that Rondo's play has on it. If we're going to give Rondo credit when Ray is having a great night because of his passing, it stands to reason that Rondo also should share some of the blame when Ray struggles and Rondo is doing a bad job moving the ball.

The play that really got to me was in the second half, we were on a fastbreak and Ray was in position to have a rhythm transition three, which is money for him and I thought there was a good chance that with that play he could break out of his funk. But what happened? Rondo didn't trust his future hall-of-famer shooting guard, and kept the ball looking for other options that weren't there, with two men keeping him from the basket (when Ray would've completely wide open)... after a few seconds of hesitation, he finally delivers Ray the ball... but he is no longer in rhythm and I think his shot was contested, and he delivered a brick. Would he have made the shot had Rondo given him the ball as he should? Who knows, but you don't deny him the ball in that situation regardless.

Secondly, he does a poor job penetrating in order to draw defenders towards himself and then find the open man. This should be his next thing in line to develop, that penetrating doesn't always have to be about him getting to the basket, and to learn to pentrate in a slower speed. What it's ocurring now is that he penetrates and he's forcing shots, instead of threatening just enough to open things up. This is one thing that Rose did quite well last night, which lead to some really good passes to either Thomas and Noah.

Thirdly, which is one that frustrates me the most is that he stands around dribbling the ball, and does nothing else waiting for someone (often Ray) to make himself available. To me that's just unacceptable because by the time he makes that first pass, we're often down to the 10-15 second mark of the shotclock. What he should be doing is while Ray is running through screens and stuff, Rondo should be looking at the other options on the floor, while at the same time keeping Rose on his toes by threatening to penetrate... this way you don't waste 10-14 seconds doing nothing, just to pass it off to Ray with no shot. He needs to learn how to play within the meat of the defense, causing havoc while other parts of the offensive system develop. I really don't know if this is simply a poor offensive system that has him doing that, or if it's simply Rondo's inexperience with him having tunnel vision.

And fourth, poor ball movement, which has to start with Rondo (and it's quite related to my 3rd point). Rondo held on to the ball the whole night, just to have 7 assists from a poor total of 16 from our team. But this topic has been addressed many times in this thread already.

Now this is not Rondo related, but man it really annoys me how little off the ball movement we have. Don't really know who the blame for this goes, if it's poor execution or a bad offensive system. Ray is about the only one that gets some off the ball movement. The rest just stand around waiting for something to happen.

Now, there were many other problems (like Baby, that even though he was having a good game overall, his basketball IQ didn't show up and it cost us at times), but these are the main things I think we should clean up. And overall, I thought Rondo had a great game, and I hate to criticize him much for yesterday, but if he did some of the things I mention here, we would've been better off. And he's running our offense, and with that a lot of the responsibility falls on him regardless of how well he plays individually.


With all of this said, we played a very very bad game, and Chicago played it's absolute best... and we were one freethrow away from winning it. Not at all worried at the moment. Chicago will be done in no time.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 05:40:24 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: The real problem
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2009, 05:56:14 PM »

Offline kenmaine

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Let me just say that all I've wanted Rondo to do individually he did last night, so I'll give him praise for that, he was aggressive with is game and shot the ball when the shot became available, no hesitation.

But his flaws in running the offense, which have been one of my main problems with him, showed up last night.

What I mean by this, is that first he really doesn't time passes well for one, and many times he's inaccurate. Earlier in the season, during our big winning streak, these were two things he was improving upon, and it mainly showed up with the two-men dynamic between himself and Ray... which in turn made Ray Allen successful. As Ray himself put it, his success this year his tied with Rondo's play. And last night Rondo was quite bad in this department, since early in the game he was missing Ray coming off screens, and when he did give him the ball it was late or not passed to the right spot. Though, I'll also say that Ray was quite bad last night, but as a rhythm shooter I can't just discount the effect that Rondo's play has on it. If we're going to give Rondo credit when Ray is having a great night because of his passing, it stands to reason that Rondo also should share some of the blame when Ray struggles and Rondo is doing a bad job moving the ball.

The play that really got to me was in the second half, we were on a fastbreak and Ray was in position to have a rhythm transition three, which is money for him and I thought there was a good chance that with that play he could break out of his funk. But what happened? Rondo didn't trust his future hall-of-famer shooting guard, and kept the ball looking for other options that weren't there, with two men keeping him from the basket (when Ray would've completely wide open)... after a few seconds of hesitation, he finally delivers Ray the ball... but he is no longer in rhythm and I think his shot was contested, and he delivered a brick. Would he have made the shot had Rondo given him the ball as he should? Who knows, but you don't deny him the ball in that situation regardless.

Secondly, he does a poor job penetrating in order to draw defenders towards himself and then find the open man. This should be his next thing in line to develop, that penetrating doesn't always have to be about him getting to the basket, and to learn to pentrate in a slower speed. What it's ocurring now is that he penetrates and he's forcing shots, instead of threatening just enough to open things up. This is one thing that Rose did quite well last night, which lead to some really good passes to either Thomas and Noah.

Thirdly, which is one that frustrates me the most is that he stands around dribbling the ball, and does nothing else waiting for someone (often Ray) to make himself available. To me that's just unacceptable because by the time he makes that first pass, we're often down to the 10-15 second mark of the shotclock. What he should be doing is while Ray is running through screens and stuff, Rondo should be looking at the other options on the floor, while at the same time keeping Rose on his toes by threatening to penetrate... this way you don't waste 10-14 seconds doing nothing, just to pass it off to Ray with no shot. He needs to learn how to play within the meat of the defense, causing havoc while other parts of the offensive system develop. I really don't know if this is simply a poor offensive system that has him doing that, or if it's simply Rondo's inexperience with him having tunnel vision.

And fourth, poor ball movement, which has to start with Rondo (and it's quite related to my 3rd point). Rondo held on to the ball the whole night, just to have 7 assists from a poor total of 16 from our team. But this topic has been addressed many times in this thread already.

Now this is not Rondo related, but man it really annoys me how little off the ball movement we have. Don't really know who the blame for this goes, if it's poor execution or a bad offensive system. Ray is about the only one that gets some off the ball movement. The rest just stand around waiting for something to happen.

Now, there were many other problems (like Baby, that even though he was having a good game overall, his basketball IQ didn't show up and it cost us at times), but these are the main things I think we should clean up. And overall, I thought Rondo had a great game, and I hate to criticize him much for yesterday, but if he did some of the things I mention here, we would've been better off. And he's running our offense, and with that a lot of the responsibility falls on him regardless of how well he plays individually.


With all of this said, we played a very very bad game, and Chicago played it's absolute best... and we were one freethrow away from winning it. Not at all worried at the moment. Chicago will be done in no time.




Yup, Ray shooting 1 for 13 or whatever was Rondo's fault.