So who in the NBA is using or used roids?

[cdif911]

We've all heard of Roid Rage...I gotta go with Thibs.  Have you watched him during a game?  Wow.  Each defensive trip down the floor for the C's, he turns into Lyle Alzado!

wait a minute, maybe Tommy Heinsohn's on the juice, that'd explain so much

[Fan from VT]

Random thoughts about steroids in Basketball:

Don't forget that the conventional wisdom in Baseball was that "hitters don't use steroids because it would limit their quickness if they were too muscle bound." Obvious hogwash. Is this any different than assuming that smaller, quicker players wouldn't use steroids in the NBA? No. If steroids make you faster and jump higher, it would help in the NBA.


Re: Barkley's comments: clearly, many of these athletes have gone through periods of rapid and extreme muscle growth.


Remember that a lot of people assumed pitchers in baseball would never use steroids because strength was supposedly not an issue for them? Well, turns out tons of pitchers juice because the major benefits from steroid use are:
a. quicker recovery time from injuries
b. quicker recovery time from aerobic and anaerobic workouts.
Would both of those benefit NBA players? Absolutely.


From what I gather, the NBA has the most relaxed testing policy of any of the major sports.




I think that the idea that poor people can't afford steroids is laughable. Dominican born baseball players aren't exactly swimming in cash, but they get their hands on all sorts of weird drugs. Considering the potential amount of money at stake, as well as the institutionalized corruption of booster/agent figures, there's no doubt that steroids are available at basically every high school in the U.S.




I have no doubt that there is a significant portion of the NBA using steroids. I could not possibly begin to make a list; that would be pure hearsay. But I can say two things. I would not be surprised if:
a. several players of varying NBA success used steroids or HGH in younger developmental periods
b. several "Fringe" NBA players use steroids in an attempt to gain an athletic edge in order to help secure an NBA contract and not be forced to play in the NBDL. If you're not the most skilled player, and you depend on athleticism, why not try to take advantage of a relatively lax testing system to secure yourself that last contract?

[KCattheStripe]

Random thoughts about steroids in Basketball:
Re: Barkley's comments: clearly, many of these athletes have gone through periods of rapid and extreme muscle growth.

Now thats just dirty. 

[shiggins]

It looks like nobody has posted this yet and I hate to be a killjoy, but...

I know basketball doesn't lend itself to steroids as much as other sports, but you cannot tell me that out of that many pro athletes nobody is using. And I said roids, not "banned substances" cause then everyone would yell Lebron and Oden at the same time.

I got in no particular order....Shaq, karl malone, D Howard, Kenyon Martin, Chauncey Billups, Lamar Odom, Steve Nash, Amare Stoudamire, Yao Ming, Wang Zhi Zhi, Emeka Okafor, Shawn Marion, Jermaine O'Neal, Gilbert Arenas, Zach Randolph, James Posey, Eddy Curry, Stephon Marbury, Rasheed Wallace, Spree, Kevin Martin, Hakkim Warrik, Michael Redd, Ron Artest, Perk, Rondo, D Wade

and I guess that's it for now

I always had a feeling that Wang ZhiZhi was too physically imposing to be legit...

[Eja117]

eja117, i'm curious why you selected some of these guys. most don't have the physical appearance of a steroid user in my opinion. do you mean maybe beause ceratin guys have bad tempers or something? or do you mean a kind of roid that lance armstrong was accused of?

Good questions. I wouldn't say I am exactly accusing these athletes. More like I wouldn't be even a little surprised. In fact I'd be surprised if out of this whole list nobody used. There are some on the list I don't remember why I put them on. Like Lamar Odom. But the rest I looked at these factors.

Did the guy go from not so good to unbelievably good out of absolutely nowhere and stay pretty good at an advanced age?  Steve Nash

Did the guy make some sort of miracle recovery or have a situation where he would definitely want it?  many guys

Did the guy appear to be by far one of the strongest players ever and did it have to do with just good exercise and diet (yeah right). Karl Malone? Roger Clemens

Was the size and/or physical ability of the player out of this world at a young age? Shaq, Lebron, Greg Oden, D Howard

Did something appear weird or physically awkward about the player and unnatural? Oden. Lebron. Scottie Pippen's cartoonish nose.

Does the player look jacked for no real reason or really sculpt his body (Perk, Rondo)

Is the player faster than Speedy Gonzalez on speed (Rondo, Iverson, Marcus Banks)

Yes I looked at demeanor. If the dude has problems that could point out something to me. Spree and Artest

If the player seems excellent at two positions where he is strong enough to play against bigger guys but fast enough to play with smaller guys and excell at both positions I looked at that (Hakkim Warrick, Ron Artest)

I thought the Nate Robinson point was a good one.

And lastly as sad as it is if a player seems above reproach or claims to be then that to me is a prime suspect. (Lance Armstrong, Clemens, A-Rod, Rafael Palmeiro)

I'm tired of believing things that are unbelievable in sports. I don't believe that at the age of 40 Jerry Rice came back naturally from a snapped ACL within the same season. I'm not sure how much I beleive Cal Ripken was all natural. I'm not sure I beleive Nolan Ryan threw no hitters in his 40s all natural. I'm not so sure I think Mike Vick was just really fast. When Deion Sanders showed up at the combine and ran a 4.21, then ran a 4.6 backwards and left, I'm not so sure he was just really talented. When Mike Mamula an a linebacker was the strongest guy at the combine and also faster than the wide receivers and was a junior....well if you guys want to believe all that fine by me, but I'd like to try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge and some magic beans.

Also I can definitely tell you from experience that performance enhancers work just fine in basketball.

[nickagneta]

First off, I am not naive to believe that the NBA doesn't have a secret hidden problem with Performance Enhancing Drugs(PEDs). There's too much money at stake and too much money available to athletes in a professional athletic environment that is the most relaxed and least policed regarding drug use, in general, and PEDs, in particular. I think they exist in the NBA, it's just not their turn to be held under the microscope of public opinion on it just yet.

Regarding Barkley's comment that PEDs would be hard to hide in basketball due to the uniforms and being able to see rapid muscle growth, I find that comical. It just so happens that it was during the Sir Charles/MJ generation that players suddenly started having extremely defined physiques and big men started putting on lots of muscle while at the same time uniforms got bigger and looser fitting and started hiding more of the basketball player's body. I do not believe that looser, larger clothing and sudden muscle size and definition of NBA players both emerging at the exact same time was just a coincidence.

Regarding poor people being able to get drugs....you have got to be kidding me. Poor people in the ghetto always seem to have money for recreational drugs why would an athlete from the same area be unable to get PEDs. The concept is comical. I live in a very, very poor city here in Massachusetts who's football team regularly wins state championships. The players on the team have been accused of taking steroids for the better part of a couple of decades here in Everett, Ma and there's a reason for it. Because in some cases, it's true. Now for a small northern city we've put a lot of players in Division I football and sent a bunch to the NFL, so there is a football legacy here, but again, I'm not naive enough to believe that a lot of the kids at the high school arent on a PED.

As for Dominican baseball players, well, that's a bit different in that anywhere in the world but the USA you can go up to a pharmacy and buy narcotis cheap. Just went on a cruise and in a Belize pharmacy I went in you can buy 100 vicodin or oxycontin, or demerol for $30. Drugs outside the US are easy to get and very cheap so for kids in the Dominican they look at that stuff as a way out. They find the money and the PEDs and get them if it means going to a MLB academy an getting a contract.

So although I think it exists in the NBA, I would prefer not to speculate as to who might currently be on any but I can see where due to their facial features and size players like Lebron and Greg Oden are called into question as having used before entering the NBA. Especially Oden who also has an injury history. I know some PEDs can make the body(ligaments and tendons especially) rather brittle after coming off them so who knows.

[Danimals]

First off, I am not naive to believe that the NBA doesn't have a secret hidden problem with Performance Enhancing Drugs(PEDs). There's too much money at stake and too much money available to athletes in a professional athletic environment that is the most relaxed and least policed regarding drug use, in general, and PEDs, in particular. I think they exist in the NBA, it's just not their turn to be held under the microscope of public opinion on it just yet.

Sounds perfectly reasonable. I totally agree.

Regarding Barkley's comment that PEDs would be hard to hide in basketball due to the uniforms and being able to see rapid muscle growth, I find that comical. It just so happens that it was during the Sir Charles/MJ generation that players suddenly started having extremely defined physiques and big men started putting on lots of muscle while at the same time uniforms got bigger and looser fitting and started hiding more of the basketball player's body. I do not believe that looser, larger clothing and sudden muscle size and definition of NBA players both emerging at the exact same time was just a coincidence."

Again, sounds very reasonable...

But with all due respect, by your very logic, how do we explain the many fit, seemingly "health-conscious" Californians and their obese cousins in the deep South. Is everyone in California on roids?

Many Americans have roots in the UK. Go visit Scotland. Notice how you and your sister tower over the locals. Has to be PEDs, right?

Asian American kids look nothing like their short, frail immigrant parents. No way is that natural, right?

Just look at brother, sisters, and cousins separated by political boundaries in North and South Korea. Stark height and weight differences. Those South Koreans have got to be juicing, right?

To anyone with absolute certainty, one way or another: Blessed are those with minds too small for doubt.

Regarding poor people [not] being able to get drugs....you have got to be kidding me. Poor people in the ghetto always seem to have money for recreational drugs...

Why resort to a straw man argument? No one said anything about poor people never using drugs.

My point was (and remains) that asserting that poor people are less likely to be drug users is just as unsubstantiated as the popular assertion you seem to espouse that people living in less affluent neighborhoods are all on crack cocaine. 

Especially laughable in today’s economy would be the naïve assertion that capitalism is a self-regulating system elegantly based purely upon supply and demand. It isn't. Many variables factor in. Opportunity cost for one.

For instance, poor people have extraordinary incentive for higher education. By your logic however, they undoubtedly also have easy access to academic performance enhancing "substances". How then do you reconcile this with the real lack of after school programs in such neighborhoods? And please tell us all where there is a Barnes and Noble in Inglewood, or Compton, or East LA.

Supply and demand: Given the dire need, there must be platoons of shady, back-alleys dealers in those places, pandering illegal SAT scams and doctoral theses, right?

Given their "unlikely" success, maybe we should all entertain the possibility that Harvard alums, Obama and Michelle, were both “academically juiced"? Lincoln came from a humble background as well. No way can he be legit, reading and self-studying. Too bad they didn’t test for “academic juicing” back then.

I live in a very, very poor city here in Massachusetts who's football team regularly wins state championships. The players on the team have been accused of taking steroids for the better part of a couple of decades here in Everett, Ma and there's a reason for it. Because in some cases, it's true. Now for a small northern city we've put a lot of players in Division I football and sent a bunch to the NFL, so there is a football legacy here, but again, I'm not naive enough to believe that a lot of the kids at the high school arent on a PED.

Beverly Hills HS had the shiniest, most expensive musical instruments and uniforms. But their musical ability was shockingly mediocre. Inglewood HS marching band was the very opposite in every way.

Must we all be naïve if we sometimes grant others the benefit of the doubt - that their achievements can be legit?

Or were those flute and clarinet playing crackheads somehow juiced to the max (on loans and stolen credit cards, no doubt)?

Again, conjectures, one way or another, are fun. Let’s just not take anything unsubstantiated too seriously.

[celticswillwin43]

We've all heard of Roid Rage...I gotta go with Thibs.  Have you watched him during a game?  Wow.  Each defensive trip down the floor for the C's, he turns into Lyle Alzado!

wait a minute, maybe Tommy Heinsohn's on the juice, that'd explain so much

don't make fun of tom please

[crownsy]

well if the other thread on lebron being a roid user taught me anything, its that we can settle this quite simply, someone start smelling these players farts.

[nickagneta]

But with all due respect, by your very logic, how do we explain the many fit, seemingly "health-conscious" Californians and their obese cousins in the deep South. Is everyone in California on roids?

Many Americans have roots in the UK. Go visit Scotland. Notice how you and your sister tower over the locals. Has to be PEDs, right?

Asian American kids look nothing like their short, frail immigrant parents. No way is that natural, right?

Just look at brother, sisters, and cousins separated by political boundaries in North and South Korea. Stark height and weight differences. Those South Koreans have got to be juicing, right?

To anyone with absolute certainty, one way or another: Blessed are those with minds too small for doubt.

I really don't have to explain anything that you brought up because I wasn't talking about any of that. I was speaking specifically about a group of athletes that were extremely fit and athletic going from extremely fit and athletic to large, muscularly defined and extremely fit and athletic and wearing larger, looser fitting clothing. The relative fitness of Californians vs the relative obesity of southerns who's lifestyle is much slower doesn't matter. Neither does the growth differences of races of people. What mattered was what Barkley said about it being easy to tell if players were on PEDs. All I said was that I thought his comment comical because it was during his basketball era were players got bigger(not taller), more muscular and started wearing clothing that would hide that fact better than the tighty, whities that teams used to wear. I am not saying that all players during that era used PEDs. Most probably hit the weight room. But during an era where PEDs became so prevalent in sports, I don't believe that there weren't a good many that were using in the NBA and possibly didn't push for different clothing to hide the fact.

Why resort to a straw man argument? No one said anything about poor people never using drugs.

My point was (and remains) that asserting that poor people are less likely to be drug users is just as unsubstantiated as the popular assertion you seem to espouse that people living in less affluent neighborhoods are all on crack cocaine. 

Especially laughable in today’s economy would be the naïve assertion that capitalism is a self-regulating system elegantly based purely upon supply and demand. It isn't. Many variables factor in. Opportunity cost for one.

For instance, poor people have extraordinary incentive for higher education. By your logic however, they undoubtedly also have easy access to academic performance enhancing "substances". How then do you reconcile this with the real lack of after school programs in such neighborhoods? And please tell us all where there is a Barnes and Noble in Inglewood, or Compton, or East LA.

Supply and demand: Given the dire need, there must be platoons of shady, back-alleys dealers in those places, pandering illegal SAT scams and doctoral theses, right?

Given their "unlikely" success, maybe we should all entertain the possibility that Harvard alums, Obama and Michelle, were both “academically juiced"? Lincoln came from a humble background as well. No way can he be legit, reading and self-studying. Too bad they didn’t test for “academic juicing” back then.

All very nice debate topics but not a one that is actually about the subject at hand. here is what you said:

So kids there aren't as likely to shoot up designer drugs to dull the pain and pressure of excelling to meet their old man's high expectations. And Junior isn't liking to be using his allowance to get juiced, because most likely, Junior doesn't have an allowance (unlike kids from more affluent communities who are dreaming of being future studs in sports like baseball, wrestling, and cycling.

Being a kid from a poor upbring once and being in a community that is rife with crime, gangs, and a definite drug problem, I know for a fact that kids in poor communities have access to money and have access to drugs of all types, PEDs included. My son is involved with the current local HS football team, he knows that very poor kids there use. None of that is conjecture, it is real and it is the truth. I've been in the poorest of poor sections of Philly, Boston, New York and Chicago. I have family in three of those cities and customers in two. Those poor areas have had rampant drug problems for a generation. Your assertion that Junior doesn't have the money to buy drugs of any type whereas affluent kids have that allowance to buy them is wrong. Dead wrong.

I believe that the vast majority of all professional athletes are clean and have never used. But I also believe that a really good sized minority has used and continues to use. Jose Canseco was ridiculed for his assertion that a large majority of MLB players used and that it included even the biggest names. He sold tons of books but was ridiculed for his stance. It's turning out Jose was right. I'd love to believe that every champion in every sport over the last 25 years was 100% clean from the get go, but I think that the notion, given what we have seen in other sports(baseball, football, track, cycling, etc,) is seriously flawed and is more of an ostrich's head in the sand mentality.Pros use and I think pros in the NBA use just like they do in other sports at all levels, from high school up.

Look at it this way, the NBA has a drug policy and yet it has been known for decades that the NBA culture is awash in marijuana use. I don't think marijuana is a banned substance in the NBA drug policy. But if the league is so lax in policing drugs that are illegal in society, why am I to believe that the league isn't turning a blind eye to every other drug, including PEDs. Cocaine was a huge NBA problem in the eighties and yet, who was banned from playing because of it? Just about no one or no one. The NBA doesn't care if their athletes use. That's fairly obvious.

[ederson]

It may seem more difficult for poors to get drugs but they have the greatest motive to use them.

Look at it this way, the NBA has a drug policy and yet it has been known for decades that the NBA culture is awash in marijuana use. I don't think marijuana is a banned substance in the NBA drug policy. But if the league is so lax in policing drugs that are illegal in society, why am I to believe that the league isn't turning a blind eye to every other drug, including PEDs. Cocaine was a huge NBA problem in the eighties and yet, who was banned from playing because of it? Just about no one or no one. The NBA doesn't care if their athletes use. That's fairly obvious.

Doesn`t it look strange that in the olympic games WADA is not allowed to check team USA for illegal substances?

[Rida]

for me Dwight Howard is a logical candidate after one summer he came back to the NBA with a bod like David Robinsons. The muscle growth was unbelievable

[cornbreadsmart]

i'm not saying guys don't use . i don't know but basketball players are awesome athletes that work extremely hard for the most part. there are flat out fat messes all over in baseball. sorry but on the average i'm thinking a baseball player will take the easy way out more often. i laugh my arse off when baseball players are pulling hamstrings all over the place just from running 90 feet. it's comical.some of these baseball players should not even be considered athletes. but hey even take a great hitter like david ortiz. the guy is awesome right? he's also fat. you jut can't compare.

[Jon]

hypotheticals, assumptions, and defamation of character....gotta love celticsblog

Aren't at least the first two things part of the very nature of a message board?  Furthermore, don't we spend half our time bashing someone or another on this board?  No one ever stops then.

And it's not like the almighty Celticsblog Message Board is going to ruin LeBron or Howard's career if we toss around accusations.  We're hardly SportsCenter. 

Plus, if you're a famous athlete making millions of dollars, it comes with the job to be under public scrutiny.  Thus, I don't hesitate to say that it wouldn't shock me to see LeBron James caught some day.  It also wouldn't surprise me if his body just secreted an unnatural amount of HGH (being NBA height in itself isn't normal). 

[Greenbean]

eja117, i'm curious why you selected some of these guys. most don't have the physical appearance of a steroid user in my opinion. do you mean maybe beause ceratin guys have bad tempers or something? or do you mean a kind of roid that lance armstrong was accused of?

Good questions. I wouldn't say I am exactly accusing these athletes. More like I wouldn't be even a little surprised. In fact I'd be surprised if out of this whole list nobody used. There are some on the list I don't remember why I put them on. Like Lamar Odom. But the rest I looked at these factors.

Did the guy go from not so good to unbelievably good out of absolutely nowhere and stay pretty good at an advanced age?  Steve Nash

Did the guy make some sort of miracle recovery or have a situation where he would definitely want it?  many guys

Did the guy appear to be by far one of the strongest players ever and did it have to do with just good exercise and diet (yeah right). Karl Malone? Roger Clemens

Was the size and/or physical ability of the player out of this world at a young age? Shaq, Lebron, Greg Oden, D Howard

Did something appear weird or physically awkward about the player and unnatural? Oden. Lebron. Scottie Pippen's cartoonish nose.

Does the player look jacked for no real reason or really sculpt his body (Perk, Rondo)

Is the player faster than Speedy Gonzalez on speed (Rondo, Iverson, Marcus Banks)

Yes I looked at demeanor. If the dude has problems that could point out something to me. Spree and Artest

If the player seems excellent at two positions where he is strong enough to play against bigger guys but fast enough to play with smaller guys and excell at both positions I looked at that (Hakkim Warrick, Ron Artest)

I thought the Nate Robinson point was a good one.

And lastly as sad as it is if a player seems above reproach or claims to be then that to me is a prime suspect. (Lance Armstrong, Clemens, A-Rod, Rafael Palmeiro)

I'm tired of believing things that are unbelievable in sports. I don't believe that at the age of 40 Jerry Rice came back naturally from a snapped ACL within the same season. I'm not sure how much I beleive Cal Ripken was all natural. I'm not sure I beleive Nolan Ryan threw no hitters in his 40s all natural. I'm not so sure I think Mike Vick was just really fast. When Deion Sanders showed up at the combine and ran a 4.21, then ran a 4.6 backwards and left, I'm not so sure he was just really talented. When Mike Mamula an a linebacker was the strongest guy at the combine and also faster than the wide receivers and was a junior....well if you guys want to believe all that fine by me, but I'd like to try to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge and some magic beans.

Also I can definitely tell you from experience that performance enhancers work just fine in basketball.

If I felt this way I wouldn't watch ANY sports. Most of the reason I do is to see people do amazing things that I know I could NEVER do without first the talent and second a lifetime of hard work and dedication. I dont want to discount your opinion because you are entitled to think whatever you want, but I feel bad that you cannot see amazing sporting achievements without automaticall thinking the athlete cheated.