Author Topic: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?  (Read 3235 times)

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Offline nickagneta

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As I was reading through the "This Season's MVP?" thread, I couldn't help but notice that one of the underlying themes was that a team's record made a difference in determining the winner of the award in many people's eyes. It brought me back to a pre-All-Star game halftime on TNT where Gary Payton, Kenny Smith and Chris Webber were debating the merits of certain players and again the underlying factor was team record.

So, I ask. Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?

Many people this year are going to automatically narrow down the MVP to Kobe and LeBron because their teams are extremely successful and because Kobe and LeBron are great players putting up great stats on great teams. But it could be argued that Dwayne Wade and Chris Paul are actually having better statistical seasons than Kobe and LeBron and are much more valuable to their teams than either of the one name stars are to theirs. They have less talent around the so they probably should have teams with worse records.

Should CP3 and Wade's amazing years be ignored simply because their teams aren't that good(Miami) or have had a slip back in record and standing(New Orleans)? Another example is the Defensive Player of the Year Award. Ask anyone over the last five years who the NBA's best defensive player is and the name you will probably have heard more than any other was Ron Artest. But he's only won one DPOY award. That would be back when he played in Indiana in 2003-04, the last time he was on a good team. This year Artest is once again on a good team and will most probably get a bunch of votes for DPOY. Which factor has been more important in Artest not getting the recognition since 2004, the quality of his defense or the quality of his teams?

Did Big Al Jefferson not make the ASG because he was on a bad team? Last year, Hedo Turkoglu won MIP but did he really improve more than a player like Chris Kaman, who took a giant leap forward with his game last year or did Kaman just get passed over because he was on a bad team? The seasons before, Boris Diaw and Monta Ellis were winners in the MIP category and were on good teams those years. Did Ellis really improve more than a player like Kevin Martin or did he just play on a better team? The same could be said about Diaw and David West who took a huge leap forward that year.

I think there is ample evidence to support the fact that NBA awards' voters take team success into account in the awarding of just about every accolade there is in the NBA except Rookie of the Year. But should they?

I, for one, think it shouldn't because players can not determine the players on their teams, the coaches on their teams or the players that get played. They can only do their part as best they can and attempt to influence the outcome of a game as much as they can. But basketball is a team game and as the 60's Celtics proved, one player, no matter how great, can never beat a team of 5.

It could be, much of Diaw's and Ellis' and Turkoglu's improvement could be attributable to the quality of the players they were playing with. On the other hand, it could also be argued that players on bad teams get more opportunity to shoot and dominate play, thereby racking up better numbers and appearing to be better than they are. Of course, the counter is those players on those teams are garnering more attention by other teams to stop them because they are one of only a couple of good players on that team so their success is even more impressive. The same argument could be created about the MVP award.

I think the award voters need to start taking into effect every improved player and every valuable player and every defensive player and stop eliminating players based solely on the teams record. It's great to award champions but that's what championship rings and the Larry O'Brien Award are for. Its time to stop ignoring deserving players of awards simply because they have the bad luck of having been on a team with no talent or a horrible coach or a truly bad GM. Individual awards are just that, individual and when determining the winners of individual awards, its time to take the team out of the determination of those individual awards.

EDIT: And don't even get me going on the Nash MVPs.

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2009, 07:46:47 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Bump

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2009, 07:50:54 PM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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I think it's fair to consider record in awards like MVP.  I mean, let's say a guy averages 30ppg, but plays on a 15 win team.  How "valuable" is he really?

I don't think team record should be the overriding factor, and I'd like to see a dominant guy like Wade get due consideration for the amazing season he's having.  However, I think record has to play a part.

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Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2009, 07:57:03 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Should be "a factor" not "the factor".


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Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2009, 08:15:55 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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See I agree with it being a factor in the MVP voting, thoug clearly not on of the overriding factors involved. But what about the other awards and All-Star game? Is it really necessary to be on a winning team to be the MIP, the DPOY, or an All-Star? I think too often many players don't get the recognition they deserve simply because they are on a bad team.

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2009, 08:27:58 PM »

Online Who

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Should be "a factor" not "the factor".
Ditto



It's greatest importance for me is in the MVP race. I don't think I would ever support a player winning MVP while having a losing record, but someone like Wade who is around or over .500 should definitely be in the conversation in my view.

Last year, I thought LeBron's record rightly counted against him because I regarded the Cavs as a 50 win team and they disappointed, and as their leader + best player he has to take some heat for that.

The team record counts for less for me in other individual accolades, but it always counts for something. Out of all of the awards, I disregard the team's record the most in the Most Improved Player Award.

I do think the team's record is important for the All-Star game but I also think most of the media take that too far these days.

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2009, 08:46:28 PM »

Offline FanInTheSouth

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I don't think that record should be much of a factor in the voting except for the MVP voting.  Agree completely with Who in that a players' team should be at least .500 to be considered.

I get really annoyed every year about the all-star game though.  The only time record should be a factor in the all-star game is if it is between two players with similar stats.  I don't see how Big Al was left off the west squad and David West was on it, and to a lesser extent how Chauncey made the team over Durant.

Also agree with Who that the MIP award should not be influenced at all by team record.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, nice post Who!  TP.

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2009, 08:48:39 PM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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yes on MVP, because how valuable are you if the team still sucks. Now the Heat don't suck, in fact they've improved dramatically and its ALL becuase of D.Wade. On ESPN some idiot had the MVP in this order

Kobe
Lebron
Duncan
Wade

Kobe and LBJ are the obvious choices but they both have a good cast around them. I'd argue that "how can Duncan be the MVP when he's been hurt and the Spurs were carried by Parker? So shouldn't he be in the MVP talk?" Now Wade on the other hand has essentially nothing around him, he has no center, Beasley is good but he's undersized at PF, and his best piece in Chalmers.

Put Wade on The Lakers or The Cavs and the are just as good (maybe better in the case of the lakers), or give Miami Big Z, or Pau and The Heat are top 4 team in the league (Celtics, Cavs, Lakers, Heat)

Re: Should team record be a determining factor on individual awards?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2009, 08:51:45 PM »

Offline Big Ticket

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As far as my opinion on the matter goes, I pretty much agree with everything Who said above.



Unrelated... I maintain my own MVP ranking and update it every week or two... just updated it today (my guesstimation of 1st place votes in parenthesis), it is a synthesis of my own feelings on the award and how I gauge voters will be voting:

The "Triumvirate of Power" Group

1.  LeBron James  (79)
2.  Kobe Bryant  (35)
3.  Dwyane Wade  (8 )

The "Where Would [Team] Be Without [Player]" Group

4.  Dwight Howard  (4)
5.  Tim Duncan
6.  Chris Paul
7.  Deron Williams

The "[Team] Might Survive Without [Player], But They'd Rather Not Find Out" Group

8.  Paul Pierce
9.  Yao Ming
10.  Brandon Roy
11.  Pau Gasol
12.  Dirk Nowitzki
13.  Joe Johnson
14.  Chauncey Billups
15.  Tony Parker
16.  Steve Nash
17.  Ray Allen
18.  Kevin Garnett
19.  Carmelo Anthony
20.  Richard Hamilton

The "Nice Stats on Bad Teams" Honorable Mention Group

21.  Kevin Durant
22.  Danny Granger
23.  Al Jefferson
24.  Devin Harris
25.  Antawn Jamison

Bold - Moved Up
Italic - Moved Down

Here is a link with added commentary and links to previous versions if anyone cares to look.


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