Mikki, I hardly knew ye

[cordobes]

It's hard not to like Mikki.

Yeah, but that doesn't make a better player than he actually is.

Moore as been as vulgar in Boston as he was in his entire NBA career so far. He is what he is, he runs the floor, hustles, hits mid-range shots and is a liability on other aspects of the game, especially in terms of rebounding and defending the post. There isn't a lot to see here and I'm surprised some people are pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised.

Never said that it did.  I *like* Mikki, I like that he busts tail and has made himself into a legit (even if below-average) NBA player.  I like that he plays hard and seems to be a fairly smart guy.  I like that he's overcome his inherent lack of talent to become a rotation player.

Doesn't mean I don't wish we had Joe Smith, and Mikki Moore leading the cheers from the bench!

Yeah, I just used your sentence to express my agreement with it and use it as a starting point to my post; I agree with pretty much everything you said.

[Roy Hobbs]

We needed a center with length who could hit the outside shot.  Signing Smith would have given us a 5th PF who would have to play out of position at 5, and still leave us with one Center.  Say what you want about Moore, but at least now our c/pf ratio is better at 2/4.

Nobody seems to be able to answer this question:  what good is length / height if it doesn't translate to rebounding, blocked shots, or defense?

Think of someone like Pau Gasol.  If he goes against Leon or Glen, he shoots over them easily all night. 

Now maybe Moore doesn't block his shot when he guards Gasol, but at least Pau doesn't get all those clean looks.  Some things just can't be quantified in statistics, like contesting shots.

Yeah, but the purported lack of clean looks isn't stopping opposing centers from shooting 60% against him.  Maybe being seven feet tall *should* be an asset, but in Moore's case, it isn't (at least on the defensive end).

How does that compare to Smith's stats?  I would be surprised if he even has a sample size to pull from, being that he has played and guarded PF's his whole career.

In roughly the same number of minutes, opposing centers have shot 8% less, and scored 4+ fewer points per 48 minutes, against Smith as compared to Moore.  Last season, you're correct, Smith didn't really play enough time at center to draw statistically relevant conclusions.

[cordobes]

If length was that important, we should have kept POB, I believe he's even longer than Moore. Or signed Mutombo, a guy who can indeed alter shots. Length can be wasted if the players don't have the defensive technique or awareness to use it properly. If they don't it doesn't matter a lot: it just makes them relatively better than shorter guys with similar quality in terms of skills.

But shorter guys with better skills can easily be better defenders. It may be easy for Gasol to get a decent shot by firing a 15 footer over Davis, but are people sure he won't get even better looks when faced with Moore? I'd rather take a shot with my gigantic defender way past me because he closed out out of control and I took him out of the way with a head fake than over a smaller defender who may not have a chance of getting close to the release point but will put both hands on my face.

[D Dub]

We needed a center with length who could hit the outside shot.  Signing Smith would have given us a 5th PF who would have to play out of position at 5, and still leave us with one Center.  Say what you want about Moore, but at least now our c/pf ratio is better at 2/4.

Nobody seems to be able to answer this question:  what good is length / height if it doesn't translate to rebounding, blocked shots, or defense?

Think of someone like Pau Gasol.  If he goes against Leon or Glen, he shoots over them easily all night. 

Now maybe Moore doesn't block his shot when he guards Gasol, but at least Pau doesn't get all those clean looks.  Some things just can't be quantified in statistics, like contesting shots.

Yeah, but the purported lack of clean looks isn't stopping opposing centers from shooting 60% against him.  Maybe being seven feet tall *should* be an asset, but in Moore's case, it isn't (at least on the defensive end).

How does that compare to Smith's stats?  I would be surprised if he even has a sample size to pull from, being that he has played and guarded PF's his whole career.

In roughly the same number of minutes, opposing centers have shot 8% less, and scored 4+ fewer points per 48 minutes, against Smith as compared to Moore.  Last season, you're correct, Smith didn't really play enough time at center to draw statistically relevant conclusions.

Thanks for the stats, Roy.  I think most will agree that Smith has had the more accomplished career.  But I will stand by my position that Moore is a better fit for this team.

We needed a full time backup center, it seems to me a true center fits that bill much better than a perimeter orientated power forward.  Especially considering our team is void of seven foot bodies.

[D Dub]

If length was that important, we should have kept POB, I believe he's even longer than Moore. Or signed Mutombo, a guy who can indeed alter shots. Length can be wasted if the players don't have the defensive technique or awareness to use it properly. If they don't it doesn't matter a lot: it just makes them relatively better than shorter guys with similar quality in terms of skills.

But shorter guys with better skills can easily be better defenders. It may be easy for Gasol to get a decent shot by firing a 15 footer over Davis, but are people sure he won't get even better looks when faced with Moore? I'd rather take a shot with my gigantic defender way past me because he closed out out of control and I took him out of the way with a head fake than over a smaller defender who may not have a chance of getting close to the release point but will put both hands on my face.

When comparing Moore to Joe Smith, I just don't see any defensive upgrade. 

Smith has never been known as a 'defender' and asking him to play out of position on a full time basis at center doesn't address the need we are trying to fill to begin with.  We have plenty of pf's who can play out of position at the 5, and all are as good as if not better than Smith.

[Toine43]

We needed a center with length who could hit the outside shot.  Signing Smith would have given us a 5th PF who would have to play out of position at 5, and still leave us with one Center.  Say what you want about Moore, but at least now our c/pf ratio is better at 2/4.

Nobody seems to be able to answer this question:  what good is length / height if it doesn't translate to rebounding, blocked shots, or defense?

Think of someone like Pau Gasol.  If he goes against Leon or Glen, he shoots over them easily all night. 

Now maybe Moore doesn't block his shot when he guards Gasol, but at least Pau doesn't get all those clean looks.  Some things just can't be quantified in statistics, like contesting shots.

Yeah, but the purported lack of clean looks isn't stopping opposing centers from shooting 60% against him.  Maybe being seven feet tall *should* be an asset, but in Moore's case, it isn't (at least on the defensive end).

How does that compare to Smith's stats?  I would be surprised if he even has a sample size to pull from, being that he has played and guarded PF's his whole career.

In roughly the same number of minutes, opposing centers have shot 8% less, and scored 4+ fewer points per 48 minutes, against Smith as compared to Moore.  Last season, you're correct, Smith didn't really play enough time at center to draw statistically relevant conclusions.

Thanks for the stats, Roy.  I think most will agree that Smith has had the more accomplished career.  But I will stand by my position that Moore is a better fit for this team.

We needed a full time backup center, it seems to me a true center fits that bill much better than a perimeter orientated power forward.  Especially considering our team is void of seven foot bodies.

But once again, like Roy's been saying, Moore is not a true center. He has height, but height does not make you a true center. Moore's playing style is nothing like a true center. On offense, Moore is perimeter oriented, just as Smith is. On defense, Moore doesn't guard PFs as well as Smith, and although Smith doesn't guard centers, Moore doesn't guard centers as well as Big Baby does. So if you're point about Moore being a better fit has to do with his defense, all I can say is that his defense stinks. And if you think that the Celtics signed Moore because he's the better fit, that's not true. Doc made it clear with his comments after Smith got bought out that Smith was the Celtics' first choice - they just signed Moore because they wanted to make sure they signed someone.

[D Dub]

My point is offensively, Moore is Smith's equal in that they both rely on their (quite effective) mid-range jumpers.

And defensively, Moore is better at guarding CENTERS than Smith is. 

Sure, everyone wanted the guy with the bigger name, but lets not pretend that Joe Smith is that much better than Moore.  These are both 8th or 9th off the bench guys. 

I am just glad we got the player that is better equipt to playing center.  It fits our needs better than the offensively minded player that would be out of position every night.

[perk17]

I dont understand all the fuss.Mikki is a solid nba player.He wanted to play for the celtics,and the celtics gave nothing to aquire him.In the three games he has played, it looks like he will fit in the celtics system quite well.Welcome aboard mikki,glad to have ya.

[D Dub]

I dont understand all the fuss.Mikki is a solid nba player.He wanted to play for the celtics,and the celtics gave nothing to aquire him.In the three games he has played, it looks like he will fit in the celtics system quite well.Welcome aboard mikki,glad to have ya.

welcome, perk17.  Here's your first TP.

[Edgar]

I dont understand all the fuss.Mikki is a solid nba player.He wanted to play for the celtics,and the celtics gave nothing to aquire him.In the three games he has played, it looks like he will fit in the celtics system quite well.Welcome aboard mikki,glad to have ya.

Hola Mikki is that u?

[TrueGreen]

I criticized Moore because he's not a great defender, he doesn't block shots, doesn't rebound, and fouls too much.

In 51 total minutes with the Celtics, he has six rebounds, zero blocks, and ten personal fouls.  He has zero defensive rebounds, and six personal fouls, in the last two games.  The Celtics have been outscored by 17 points in those 51 minutes, and by 24 points with Moore on the floor in the last three games.

I'm not ready to change my opinion quite yet.  I support him because he's a Celtic, but he's not overwhelming me.

Don't judge Moore by stats, he's not going to overwhelm anyone, he's played in 3 games and has had 2 practices and has improved over that time. And in the "outscored" stats, was anyone else on the floor with Moore? Mikki Moore is a journeyman player who will give all he has every nite. He will not hurt the team and it is very likely he will help us at some point when we really need it.

[Chief]

I'm a Mikki fan and have been for years. I was very glad when he finally got his break in NJ and even more excited when we picked him up. Having said that, I'm driving the Mikki Moore fan wagon and there is plenty of room on board. Jump on!!!! Roy, I'll save a seat for you.

[Roy Hobbs]

I'm a Mikki fan and have been for years. I was very glad when he finally got his break in NJ and even more excited when we picked him up. Having said that, I'm driving the Mikki Moore fan wagon and there is plenty of room on board. Jump on!!!! Roy, I'll save a seat for you.

Haha.  I respect Moore for his effort and passion; I'd rather have a guy like that than a slug like Blount or Eddy Curry.  However, I just don't think he's a very good player in terms of defense and rebounding.

[Chief]

I'm a Mikki fan and have been for years. I was very glad when he finally got his break in NJ and even more excited when we picked him up. Having said that, I'm driving the Mikki Moore fan wagon and there is plenty of room on board. Jump on!!!! Roy, I'll save a seat for you.

Haha.  I respect Moore for his effort and passion; I'd rather have a guy like that than a slug like Blount or Eddy Curry.  However, I just don't think he's a very good player in terms of defense and rebounding.

I agree about the block shots. He's always been a guy that takes alot of charges though. As far as rebounding, he doesn't get many himself but I think he blocks out his man very well. So I guess what I'm saying is that he might not get the rebound but usually his man does not either.

[Jon]

And not to go too off-topic here, but I think Danny knew that he was going to get Stephon too.  While that doesn't excuse him entirely for not landing Smith or Gooden (if they truly are better than Moore), I think it does put him in a better light.  For all the talk about big men, Marbury, more than anyone else signed as a buy-out, has the ability to alter the hierarchy of teams in the playoffs.  If he finds a way to integrate himself, the C's will have 5 All Star quality players, who (if it so pleases Doc) could all play at the same time for small increments here and there.  No other team can say that.  Heck, no team since Larry and Magic ran the league could say that. 

So if Marbury does find a way to integrate himself, I think we'll do just fine with Mikki Moore...even if Joe Smith might be a little better than him.