Author Topic: Rondo  (Read 4415 times)

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Rondo
« on: January 26, 2009, 12:49:26 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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Hey Guys. Don't let the topic fool you as I am not a Rondo hater, rather the exact opposite ;D

I come to you all today in search of some help. I've been debating with some friends about the ASG - specifically if Rondo will be in it or not.

I obviously think Rondo will be in the ASG (voted in by coaches) as I watch every single game, and found Jeff Clark's article to be quite convincing as well (his breakdown of the numbers was excellent).

Now, when I showed Jeff's article to my friend he responded with the following comments which i'm sure plenty of you hear a ton of:

"I still don't buy Rondo as an all star. The only part of his game that is all star material is his D. I don't particularly like his game, and I believe that the players he is playing with are the only reason he is getting all star consideration. If you put him on a team without one of the greatest shooters ever, and two other hall of famers still in the prime of their careers (and yes I still think KG could put up his Minny #s if he was so inclined) he would show that he is far from an all star. For instance, I just look back to last year's finals. Rondo had 3 good games, and 3 terrible games. The terrible games pretty much occurred when the Lakers' D had Kobe (who was supposed to be on Rondo) be a floater leaving Rondo wide open. I gather 2 things from this: 1. The Lakers obviously didn't respect Rondo's game enough to think he needed to be covered (primarily because of his atrocious shooting ability) and you don't do that to an all star; 2. in 3 of those games he was practically useless proving that he isn't a great player. I cannot in good faith call him more than a good player. If you swap him and Harris and place Rondo on the Nets, I can't see him even being in the all star conversation".

I can't begin to tell you all how annoying that was to read (i'm sure you felt the same way). The concept that Rondo is only good because he is surrounded by 3 HOF's really bothers me (along with all the other hatred/lack of respect he gets), and since I don't have time today to write a well thought out response, I'm looking at Celtics Blog for some help! Thanks in advance everyone. Tommy Points galore for points taken!
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 01:40:16 PM by Wide Load »
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 01:11:03 PM »

Online CelticsWhat35

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Don't worry about what your friend says. He's obviously a fan of an inferior team and needs to grasp at straws in criticizing the team.  He talks about how Rondo is only doing this good because he's playing with 3 future HOFers, but he's probably the same person that says the Celtics can't win it this year because the Big Three are past their prime.

To be honest, I don't think Rondo will make the all-star team.  It is a stat-driven game, and that's what the coaches look at.  Doc knows how valuable Rondo is to the team, and I'm sure every time an opposing coach plays the Celtics, they realize how valuable he is.  But they only see him a couple times before the all-star break, at most.

And when you have Devin Harris and Jameer Nelson putting up better numbers, and both teams doing better than expected, it's easier to go with them as all-star picks.  It also doesn't help when you've already got 2 or 3 teammates making the team.

I'll take Rondo over Nelson and Harris any day of the week, and he'd definitely be more fun to watch than Harris, and Nelson especially, but as I said before, coaches are gonna look at stats, and in particular points.  And the other two have him beat in that category.

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 01:17:13 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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CelticsWhat35,

Thanks for the response and thank you for your opinion. Question: why do you think coaches are only going to look at points exclusively when determining their selection? I would say it's probably the fans who look at scoring and the coaches who would take other stats (i.e. rebounds, fg%, steals, etc...) into account. Thoughts?
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 01:21:58 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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I really like Rondo, but there are two Rondo's we see out there with frequency. The good Rondo that drives to the basket and sets guys up for easy shots. The one who doesn't think about taking that jumper to keep defenses honest, and who plays good defense with his speed keeping his feet in front of his man. Then there's the bad Rondo... Who decides that he is just going to kick the ball around the perimeter and watch the big 3 do their thing. The one who sits there for 3-4 seconds wide open from 15-18 feet and won't shoot the ball. The one who drives in only occasionally throwing up a wild layup that has no chance of going in. The one who decides to play "matador" defense and try and poke the ball out from behind as the guy drives past him forcing his bigs to foul his guy...

The good Rondo is an All Star and one of the top 3-4 PG's in the league. The bad Rondo is a borderline player only decent because of the Big 3. If we saw 90% good Rondo and 10% bad Rondo not only would we be almost unstoppable as a team, he'd be a definite AS guard. The fortunate thing is the difference between the two of "them" is all in his head. Once he decides to play like he can every night, he is going to be consistently amazing. Then everyone else will know what we know.

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 01:24:15 PM »

Offline crownsy

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CelticsWhat35,

Thanks for the response and thank you for your opinion. Question: why do you think coaches are only going to look at points exclusively when determining their selection? I would say it's probably the fans who look at scoring and the coaches who would take other stats (i.e. rebounds, fg%, steals, etc...) into account. Thoughts?

because coaches only see thier own guys more than 4 times a year.

The two PG's selected for the all star game will be nelson and harris. AI screws everything up with his popularity vote in.

It should be harris, nelson and rondo at the PG spot come allstar game. What it will be is AI (wasted spot, thanks fans) harris and nelson.
“I will hurt you for this. A day will come when you think you’re safe and happy and your joy will turn to ashes in your mouth. And you will know the debt is paid.” – Tyrion

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 01:46:05 PM »

Online CelticsWhat35

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CelticsWhat35,

Thanks for the response and thank you for your opinion. Question: why do you think coaches are only going to look at points exclusively when determining their selection? I would say it's probably the fans who look at scoring and the coaches who would take other stats (i.e. rebounds, fg%, steals, etc...) into account. Thoughts?

My initial response was longer, but it got deleted, and I'm lazy, so I'll sum up:

- coaches don't care much about all-star voting; they have a lot more to worry about
- stats are the easy thing to look at; coaches only see opposing players 2-4 times a year; they're not gonna pick up on the intangibles
- 23 and 6 looks more impressive than 17 and 5 and 11 and 8
- Magic have been a surprise, and Nelson was a huge reason they went on that winning streak with his hot shooting; coaches will remember that

Re: Rondo
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 02:06:34 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Hey Guys. Don't let the topic fool you as I am not a Rondo hater, rather the exact opposite ;D

I come to you all today in search of some help. I've been debating with some friends about the ASG - specifically if Rondo will be in it or not.

I obviously think Rondo will be in the ASG (voted in by coaches) as I watch every single game, and found Jeff Clark's article to be quite convincing as well (his breakdown of the numbers was excellent).

Now, when I showed Jeff's article to my friend he responded with the following comments which i'm sure plenty of you hear a ton of:

"I still don't buy Rondo as an all star. The only part of his game that is all star material is his D. I don't particularly like his game, and I believe that the players he is playing with are the only reason he is getting all star consideration. If you put him on a team without one of the greatest shooters ever, and two other hall of famers still in the prime of their careers (and yes I still think KG could put up his Minny #s if he was so inclined) he would show that he is far from an all star. For instance, I just look back to last year's finals. Rondo had 3 good games, and 3 terrible games. The terrible games pretty much occurred when the Lakers' D had Kobe (who was supposed to be on Rondo) be a floater leaving Rondo wide open. I gather 2 things from this: 1. The Lakers obviously didn't respect Rondo's game enough to think he needed to be covered (primarily because of his atrocious shooting ability) and you don't do that to an all star; 2. in 3 of those games he was practically useless proving that he isn't a great player. I cannot in good faith call him more than a good player. If you swap him and Harris and place Rondo on the Nets, I can't see him even being in the all star conversation".


  You could explain to your friend that Rondo sprained his ankle in game 3, and LA's great defense against him just happened to coincide with the time he was hobbling around on the court...

Re: Rondo Haters
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 02:31:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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I'll take Rondo over Nelson and Harris any day of the week, and he'd definitely be more fun to watch than Harris, and Nelson especially, but as I said before, coaches are gonna look at stats, and in particular points.  And the other two have him beat in that category.

  Just curious, but has anyone else noticed that Harris is falling back to earth? He'll make the team because of his hot start but he's clearly declined as the season's one on:

  November, 26.3 ppg, 49% fg, 12.5 ft/game, 3.6 rebounds
  December: 22.3 ppg, 43% fg%, 8.9 ft/game  2.9 rebounds
  January:  16.0 ppg, 40% fg%, 5.3 ft/game  2.3 rebounds

Re: Rondo
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 03:25:48 PM »

Offline makaveli

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" If you swap him and Harris and place Rondo on the Nets, I can't see him even being in the all star conversation"

Couldn't disagree more. Usually good players on a great team (Harris in Dallas) get much more confident when they become number one or two option on a bad or average team.
Rondo would put up 15-10-5-3 numbers with ease. He is so fast and I think he can be one of those franchise players.
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

Re: Rondo
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 04:07:39 PM »

Offline youcanthandlethetruth113

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Good work team, but I was hoping for way more ammunition.

Perhaps all the golden feedback will come as the day goes on...
"Perk is not an alley-oop guy" - Tommy Heinson - Feb 27th 2008 vs. Cleveland

Re: Rondo
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 04:41:43 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Good work team, but I was hoping for way more ammunition.

Perhaps all the golden feedback will come as the day goes on...

Not knocking Rondo, but have you considered the reason that there aren't any great answers of rebuttal is that he might be right to a degree?! Rondo is hot and cold. At times he looks like an all-star and at times he doesn't look like a starter. He doesn't play the way he can play all the time, and when he doesn't we aren't near the team we can be. When he does that consistently then your argument is valid. Right now, he may be closer to the truth than you are?!

Re: Rondo
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 04:53:25 PM »

Offline BballTim

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" If you swap him and Harris and place Rondo on the Nets, I can't see him even being in the all star conversation"

Couldn't disagree more. Usually good players on a great team (Harris in Dallas) get much more confident when they become number one or two option on a bad or average team.
Rondo would put up 15-10-5-3 numbers with ease. He is so fast and I think he can be one of those franchise players.

  You'd also have to consider that if Harris were on the Celts he'd only get about 2/3 the shots he gets now, so he'd get fewer points and give us fewer assists and rebounds than Rondo without the defense.

Re: Rondo
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 05:09:02 PM »

Offline BballTim

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"If you swap him and Harris and place Rondo on the Nets, I can't see him even being in the all star conversation".


  By the way, what did your friend think of Rondo badly outplaying Harris twice in a week? Harris over 2 games: 24 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists. Rondo: 19 points, 16 rebounds, 26 assists.

Re: Rondo
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 05:23:49 PM »

Offline RAcker

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Rondo has had a great season up to this point without a doubt. However, I do not think he is making this year and there is one major reason...consistency.  Once he gets another season or maybe two under his belt, this guy will be a multi-time all-star. He just has to show everyone that he's getting nothing but better (jump shot and freethrows included) and he will begin to be feared.

Re: Rondo
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 06:12:30 PM »

Offline ManUp

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I really like Rondo, but there are two Rondo's we see out there with frequency. The good Rondo that drives to the basket and sets guys up for easy shots. The one who doesn't think about taking that jumper to keep defenses honest, and who plays good defense with his speed keeping his feet in front of his man. Then there's the bad Rondo... Who decides that he is just going to kick the ball around the perimeter and watch the big 3 do their thing. The one who sits there for 3-4 seconds wide open from 15-18 feet and won't shoot the ball. The one who drives in only occasionally throwing up a wild layup that has no chance of going in. The one who decides to play "matador" defense and try and poke the ball out from behind as the guy drives past him forcing his bigs to foul his guy...

The good Rondo is an All Star and one of the top 3-4 PG's in the league. The bad Rondo is a borderline player only decent because of the Big 3. If we saw 90% good Rondo and 10% bad Rondo not only would we be almost unstoppable as a team, he'd be a definite AS guard. The fortunate thing is the difference between the two of "them" is all in his head. Once he decides to play like he can every night, he is going to be consistently amazing. Then everyone else will know what we know.

TP, perfectly stated, Rondo's inconsistency is what's holding him back. But even with all that I still think Rondo should make it this year. I'm not sure I believe that Nelson or Harris are  better players. Especially not after they way Rondo outplayed them both.

Sidenote: Devin Harris is a shooting guard. :)