Report: Red Sox want H. Ramirez back

[Chris]

Buckholz is a head case, and Elsbury is over-rated. If we have to give them both up to get Hanley, do it. Throw in the shortstop if necessary.  This is a no-brainer.

Again, it is going to take much more than that to get Hanley.  Not happening.

[Mean Gerald Green]

The Red Sox have had Clay Buchholz a little over 3 and a half years and people still cannot spell his name. It's unreal.

It's not Buckholz

or Bucholz

or Buckholtz...

It's Clay Buchholz...write it down.

[nickagneta]

I would like to get h. ramirez but i think there was a reason why the redsox traded him in the first place. There is that 1 percent negativity i'm sure epstein holds of ramirez which is can he be a powerhouse in the AL and under a pressure situations(that playing under a redsox team)

I would seriously give up bucholz, ellsbury and either lowrie or bowden for him but not more after that.

Who else do you guys think we can get for bucholz and ellsbury?

Where do you come up wit your information?

You are aware that it wasn't Epstein that traded away Ramirez and that Epstein has said privately that he wouldn't have done that trade. But that's because the trade happened when Theo was in the middle of his gorilla suit disappearing act/power struggle/lover's spat with Larry Lucchino and the ownership. Ramirez was Epstein's poster boy for his minor league development and he had resisted trading him for a couple of years. Epstein would welcome Ramirez back with open arms as it was Epstein who all along had predicted this type of success for Ramirez.But Theo has a couple of new binkies in Buchholz and a couple of other of his pitching prospects and now he's resistant to let them go in a trade.

But in this case, Chris is hitting closest to the mark. GM's call each other all the time wondering who's available on their team. In one of those calls to the Marlins Hanley's name probably came up for all of 2 seconds in passing and word got out and suddenly you get a Hanley to the Sox rumor because the Sox got beat on the Teixeira deal.

I'd love to see this happen and personally could care less what three pitching prospects we would lose as we're loaded in the majors with young plus type arms already. But the Marlins have Hanley and aren't letting him go and believe me, Lars Anderson isn't a deal breaker. Florida just isn't dealing Ramirez.

[yall hate]

The Red Sox have had Clay Buchholz a little over 3 and a half years and people still cannot spell his name. It's unreal.

It's not Buckholz

or Bucholz

or Buckholtz...

It's Clay Buchholz...write it down.

haha... over at SOSH, if you spell it wrong, it shows up as "I am an idiot" lol.

as to Triboy's comments regarding Hanley- if I remember correctly, at the time they traded him their was a belief in the organization that his mindset/immaturity would get in the way.  whether this was true or not, as nick has mentioned, itwasnt theo that traded hanley.


Also, this has already basically been ended, since the sox tried, and the marlins said no.  Frankly, there would be no reasonable package that would work for the marlins...it WOULD likely take 4 top prospects, which is too much for the Sox to give up.  but since Hanley is very young, and under a reasonable contract, and would be the best offensive player on the sox, they would need to over pay to get him.  As absurd as it may seem, it would likely take buch, ellsbury, lars, and then something like Almanzar, exposito, etc...(a young, high high ceiling guy).  And that is more then this organization is likely willing to part with which is why these discussions likely ended. 

I would bet the Sox offered Ellsbury and Buch and were told no.

[Nerf DPOY]

But the Marlins have Hanley and aren't letting him go and believe me, Lars Anderson isn't a deal breaker. Florida just isn't dealing Ramirez.

What do mean by " isn't a deal breaker "? It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sox execs rated Anderson above Buchholz. If Lars would be involved in a deal for Ramirez, he'd be the centerpiece of the Sox offer. I have a hard time believing Theo would move both Buch and Lars for Hanley alone.

[nickagneta]

But the Marlins have Hanley and aren't letting him go and believe me, Lars Anderson isn't a deal breaker. Florida just isn't dealing Ramirez.

What do mean by " isn't a deal breaker "? It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sox execs rated Anderson above Buchholz. If Lars would be involved in a deal for Ramirez, he'd be the centerpiece of the Sox offer. I have a hard time believing Theo would move both Buch and Lars for Hanley alone.

You're kidding me right? Last year Buchholz was the highest rated pitching prospect in baseball by Baseball Prospectus and several other independent scouting groups. Buchholz' season has not diminished his status within the Sox organization. Lars has 40 HR potential. But against MLB pitching he also has 130 strikeout potential and the rest of his game is still lagging behind his hitting. He also is playing in positions that is currently being played by the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history and a man who in an off year had 23 HRs and 90 RBIs while playing hurt(DH) and by a Gold Glove winning first baseman that just finished third in the MVP voting.

Anderson is going to be traded and if he has to be traded with another high prospect to get a player the quality of Hanley Ramirez then he will be. His being included with Buchholz or Bowden or another top pitching prospect in a trade is not going to break any deal because he has little to no future here anytime in the next 3 years or so because of who is playing in front of him.

Lars will not play his first full season in the majors with the Red Sox unless major injury to Youkilis or Ortiz.

[Chris]

But the Marlins have Hanley and aren't letting him go and believe me, Lars Anderson isn't a deal breaker. Florida just isn't dealing Ramirez.

What do mean by " isn't a deal breaker "? It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sox execs rated Anderson above Buchholz. If Lars would be involved in a deal for Ramirez, he'd be the centerpiece of the Sox offer. I have a hard time believing Theo would move both Buch and Lars for Hanley alone.

You're kidding me right? Last year Buchholz was the highest rated pitching prospect in baseball by Baseball Prospectus and several other independent scouting groups. Buchholz' season has not diminished his status within the Sox organization. Lars has 40 HR potential. But against MLB pitching he also has 130 strikeout potential and the rest of his game is still lagging behind his hitting. He also is playing in positions that is currently being played by the greatest clutch hitter in Red Sox history and a man who in an off year had 23 HRs and 90 RBIs while playing hurt(DH) and by a Gold Glove winning first baseman that just finished third in the MVP voting.

Anderson is going to be traded and if he has to be traded with another high prospect to get a player the quality of Hanley Ramirez then he will be. His being included with Buchholz or Bowden or another top pitching prospect in a trade is not going to break any deal because he has little to no future here anytime in the next 3 years or so because of who is playing in front of him.

Lars will not play his first full season in the majors with the Red Sox unless major injury to Youkilis or Ortiz.

I agree about the Buchholz thing, but disagree about Lars.  I think their plan is for Youk to eventually move to third when Lowell leaves, and have Lars then move in as the first basemen.

Of course things like this can always change, but I really don't think they are motivated to move him...but no one is untouchable.

[yall hate]

Lars is still years off.  The Sox dont rush prospects and wont rush him. 

but lets be very clear, giving up lars, buch, and ellsbury would not even be that great of a loss for the sox if it ended with Hanley coming here.  Those three prospects may become something.  Hanley already is.  Hanley is young.  Hanley will keep getting better.  Those three guys from us are nice prospects and may be good, but they also could be like brian rose and be nothing.

[Nerf DPOY]

Anderson is going to be traded and if he has to be traded with another high prospect to get a player the quality of Hanley Ramirez then he will be. His being included with Buchholz or Bowden or another top pitching prospect in a trade is not going to break any deal because he has little to no future here anytime in the next 3 years or so because of who is playing in front of him.

Lars will not play his first full season in the majors with the Red Sox unless major injury to Youkilis or Ortiz.

This blockade you speak of consists of Youk, Ortiz, and Lowell (because obviously Youk can be shifted to third). For starters, Lars will most likely spend all or most of '09 in the minors. So in 2010 when he projects to be MLB ready, Youk and Lowell will be in the final years of their contracts. Ortiz will have one year and a club option for another year. Lowell will be 36, Ortiz 34, and Youk primed to get big bucks as a UFA at the end of the season. You see this scenario as a log jam? What if Anderson is the best hitter out of the quartet? It's not as outrageous as you might think, considering Papi and Lowells age and injuries, or that Youkilis may never approach his '08 numbers again. It seems ridiculously shortsighted to move Anderson because of Mike Lowell's presence on the roster.

And I'm not down on Buchholz. Far from it. I would deal Anderson and lesser prospects for Hanley. I wouldn't deal both Anderson AND Buch. I really think that he'll be better than Lester, and that's why I wouldn't move both of them, even for Ramirez.

[yall hate]

And I'm not down on Buchholz. Far from it. I would deal Anderson and lesser prospects for Hanley. I wouldn't deal both Anderson AND Buch. I really think that he'll be better than Lester, and that's why I wouldn't move both of them, even for Ramirez.

That seems crazy to me.  Obviously that is your opinion and that is fine, I respect that, but Hanley would be our best offensive player (easily) if the move was made (and he is still in his low 20's).  Lars may turn out to something or he may not.  same with Buch.  But Hanley already is something.  Hanley is basically an MVP caliber player who is only getting better. 

I'd move Buch and Lars in a nano second.

[yall hate]

btw, it should also be mentioned:

Hanley Ramirez, SS, Marlins: The Marlins made it very clear to the inquiring Red Sox that Ramirez was not available. According to a source familiar with the talks, the Sox were quickly rebuffed and word is there was never mention of players the Red Sox could offer to entice the Marlins.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/articles/2009/01/04/the_most_improved_players/?page=5

The fact that the marlins wouldnt even listen shows how much it would have taken to have gotten Hanley.

[Chris]

And I'm not down on Buchholz. Far from it. I would deal Anderson and lesser prospects for Hanley. I wouldn't deal both Anderson AND Buch. I really think that he'll be better than Lester, and that's why I wouldn't move both of them, even for Ramirez.

That seems crazy to me.  Obviously that is your opinion and that is fine, I respect that, but Hanley would be our best offensive player (easily) if the move was made (and he is still in his low 20's).  Lars may turn out to something or he may not.  same with Buch.  But Hanley already is something.  Hanley is basically an MVP caliber player who is only getting better. 

I'd move Buch and Lars in a nano second.

Me too.  My only hessitation would be when you get into 4 or 5 top prospects, and sending 2-3 top pitching prospects for a position player.  

Basically, I would offer the choice of any 3 guys (although only 2 can be pitchers) from the group of Bucholtz, Masterson, Bowden, Bard, Andersen, Ellsbury, Lowry.  Any more than that from that group (they could possibly throw in a lower rated prospect as sweetener), and it might be too rich, even for a superstar like Ramirez.

[Nerf DPOY]

 Lars may turn out to something or he may not.  same with Buch.  But Hanley already is something. 

I think that this argument is what seperates me from the rest here. I don't see Buchholz's complete dominance of the minors, or Anderson's destruction of AA pitching ( combined with extensive scouting, non-Sox even, which almost unanimously agree that he projects to be a monster bat at the MLB level) as some 50/50 chance lotto ticket situation. They're on the path to being all-star caliber players. Buchholz had a hiccup and Lars is a year away from mashing in Boston as I see it. Scoff all you want. Just look at the Sox track record of their development of prospects lately. They've put their money where their mouth is. Hanley Ramirez would be a shining example.

[yall hate]

 Lars may turn out to something or he may not.  same with Buch.  But Hanley already is something. 

I think that this argument is what seperates me from the rest here. I don't see Buchholz's complete dominance of the minors, or Anderson's destruction of AA pitching ( combined with extensive scouting, non-Sox even, which almost unanimously agree that he projects to be a monster bat at the MLB level) as some 50/50 chance lotto ticket situation. They're on the path to being all-star caliber players. Buchholz had a hiccup and Lars is a year away from mashing in Boston as I see it. Scoff all you want. Just look at the Sox track record of their development of prospects lately. They've put their money where their mouth is. Hanley Ramirez would be a shining example.

For the record, I am believing the hype that these guys will turn out to their highest potential.  but dont forget, it is only potential.  For every Hanley, Pedroia, etc...There are guys like Craig Hansen (closer of future, ready to pitch immediately after the draft, blah blah...Brian Rose won 17 games for the pawsox in 1997, never turned into anything.  Rose and Pavano were supposed to anchor Boston's rotation for YEARS., Andy Marte, supposedly the greatest power hitter in the minors when he was acquired, played 3b, supposedly a sure thing, failed miserably). 

Cant miss prospects fail all the time.  probably more often then they succeed.  That is all my point was.  If both Lars and Buch reach their potential then you have maybe, maybe made a bad trade.  but if one fails to reach their potential then it is a great trade.  and if something happens and both fail to reach that potential, well then not moving them for a proven all star, MVP caliber, young player turns out to be horrible.  Speculation v. Guarantee.  Maybe the recent economic issues are skewing me, but a guarantee seems a lot more attractive then speculation.

But all of that is near useless since apparently the marlins wouldnt even listen.  So here's to Buch figuring out what has been ailing him, and to Lars bashing balls all around Fenway in the near future.

[nickagneta]

 Lars may turn out to something or he may not.  same with Buch.  But Hanley already is something. 

I think that this argument is what seperates me from the rest here. I don't see Buchholz's complete dominance of the minors, or Anderson's destruction of AA pitching ( combined with extensive scouting, non-Sox even, which almost unanimously agree that he projects to be a monster bat at the MLB level) as some 50/50 chance lotto ticket situation. They're on the path to being all-star caliber players. Buchholz had a hiccup and Lars is a year away from mashing in Boston as I see it. Scoff all you want. Just look at the Sox track record of their development of prospects lately. They've put their money where their mouth is. Hanley Ramirez would be a shining example.

For the record, I am believing the hype that these guys will turn out to their highest potential.  but dont forget, it is only potential.  For every Hanley, Pedroia, etc...There are guys like Craig Hansen (closer of future, ready to pitch immediately after the draft, blah blah...Brian Rose won 17 games for the pawsox in 1997, never turned into anything.  Rose and Pavano were supposed to anchor Boston's rotation for YEARS., Andy Marte, supposedly the greatest power hitter in the minors when he was acquired, played 3b, supposedly a sure thing, failed miserably). 

Cant miss prospects fail all the time.  probably more often then they succeed.  That is all my point was.  If both Lars and Buch reach their potential then you have maybe, maybe made a bad trade.  but if one fails to reach their potential then it is a great trade.  and if something happens and both fail to reach that potential, well then not moving them for a proven all star, MVP caliber, young player turns out to be horrible.  Speculation v. Guarantee.  Maybe the recent economic issues are skewing me, but a guarantee seems a lot more attractive then speculation.

But all of that is near useless since apparently the marlins wouldnt even listen.  So here's to Buch figuring out what has been ailing him, and to Lars bashing balls all around Fenway in the near future.

Exactly! A proposed trade that brings in Hanley and gives up Buchholz, Andersen, and say a Bowden isn't exactly equal to a Lowe/Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb trade. Ramirez would be an almost guaranteed MVP candidate here for every year he is signed not a wash up waste like Slocunb was. And Buchholz, Andersen, and Bowden could turn out to have careers as good as Varitek and Lowe but they very well may not either. And even if they did, if Hanley won two MVPs while he was here it could still be argued that it was a trade that benefited both teams.

There's no guarantee that Buchholz, Bowden, or Andersen will become superstars or if they do that it will be here. There's a ton of talent with championship rings playing on the depth charts in Boston ahead of these guys and those guys in Boston aren't exactly old. As much as a trade for Ramirez isn't going to happen I would have no problem with the Sox trading these types of prospects for proven current All-Stars that will enhance our current and soon to be future chances of winning another title.