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Author Topic: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!  (Read 25953 times)

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Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« on: December 16, 2008, 05:16:59 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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I will preface this by saying that I have not been a fan of TA's game since he came back from the first surgery. I think that is pretty well known. I also must say that I think at times he has shown a little improvement this year over last, so there definitely has been something to him not having been fully healthy last season. I do however ask the question if he is right now as good as he will ever get?!

TA is still exactly the same player we have pulled our hair out the past few years. He can take it to the rim and at times finishes very well. The other half of the time he seems completely out of control and is the Turnover Tony we all know and love. You would think he would get better at this seeing as he should be gaining more basketball experience out there and knows when to pull up and when to continue to go to the rim. He has more turnovers than assists thanks to his constant charges, he still isn't a reliable outside shooter. He still too often comes back down the floor with that bewildered look on his face as he can't figure out why he turned the ball over again. That look that makes we want to punch him in the head!

I really think he is as good as he will ever be. That isn't a horrible player, but just one that makes us take the good with the bad. He has a very quick first step to the basket. He hits a solid 75% from the foul line and usually ones at the end of the game. He plays solid defense. He can explode with 15-20 pts on occasion. There are things to like about him. He does drive me nuts though and I sure wish Bill Walker would hurry up and get some experience, because I think he will be a much better player and fill that same role...


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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM »

Offline Sweet17

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No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2008, 05:44:03 PM »

Offline makaveli

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Tony is doing a great job 70-80 % of his minutes 5-15 % he's doing an amazing job scoring and 5-10% he's bad, so I'd say he is above average bench player.
Yes he sometimes bugs me with his unorthodox layup angels but usualy he gets the job done, and I don't think this is as good as he can be...not by far
And why would you want to change our rotation(players) when it finnaly has head and tail, and we are winning everything out there...
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2008, 05:51:49 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Quote from: makaveli on December 16, 2008, 05:44:03 PM
Tony is doing a great job 70-80 % of his minutes 5-15 % he's doing an amazing job scoring and 5-10% he's bad, so I'd say he is above average bench player.
Yes he sometimes bugs me with his unorthodox layup angels but usualy he gets the job done, and I don't think this is as good as he can be...not by far
And why would you want to change our rotation(players) when it finnaly has head and tail, and we are winning everything out there...

We are currently winning most games in SPITE of our bench play. It is getting a little better, but that isn't a big strength right now. If you look at his actual games, he is bad about HALF of them, not 5-10%. I don't necessarily want to dramatically change our rotation, rather have TA show up to most of the games.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2008, 05:52:29 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Quote from: Sweet17 on December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM
No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.

Leon Powe has been our best bench player closely followed if not tied by House. TA is a distant third.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2008, 05:53:59 PM »

Offline cordobes

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The chances of Bill Walker ever being as good defensively as Tony Allen are basically non-existent, I think.

Well, he can improve, but not by a lot. The biggest improvement he could make in the short/mid-term would not exactly be in technical skill-set but in the way he plays the game. He's wildly inconsistent. Even All-Stars have off games, many subs are inconsistent, but Allen has just too many games where his impact is negative. I genuinely think that Tony Allen believes he's much better than he is and that impacts his game; for example, he makes those dribble drives like he's Wade, Manu or Pierce that lead to the turnovers.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2008, 06:12:42 PM »

Offline Chris

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Quote from: cordobes on December 16, 2008, 05:53:59 PM
The chances of Bill Walker ever being as good defensively as Tony Allen are basically non-existent, I think.


I disagree.  The chances of Walker ever being as good defensively as Tony Allen could be if he learned to focus are pretty low, but  as long as Tony continues to miss his assignments and let his men constantly beat him backdoor, Walker can certainly catch up to him.

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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2008, 06:30:25 PM »

Offline cordobes

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Quote from: Chris on December 16, 2008, 06:12:42 PM
Quote from: cordobes on December 16, 2008, 05:53:59 PM
The chances of Bill Walker ever being as good defensively as Tony Allen are basically non-existent, I think.


I disagree.  The chances of Walker ever being as good defensively as Tony Allen could be if he learned to focus are pretty low, but  as long as Tony continues to miss his assignments and let his men constantly beat him backdoor, Walker can certainly catch up to him.



Meh.. he doesn't have the lateral quickness or the mobility to be nearly as good as Allen as an individual defender. I was not factoring Allen's mental lapses though, but I don't think that changes things so much. And Walker has the exact same kind of lapses, even in a more severe degree.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2008, 06:40:36 PM by cordobes »
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2008, 06:58:58 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Quote from: EJPLAYA on December 16, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: Sweet17 on December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM
No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.

Leon Powe has been our best bench player closely followed if not tied by House. TA is a distant third.

  Based on what? Tony's the best defender out of the three. They all score equally per minute but Tony's been the most consistent scorer of them. Leon averages more turnovers than Tony, who A) has only had more than 2 turnovers twice all year (3 both times) and B) only has 1 more turnover than steals for the year. He's not perfect, and sometimes he tries to do too much but he hasn't been bad.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2008, 07:13:21 PM »

Offline SalmonAndMashedPotatoes

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Quote from: EJPLAYA on December 16, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: Sweet17 on December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM
No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.

Leon Powe has been our best bench player closely followed if not tied by House. TA is a distant third.

Based off what, your personal preference?  TA's the 2nd unit's best scorer, dribble penetrator, creator, and defender, at least if you go by what Doc and the statistics say.  But what do they know?

I'm positive TA is going to get better than he's currently showing.  His jumper still isn't where it should be, he's still regaining his health (from his recent ankle sprain--and the knee too), and Doc has yet to really figure out his place in the offense.  And if we had an actual point guard on the 2nd unit, he might be able to actually settle into a real role.  Doc's asking him to do a lot out there given House's deficiencies, and Tony's responding well, minus the last couple games which can be chalked up to coming back from an injury. 

And if you what to make the go-to Posey comparison, note that Tony's averaging more points, steals and blocks than James did last season in about 5 minutes less per game.  Other than personal preference/bias, I'm not really sure what anti-Tony crowd can point to...TA's played decent-to-good given the 2nd team's deficiencies, and he's only going to get better throughout the season as the 2nd team continues to build chemistry and TA continues to build strength and confidence.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2008, 07:19:21 PM »

Offline cornbreadsmart

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 i would say he should be able to be a better shooter but i think we probably would have seen that by now. i personally think his shot is a mess. to me it looks like he's releasing the ball almost on the way down from his jump. not fluid at all.
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2008, 07:33:33 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Quote from: BballTim on December 16, 2008, 06:58:58 PM
Quote from: EJPLAYA on December 16, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: Sweet17 on December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM
No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.

Leon Powe has been our best bench player closely followed if not tied by House. TA is a distant third.

  Based on what? Tony's the best defender out of the three. They all score equally per minute but Tony's been the most consistent scorer of them. Leon averages more turnovers than Tony, who A) has only had more than 2 turnovers twice all year (3 both times) and B) only has 1 more turnover than steals for the year. He's not perfect, and sometimes he tries to do too much but he hasn't been bad.

Based on a couple things. Tony hasn't been consistent at all. He has games where he is putting up numbers, but a third of his games he has 4 pts or less. A negative assist to turnover ratio is not good. He continues to lower his head and commit charges. He is still well deserving of Turnover Tony.

Powe on the other hand doesn't have the same control of his touches TA does. He has to wait for someone to drop the ball down into him, or collect the offensive rebounds. When given the ball down low he has been very consistent all year. TA takes almost twice as many shots a game as Leon does. He should score more.

House has gotten better and better as the season progresses with his fg% for a guy who shoots half of his shots from 3, 50% + is very good. He has a 2-1 turnover to assist ratio. He brings the whole package. Energy, hustle, big shots.

I did not say TA doesn't add value out there. He does. I just think that he is the third most important person on that second unit. If we didn't have him we'd be in trouble many of the games. I just think this is what you get with TA. Some good plays, some maddening ones.


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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2008, 07:39:55 PM »

Offline EJPLAYA

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Quote from: SalmonAndMashedPotatoes on December 16, 2008, 07:13:21 PM
Quote from: EJPLAYA on December 16, 2008, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: Sweet17 on December 16, 2008, 05:41:11 PM
No. I think his jump shot can improve so he isn't at his limit yet. I would also say that he has been our best bench player. I also don't think you can expect bench players to be super consistent. NBA players hit shots in spurts - so with less time the numbers they put up will be inconsistent.

Leon Powe has been our best bench player closely followed if not tied by House. TA is a distant third.

Based off what, your personal preference?  TA's the 2nd unit's best scorer, dribble penetrator, creator, and defender, at least if you go by what Doc and the statistics say.  But what do they know?

I'm positive TA is going to get better than he's currently showing.  His jumper still isn't where it should be, he's still regaining his health (from his recent ankle sprain--and the knee too), and Doc has yet to really figure out his place in the offense.  And if we had an actual point guard on the 2nd unit, he might be able to actually settle into a real role.  Doc's asking him to do a lot out there given House's deficiencies, and Tony's responding well, minus the last couple games which can be chalked up to coming back from an injury. 

And if you what to make the go-to Posey comparison, note that Tony's averaging more points, steals and blocks than James did last season in about 5 minutes less per game.  Other than personal preference/bias, I'm not really sure what anti-Tony crowd can point to...TA's played decent-to-good given the 2nd team's deficiencies, and he's only going to get better throughout the season as the 2nd team continues to build chemistry and TA continues to build strength and confidence.

TA's turnover to assist ratio is worse this year than last. He is taking more shots this year than last.

Since TA is so great, why don't we call up New Orleans and offer TA straight across for Posey... Come on. Get real. If you are trying to prove your point with stats, and not overall contributions, then there is no wonder you think he adds more overall than Powe and House. POB is averaging 2 pts, and 1.5 rebounds in 4 minutes while shooting 67% from the floor. Let's give him BBD's 16 min a game and he will average 8 and 6... Then He will be better than TA as well...
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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2008, 07:44:47 PM »

Online JBcat

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I would like his assists numbers to be up for sure but I think his turnovers are being a little overplayed here at least for this year.  He averages 1.3 turnovers per 19.6 MPG per game.  In comparison Paul is averaging 2.8 TO in 37.1 MPG, Perk 2.3 in 28 MPG, Rondo 2.2 in 31.2 MPG, KG 2.0 in 32.9 MPG.   For a wing player who sometimes runs the offense I'm fine with his turnovers this year.  I don't think it will ever be great but I can live with this.

He gets to the line at a pretty good clip and has a good FG% and I really believe he will improve.   As someone has already said he doesn't have complete confidence yet back in his outside shot and I think that will come in time although I don't think he'll ever be a real good 3 point shooter.   He is not the normal 26 year old with the set back with injuries so to say this will be as good as he'll ever be could be shortsighted on our part.  

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Re: Is TA Right Now as Good as He will Ever Get?!
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2008, 08:08:46 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

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for those interesting such things..

house
min 17  pts 7.5  rbs 1.6  ast 1.3 stl 1.0

allen
min 19  pts 8.4  rbs 2.2 ast 1.0 stl 1.3

powe
min 16  pts 6.8  rbs 3.7  ast 0.6  stl 0.3

all per game, all this season.
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