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The "weak" bench
« on: November 26, 2008, 12:27:16 PM »

Offline drza44

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One of the most common criticisms for this year's Celtics is that their bench got weaker with the losses of James Posey and PJ Brown.  I've seen discussions on whether Tony Allen can replace/is worse than/is better than Posey, but I haven't really seen much light shed upon the most important thing: how the bench as a whole works.

Last season, by playoffs time, the Cs' bench was IMO like a team of specialists without an underlying theme.  Doc kind of reached down the bench and chose a specialist at need, but there wasn't much continuity.  Posey was the constant: the first wing off the bench, strong and versatile defender (from SG to PF), clutch spot-up shooter from 3-point range.  You had two shoot-first back-up PGs, one (Cassell) that dominated the ball and shot a lot but in theory was a better ball-handler, the other (House) that liked to spot-up shoot a lot.  Allen was a tweener back-up in every way, playing some PG (not well), tentatively driving out of control (an oxymoron caused in part by his knee making him tentative, and in part because the 2nd unit didn't have much room for his scoring mindset next to Cassell), and playing spurts of tough defense.  And in the frontcourt we had an inexperienced (read: inconsistent) two-some in scorer Leon Powe and wide body Glen Davis, then when PJ Brown came along he added the experience but further muddied Powe's and Davis' roles to the point that neither seemed confident or proficient on a consistent basis.

The Cs made it work, and the bench was a net positive against the Lakers, but it was FAR from an ideal situation.

This season, people have focused on the fact that Posey and Brown aren't here, and the loss of what they brought to the table as individuals.  While there is definitely truth that their skill sets could be missed, this type of analysis smacks to me of the position-by-position matchups that many like to do when comparing teams (i.e. Rondo = Fisher, Kobe > Allen, Pierce > Vlad, KG > Odom, Pau > Perk, etc.) that to me miss so much of the point.

Because this season, the Cs have a bench with a purpose and definite roles.  On the second unit, House is the long-range gunner that hassles opposing PGs on defense.  Tony Allen is the penetrator that breaks down the defense and gets to the rim, while aggressively defending the opposing wing.  Either Pierce or Ray Allen stays in the game as the overall offensive engine that drives the unit.  Powe is the low-post scorer/hustle rebounder.  And Big Baby is the big body that throws his weight around in the paint on defense, but operates a lot in the high post on offense to open up room for Powe.  Even (shockingly) Scal seems to be growing into a 10th man role as a back-up hustle forward that is consistently hitting the 3.

The point is, Posey and Brown have skill sets that will be missed.  Brown in particular, as the part of our bench that could most be upgraded is the height/length at the big man spot.  But as a whole, I think the bench unit this year works better than last year's.  Everyone knows their roles, there is much more balance (i.e. last year the only consistent bench offense was long jumpers, and if they weren't falling there was nothing to hang their hat on), and this allows everyone to get into a rhythm with each other and the starters.  I don't know, I just think it's a bit ironic that one of the big perceived weaknesses of this team with respect to last one is actually (IMO) an area of greater strength.  And if we DO add a PJ-Brown type upgrade before the season is out (or even better, yet more unlikely, O'Bryant proves himself to be capable of a quality 10 minutes if needed) that would take care of the only question mark that I really have left.

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 01:41:57 PM »

Offline Redz

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I'll buy that for a dollar :D

Good post.  TP.

I miss Posey, but I hear ya.  Hopefully the bench can keep developing and become a huge force by playoff time.
Yup

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 02:51:02 PM »

Offline drza44

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Another thing.  One of the (many) reasons people had against Posey leaving was the loss of the small-ball versatility that he gave the Cs for a late-game team.  With KG in the middle on offense and defense, the Cs could run an explosive unit of 4 long-range shooters on offense while being quick and relentless on defense.  Tony Allen, while playing well this year, does not give the Cs such an option (as Pierce would have to play the PF and one of the 6-5 Allens the SF), so there have been concerns about our closing group.

But quietly, Leon Powe is stepping in to make that same type of unit work.  On defense Powe is similar sized to Posey but a better defender of PFs and better rebounder.  And on offense, Garnett is able to slide into perimeter-shooter role vacated by Posey with Powe sliding into KG's old role in the middle.  Many don't like that KG shoots so many jumpers, but you know what...he's darn good at them, and he's harder to double on the perimeter (leading to potential 1-on-1s like against Cleveland in the playoffs).  And Powe is great as a low-post scorer, so as a crunch-time unit this has possibilities.

Per 82games.com, through the first month of the season, the best 5-man unit in the NBA: Rondo, Ray, Pierce, KG, Powe

http://www.82games.com/0809/USORT13.HTM

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 01:54:58 AM »

Offline Tr1boy

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"weak" no more.

Most of us thought Scal, Davis, pruitt were all a joke but i guess these days the joke is on us. These guys are playing amazing for us , helping the starters from being worn down and giving us confidence as each game goes by that we can repeat again this year.

I still wouldn't mind getting joe smith or pj brown to shore up the pf/c position but it would be a dumb move if they went after crabury for example

Lastly wanted to say that doc is one lucky coach. Because it took tony allen's/perk injury and a losing streak for him to finally realize to trust his bench, utilize them properly and give the starters some freakign rest throughout the game. He needs to never forget his mistakes



Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 06:28:44 AM »

Offline kenmaine

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This is Not a weak bench. People here have been underestimating them all year. For goodness sake, they are not starters. They do not have to be all-stars.
I'll take Eddie House, Baby, Leon, Pruitt, Scal, and TA anytime for a bench.
And no, I'm not one who tries to rationalize and pretend that they don't miss Posey. I still think they should have signed him, but the C's are perfectly capable of winning another title as is. 


Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 07:42:43 AM »

Offline Michael Anthony

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LA & Cleveland have better benches, and that is our measuring stick.
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Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 07:46:09 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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The reason we're winning games is because the bench minutes are largely being minimized. They're not playing as a unit, because they're horrible as a 5-man group. Rivers is doing a better job sprinkling starters in with them.

Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 08:01:18 AM »

Offline Bankshot

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The reason we're winning games is because the bench minutes are largely being minimized. They're not playing as a unit, because they're horrible as a 5-man group. Rivers is doing a better job sprinkling starters in with them.



I agree with this.  I like the bench, but still don't think it's good enough.  Unless Pruitt steps it up, he's not good enough right now to back up Rondo in the playoffs.  I think we might have to solve the backup SF position from within.... keep feeding Walker minutes to see if a combo of he and Tony can handle the job.
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Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 08:03:13 AM »

Offline crownsy

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The reason we're winning games is because the bench minutes are largely being minimized. They're not playing as a unit, because they're horrible as a 5-man group. Rivers is doing a better job sprinkling starters in with them.



I agree with this.  I like the bench, but still don't think it's good enough.  Unless Pruitt steps it up, he's not good enough right now to back up Rondo in the playoffs.  I think we might have to solve the backup SF position from within.... keep feeding Walker minutes to see if a combo of he and Tony can handle the job.

Ta is a horrid 3. i'd rather se walker-scal than walker-ta at those minutes.
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Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2009, 08:08:24 AM »

Offline Roy Hobbs

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Quote
Everyone knows their roles, there is much more balance (i.e. last year the only consistent bench offense was long jumpers, and if they weren't falling there was nothing to hang their hat on), and this allows everyone to get into a rhythm with each other and the starters.

Except in small stretches, I haven't seen a lot of offensive flow or rhythm from the bench, though.  When our role players are playing with the starters, they've looked pretty good, and in general the bench has played well recently.  However, on the whole, it seems as though the offense has stagnated with the "second unit" in there over the course of the season. 

Our bench has a lot of players who can fill specific roles, as you've said.  Those players play best when they're beside other, more complete players, rather than three or four other role players.  When BBD, Powe, TA, and Eddie are all on the floor at the same time, there has been a lot of inconsistency and at times, some pretty terrible performances.

I like the way BBD, Scal, and House have all been playing recently, but overall, I'd prefer last year's bench, without question.

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Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2009, 08:10:31 AM »

Offline kenmaine

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LA & Cleveland have better benches, and that is our measuring stick.
And probably a few other teams benches might be better too(I doubt it though), but no, that's not the measuring stick.
 The measuring stick is winning the game! The benches are there to hold the fort while the regulars rest. Anything more than that is gravy.
I know that's an oversimplification, but people worry way too much about the bench. And the bench is fine.

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2009, 08:24:55 AM »

Offline xmuscularghandix

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know your role.

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2009, 08:31:18 AM »

Offline dark_lord

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i wouldnt say our bench is weak, but it is inconsistent, which is a major concern when ur in the playoffs.  i think doc is doing a better job of mixing the starters with some of the reserves to keep some consistency on both ends of the floor, as opposed to having 5 bench players out there together or 4 bench players with either paul or ray.  plus it helps that tony is not playing.

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2009, 08:31:41 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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Quote
Everyone knows their roles, there is much more balance (i.e. last year the only consistent bench offense was long jumpers, and if they weren't falling there was nothing to hang their hat on), and this allows everyone to get into a rhythm with each other and the starters.

Except in small stretches, I haven't seen a lot of offensive flow or rhythm from the bench, though.  When our role players are playing with the starters, they've looked pretty good, and in general the bench has played well recently.  However, on the whole, it seems as though the offense has stagnated with the "second unit" in there over the course of the season. 

Our bench has a lot of players who can fill specific roles, as you've said.  Those players play best when they're beside other, more complete players, rather than three or four other role players.  When BBD, Powe, TA, and Eddie are all on the floor at the same time, there has been a lot of inconsistency and at times, some pretty terrible performances.

I like the way BBD, Scal, and House have all been playing recently, but overall, I'd prefer last year's bench, without question.

Right. Some individuals have been playing better as of late, but we still must have a competent backup 5 to compete in the playoffs, and probably help at the 1 or 2. This bench is sorely deficient in both areas, it has been all season and it shouldn't have been constructed this way.
Coined the CelticsBlog term, "Euromistake."

Re: The "weak" bench
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2009, 08:40:46 AM »

Offline BballTim

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The reason we're winning games is because the bench minutes are largely being minimized. They're not playing as a unit, because they're horrible as a 5-man group. Rivers is doing a better job sprinkling starters in with them.

  They're not playing as a unit but they're playing about the same number of minutes. I don't think most teams play 5-man reserve units for long stretches of time.