Is there or should there be a Turnovers Created statistic??

[nickagneta]

As I was watching the end of the ballgame last night a couple of plays stuck out to me. They were plays where one of the Celtics played excellent defense and poked the ball away only to have another team mate end up snagging the ball and the Steal statistic. Now the player with the steal didn't do anything particularly outstanding but since they ended up with the ball, they got the steal and hence the stat.

But what does the other guy get? He did most of the work and was the one that played the great defense that led to the Turnover in the first place.

I went looking with a couple of very simple Google searches and couldn't find any sabermetric basketball stat such as Turnovers Created. Maybe one exists and I just didn't do enough research but I think this would be a very telling and important defensive statistic.

For example, I noticed last year a couple of games where Leon Powe had a stellar performance that evening but didn't get nearly the statistical evidence to point to such a performance. His stat line ended up something like(and this is a made up thing to illustrate a point)

15 MIN, 4 PTS, 3 REBS, 1 ST, 1 AST.

Now if Turnovers Created(TC) were a stat he might have gotten credit for the 4 passes he deflected into the hands of his teammates for Steals, the 1 pass he stole outright and the three charges he created by stepping in front of someone and creating a offensive foul to be called on that player.

Now add on a a stat called TC to his line and suddenly you might have a much better idea as to the role he played in the game and just how important he was in the game

15 MIN, 4 PTS, 3 REBS, 1 ST, 1 AST, 8 TC.

The man created 8 turnovers. He created, all by himself, 8 extra possessions for his team in just 15 minutes of play. I think this would be a much more telling defensive stat than just Steals or Blocks are considered.

So, should I lobby to have this stat enacted and tallied(or maybe it already is and I just haven't found it) or is it just another case of over-analyzation of a sport that might already be saturated with useless statistics?

[crownsy]

As I was watching the end of the ballgame last night a couple of plays stuck out to me. They were plays where one of the Celtics played excellent defense and poked the ball away only to have another team mate end up snagging the ball and the Steal statistic. Now the player with the steal didn't do anything particularly outstanding but since they ended up with the ball, they got the steal and hence the stat.

But what does the other guy get? He did most of the work and was the one that played the great defense that led to the Turnover in the first place.

I went looking with a couple of very simple Google searches and couldn't find any sabermetric basketball stat such as Turnovers Created. Maybe one exists and I just didn't do enough research but I think this would be a very telling and important defensive statistic.

For example, I noticed last year a couple of games where Leon Powe had a stellar performance that evening but didn't get nearly the statistical evidence to point to such a performance. His stat line ended up something like(and this is a made up thing to illustrate a point)

15 MIN, 4 PTS, 3 REBS, 1 ST, 1 AST.

Now if Turnovers Created(TC) were a stat he might have gotten credit for the 4 passes he deflected into the hands of his teammates for Steals, the 1 pass he stole outright and the three charges he created by stepping in front of someone and creating a offensive foul to be called on that player.

Now add on a a stat called TC to his line and suddenly you might have a much better idea as to the role he played in the game and just how important he was in the game

15 MIN, 4 PTS, 3 REBS, 1 ST, 1 AST, 8 TC.

The man created 8 turnovers. He created, all by himself, 8 extra possessions for his team in just 15 minutes of play. I think this would be a much more telling defensive stat than just Steals or Blocks are considered.

So, should I lobby to have this stat enacted and tallied(or maybe it already is and I just haven't found it) or is it just another case of over-analyzation of a sport that might already be saturated with useless statistics?

i seconed this motion via TP4U.

just last night, walker had 2 poke aways that other teamates snagged in his limited minutes. one was an absolute joke where he played great one on one defense, poked it out, and it rolled over to eddie who didnt even see it till it hit his foot and he snagged it. ridiculous that walker gets nothing for that and eddie gets a "oh look what i found!!" steal. they should both get something.

mabey we could call it something liek the NFL, which counts pass defelctions. so if one guy tips it up and another guy benifits, they both get a mark on the ole' stat sheet.

[indeedproceed]

In the NFL hurries is a statistic kept by teams, but not given to individuals. However, they cause the majority of interceptions.

I think you should get a half steal in the walker situation.

[Kwhit10]

Yea I've always had this in the back of my mind too.  Always wondering why the person who picks up the loose ball from a tip and whatnot gets the steal.  I like how IP said give .5 for like a steal assist. 

[Sweet17]

I don't think there is. This would take additional tracking of the games that's not currently taking place. While they could add things in like "turnovers created" or 'shots altered" or perhaps "good pick set" and of course the famous "pass that leads to an assist"..I doubt they wil.

Don't get me wrong. I think properly done this could certainly add to the statistical understanding of the game. But in practice we know who the good defenders are - as the team units benefit. Not only that but such statistic do tend to even out. Guys who make assists that lead to assists also tend to make alot of assists (as they are good passers). Guys who create turnovers - also get steals as they are good defenders.

So while such statistics would help things - I don't imagine they will be created. Even if they are they will be for internal use only.

Pete

[JBcat]

I think coaches and teams keep track of this an just call it deflections.   It's not a stat we are ever going to see but I've heard coaches talk about the number of deflections before. 

[nickagneta]

I think deflections are tabbed by teams, or at least some. But there are other ways to cause a turnover, like taking a charge or hitting a ball off the opponents body out of bounds. I understand not all turnovers are forced by defenders(bad passes, traveling, three second violations) but many are and I think it would go a long way to giving credit to players for their defensive work. So many of the stats in basketball, heck almost all, are offensively related. I think a simple defensive one like this would be cool to confirm just how good some defenders are and how bad some defenders are.

Case in point would be that some people are great shot blockers but are awful defenders. Many people point to blocked shots and steals as proof of defensive acuity but in reality forcing a turnover shows so much more. It proves that one player, by themselves was responsible for his team having more possessions of the ball. Turnovers are kept for each player. Why not TC's?

[Sweet17]

Case in point would be that some people are great shot blockers but are awful defenders. Many people point to blocked shots and steals as proof of defensive acuity but in reality forcing a turnover shows so much more. It proves that one player, by themselves was responsible for his team having more possessions of the ball. Turnovers are kept for each player. Why not TC's?

It's exceedingly rare that a great steal guy or shot blocker is a bad defender. People like to point to Marcus Camby - but I don't buy it. Sometimes good defenders can get stuck on bad defensive teams. That was the case with Camby and Denver.

On the C's - TA racks up a large amount of steals. I watch him carefully and he creates turnovers as well. He disrupts plays. A good ballhawk - and a good defender. That's how it normally is.

I guess the best example of a good shot blocker and a bad defender was Raef Lafrenz. But even then I am not sure he was "great" shot blocker - and that he was always a BAD defender.

[ManUp]

It would definitely be a great statistic. I think a stat like that would become, to defense, the equivalent of points on offense. It would really cover a lot of the defensive "intangibles" that don's show on the stat sheets.

I also think it would encourage better defense. Players who care more about statistics than defense would now have an incentive to play better D, and still pad their stats. The players who play solid defense would be rewarded statistically for their efforts.

On the flip side to that argument it might encourage gambling type defenses, now that I think about it. Either way Rondo would be a beast in such a statistical category, no doubt.   

[nickagneta]

Case in point would be that some people are great shot blockers but are awful defenders. Many people point to blocked shots and steals as proof of defensive acuity but in reality forcing a turnover shows so much more. It proves that one player, by themselves was responsible for his team having more possessions of the ball. Turnovers are kept for each player. Why not TC's?

It's exceedingly rare that a great steal guy or shot blocker is a bad defender. People like to point to Marcus Camby - but I don't buy it. Sometimes good defenders can get stuck on bad defensive teams. That was the case with Camby and Denver.

On the C's - TA racks up a large amount of steals. I watch him carefully and he creates turnovers as well. He disrupts plays. A good ballhawk - and a good defender. That's how it normally is.

I guess the best example of a good shot blocker and a bad defender was Raef Lafrenz. But even then I am not sure he was "great" shot blocker - and that he was always a BAD defender.

Marcus Camby is a great shot blocker but he is only a good defender. His shot blocking comes from a lot of weak side help but as a man defender in the post, he is rather average. I don't think he ever deserved the DPOY award.

Tracey McGrady for year's has put up numbers of around 1 BPG and 1.5 STPG and people have pointed towards those numbers as proof that he's a good defender. He's not.

Lot's of big men average around a steal per game or so but my guess is at least half of those steals are the result of other people knocking the ball away from other players and having the big guy pick up the ball. Yes the truly great steal guys are good defenders and more than likely would be huge TC guys. But I think the stat would shed some light on just how good of a defender the shot blockers and guys with mediocre steals numbers are.

[Fan from VT]

I like the idea of adding any measurable stats, and i think such stats will eventually be tracked to give more complete ideas of a player's ability. This specific example may need an independent scorer, as in baseball, to determine which players gets what amount of credit for a steal. Judgement instead of a hard and fast rule.

The first stat that I believe should be added is "assists leading to free throws" and "weighted for 3 pointers." Considering that some people already adjust shooting percentage to include 3 pointers and free throws, I can see adjusting assists as well. How often do you see a great pass lead to a layup where the defense's only option is to foul. passer gets no credit for creating the free throws.

another assist stat that would be harder to measure but interesting would be "open shots created." this would give credit to players who create good shots but whose teammates are bad shooters.

[nickagneta]

I like the idea of adding any measurable stats, and i think such stats will eventually be tracked to give more complete ideas of a player's ability. This specific example may need an independent scorer, as in baseball, to determine which players gets what amount of credit for a steal. Judgement instead of a hard and fast rule.

The first stat that I believe should be added is "assists leading to free throws" and "weighted for 3 pointers." Considering that some people already adjust shooting percentage to include 3 pointers and free throws, I can see adjusting assists as well. How often do you see a great pass lead to a layup where the defense's only option is to foul. passer gets no credit for creating the free throws.

another assist stat that would be harder to measure but interesting would be "open shots created." this would give credit to players who create good shots but whose teammates are bad shooters.

I really like the weighted assist for the three pointer idea though in many cases it is just a guy moving a ball around the perimeter 10 feet while a guy hoists up an ill advised three that happens to go in.

On second thought maybe assists should stay where they are. Not sure but it would be interesting to see just how many points assists(and in your case of assists for free throws) create. Of course do you only give the guy half of an assist if the player makes only 1 of 2 or no assist if the player misses both FTs?